18 Replies Latest reply on Aug 2, 2016 9:37 AM by Roei Tzoref

    Saving with transparent background

    Secttor Design Level 1

      Hi

      I'm trying to get a .gif file with my project from AE. I'm saving as .tiff/.png and import it in PS as image sequence. The ideea is that I get a black background even RGB+Alpha is set on export in AE. What I'm missing here? Also.. which settings must be used for highest quality results ?

      Thanks a lot!

      Untitled-6.jpg

        • 1. Re: Saving with transparent background
          Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

          Check the transparency settings when you import your stuff in PS and use the correct import method.

           

          Mylenium

          • 2. Re: Saving with transparent background
            Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional
            What I'm missing here?

            check 2 things:

            1. that you actually have alpha (I know it seems obvious, but still) - in the composition window press the checkerboard symbol

            2. on export I see that you are exporting Alpha - that's all there is to check:

             

            which settings must be used for highest quality results ?

            any of the lossless codecs will do just fine. don't bother with a sequence, you can do this with a container codec such as Qt Animation - if it's a GIF it will be short so this codec is one of the fastest and reliable there is and supports Alpha of course.

             

            if all of this does not help, please provide a full screenshot of the Ae interface and the phothshop interface (Timeline/layers/project window - everything) and also the project file.

            • 3. Re: Saving with transparent background
              Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Roei almost has the correct output module settings. For some unknown and illogical reason the Default Color mode when you select RGB + Alpha is Premultiplied (Matted). Many users, including yours truly, have been lobbying for a change in the presets for many years. The color mode should be changed to Straight (Unmated). Here are my settings for one of my most used presets with alpha. QuickTime Jpeg 2000:

              Screen Shot 2016-07-30 at 9.33.00 AM.png

              There are several formats that support alpha channels. I would suggest that you pick one that will work well with your workflow and the workflow of anyone you share files with.

               

              All, and I mean ALL compositing apps and Non Linear Editors and 3D apps work natively with Straight Alpha Channels. As soon as I install AE the first thing I do is edit the default templates and change all of the color modes to Straight alpha for all presets exporting with alpha channels.

               

              Why is Pre-multiplied wrong? Because it makes color changes to the anti aliased edges of the RGB pixels at the edge of the matte. This effectively shrinks your matte or puts a colored edge on it. In all my years working with digital composites I have never intentionally rendered a Premultiplied matte, I have only struggled with fixing the rendered files when someone has sent me footage that was rendered incorrectly. When working with Nuke for example, if you have footage that was Pre-multiplied then you'll have to add an additional node to fix the problem. If you are in AE or Premiere Pro you will either need to add an effect or mess with interpretation to fix the problems.

               

              Here's two sources for more info: Atrbeats Article and an article from Pro Video Coalition

               

              There is only one reason to render a premultiplied matte - to match the background color of the background you are going to add to the footage after you render. It makes no sense for white or black, and it takes a bunch of work in AE to choose another color, and if the color isn't a perfect match then you still may have to deal with the funky edges.

              • 4. Re: Saving with transparent background
                Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                Thank you Rick. I have found that in my experience that the only time Premultiplied gave me trouble was when there was semi transparent areas and only when the NLE was AVID. so unless this is the case, Premultiplied was fine i.e the footage interprets fine. this is a test rendering QT+Animation Alpha Straight vs Premultiplied in Ae and then imported to PS - they look exactly the same:

                 

                zoom up almost 500% percent against a black background - edges look fine:

                so one could say the best bet is to render straight anyway and I guess he could be correct. but my experience and the example here show that it is also fine otherwise on many cases. what do you make of this?

                • 5. Re: Saving with transparent background
                  Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  I've been doing composites professionally for more than 40 years and have been working with AE since it was a COSA product and permultiplied is not and never was the standard.

                   

                  Send pre-multiplied to a production house and they probably will not give you another contract because you just added time to their post process. Your screenshots are interesting but don't really demonstrate the problem. Check out the article and watch the videos. Most of them tell you how to deal with the problem.

                   

                  The Atrbeats article I quoted clearly says in about the second paragraph that straight is preferred. As I stated before the only reason at all to ever use pre-multiplied is if you know exactly what the background color is going to be in the composite.  Even then, you can get a better product with straight Alpha.

                   

                  "Fine in otherwise on many cases" is not as wise as industry standard and preferred. The pre-multiplied with Alpha  as been the default from day one and no professional that I know or have ever met thinks that it should be  default. The plabt has just never taken the time to fix it. We can only hope.

                   

                  the plabt lover (@bvrcoe) | Twitter

                  • 6. Re: Saving with transparent background
                    Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional
                    Send pre-multiplied to a production house and they won't give you another contract because you just added time to their post process.

                    I love it when your are so decisive, Rick!   I have been doing this for 13 years. not 40, but yes - premultiplied worked fine and unless there is a reason to do otherwise, and you know what you are doing (with respect to the format and standards you are asked to deliver) - it does a good job and that's the truth. no post production house broke off my contracts and I have worked with plenty. please just try to write to the point - I know this is hard for you because you do love to talk about yourself and make decisive remarks as if the truth is one sided and you know ALL OF IT.

                     

                    the point being made here is the examples I have given you that clearly show there is no harm by rendering premultiplied and importing to photoshop vs straight. and maybe, just maybe the Adobe team that has been manufacturing this software for 23 years has a reason for it to be Pretty Multiplied (it does look pretty on preview) as default, and millions of users that keep this preset and render premultiplied have work and contracts. so please just save the sermons and just talk facts.

                     

                    I know some of these videos and articles and they clearly state that as long as the footage is interpreted correctly - the result should be fine. I guess straight alpha leaves no room for mistake so like I said - this maybe the safest bet, but is not necessary in many cases. and this is the case as well with a rendered footage from AE to PS. but I am open for debate (Facts please, and not "20 years I have been", "40 years and never", "nobody I know", "no post house" etc. etc. yawn )

                     

                    you have your way of working but you are not the only employed professional out there so please, with all due respect (and there is MUCH to pay), just take a step back and try to give us some of that great knowledge you have minus the condescending arrogant irrelevant remarks.

                     

                    and what in god's name is a plabt lover ?

                     

                    and I'll just leave this here:

                    • 7. Re: Saving with transparent background
                      Secttor Design Level 1

                      Hi.. I'm using all your requirements but I have a few glitches on results as can be seen. Below are my settings for export & settings for saving from PS. Also.. the .gif got 33.5mb which is pretty much. I really don't know that I'm doing wrong here.. also .. quality for my animation is not the best as I've expected.

                      Thanks for any suggestion!

                      My result : http://www.filedropper.com/untitled-2_1

                      Untitled-3.png

                      • 8. Re: Saving with transparent background
                        Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                        glad you came back, I was thinking that as usual the thread will be just a two geeks having a cock fight and Op will be stranded.

                         

                        first - you uploaded a PNG screenshots file 7.7MB! you are blocking traffic here buddy . the thread takes forever to load. no to mention clicking on it. don't worry - even Rick here made that mistake so you are in good company. just save your screen shots as a JPG next time and it will be 5% size and same quality.

                         

                        ABOUT GIF

                        well, you need to learn how to swim before you jump to the GIF pool. obviously your resolution, timespam, framerate and all these things take up disk space. first read trough here: http://design.tutsplus.com/tutorials/10-ways-to-optimize-an-animated-gif-file--psd-34649

                         

                        here are my observation after looking at your screenshots:

                        1. Resolution - 1000x1000 pixels - this is HUGH! you don't need that many. actually you are better off determining the size in Ae - why work so big if you need it to be small eventually? this makes everything take more time. if you need a certain resolution - make a habit of setting it first before you do anything. now that you have such a big video, you could do that in Photoshop by just right clicking on the header and change the image size. I am thinking 250x250 is more than enough. if you need it smaller do that first. BTW try not to do that in the save for web dialog because it will take more time, and every time you change a settings it will have to load it all over again.

                         

                        2. Duration and Frame count - 238 frames at 30fps - almost 8 seconds. maybe this could be shorter? could you make it 4 seconds? (in Ae) every frame counts.  also, you could lower the fps (in photoshop) to 15fps and get half the size right there. it won't be that bad but it depends on your animation.

                         

                        other than that - try the advice on the link and see share the result after you implement what you can.

                        • 9. Re: Saving with transparent background
                          Secttor Design Level 1

                          Thanks for your quick reply!

                          My main worry is related to the glitches in the animation as shown in my link (My result :http://www.filedropper.com/untitled-2_1). With (black) background this doesn't happend.

                           

                          Required size : 1000x1000 pixels as much quality as possible.

                          Also.. saw that first 5 exported frames come with black-background..even if I open them in Ps looks ok.. wierd or ?

                          Untitled-1.jpg

                          Played a bit with settings from your link but.. no so much file-size decreased. I also attached my project..maybe you can have a look and give me some tips that could help. Thanks!

                           

                          http://www.filedropper.com/felderprojectmasterlightness_1 

                           

                          • 10. Re: Saving with transparent background
                            Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                            I opened the file - Untitled-2.gif it looks fine to me. I don't understand what the problem is right now. not sure about your workflow altogether. why are you exporting a Png Sequence, why are you looking at the thumbnails in Windows explorer as if they are so important, why would you need a GIF file that's 1000x1000 on transparent and weighs 30 MB? you need to give more details as to what are you trying to accomplish and what are your output constraints and why.

                            • 11. Re: Saving with transparent background
                              Secttor Design Level 1

                              I opened it with Chrome browser and looks ok.. seems that if you take a look over Untitled-2.gif  in windows there are problems during the animation..so this seems ok.

                              I'm trying to export without background..import image sequence in Ps, save as .gif with required resolution (1000x1000) and best image quality/lowest file size possible. So this is my..scope : an animated gif with transparent background, qood quality & low file-size.

                              • 12. Re: Saving with transparent background
                                Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                                here is the file 250x250 at 30fps frame rate with these settings:

                                 

                                 

                                looks fine and size is about 4 MB

                                logo.gif

                                 

                                are you SURE you need it 1000x1000 pixels? this is not a size for a GIF. the whole purpose of GIF is to show animation in a small size so it will download in a browser in a reasonable time. but if you must just work with 1000x1000 and it will be large size and looking fine.

                                • 13. Re: Saving with transparent background
                                  Secttor Design Level 1

                                  tell me please which format is recommended for exporting from AE..and which is your workflow. I'll tell my friend about resolution but I quess he wants something large to be able to resize with good quality under 1000x1000.

                                  I highly appreciate your support!

                                  • 14. Re: Saving with transparent background
                                    Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                                    Qt Animation that's quite enough for just bringing it to PS. 1000x1000 is not productive. what is this logo for? probably a website. he needs to ask you for specific output for his specific needs and not "bring it as large as you can". if he needs 25x25 or 48x48 then he should ask so. if he see he needs something else then he should ask that. taking your file and reusing it is not good option too as it will downgrade it's quality further. you are the last station so you should be given the exact output for final delivery of this file.

                                     

                                    you're welcome! GIF's are fun

                                    • 15. Re: Saving with transparent background
                                      Secttor Design Level 1

                                      I didn't know QT is supported in PS.. I've been using TIFF for high quality.

                                      Also.. I can't get rid of the black background..how did you get it?  My files are exported as tiff from AE and the logo will be used for the website and some app as I've understood.

                                      Preview.jpg

                                      • 16. Re: Saving with transparent background
                                        Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                                        Just drag the Qt to photoshop. You will get a Video Timeline. And thats it

                                        save for web.

                                        • 17. Re: Saving with transparent background
                                          Secttor Design Level 1

                                          thanks a lot! did the trick . Nice community up here!

                                          • 18. Re: Saving with transparent background
                                            Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                                            Great glad you did it.