24 Replies Latest reply on Aug 16, 2016 11:23 PM by Laubender

    Glyphs Change Without Notice

    J Aaron Wendt

      Greetings, all. Old user here. Waited until PageMaker 2 came out in 1987 before I bought it and have been using InDesign since it appeared.

      I just finished printing a very expensive wedding invitation on 220# Lettra that involved copper foil stamping, blind debossing and duplexing to a copper metallic paper back. The customer just called and asked why the glyphs changed on some of the characters. I needed to change her type color from a copper to solid black for my diemaker, so I copied the story and pasted it into a new document. Then I changed the fill and stroke colors as needed. What I didn't notice is that some of the glyphs changed when I pasted the untouched story. InDesign 2015 and updated regularly. Font was her furnished Belluccia Pro. WTH?

        • 1. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
          Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Operating system? How about a screen capture so we have a better idea of what you're talking about.

           

          Were you using paragraph styles? Character styles?

          • 2. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
            J Aaron Wendt Level 1

            Thanks for jumping on this, Steve.  I'm using El Capitan, OS X 10.11.6. Most of my customers don't use Paragraph or Character Styles, and she did not either. Check out the "Leigh" in the bride's name, before and after.

            Before & After glyphs.jpg

            • 3. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
              Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Did you use an Alternate Glyph? I'm not familiar with that font. Check in the Glyphs panel.

              • 4. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                Abambo Level 4

                It's not a bug, it's a feature: Alternate Glyth! Depending on the position of the character in the word, InDesign chooses between different alternatives that are included in the font. You can also choose manually the glyth that fits your needs best. Select a character and keep the mouse pointer on it. InDesign shows alternate glyth you can use.

                • 5. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                  J Aaron Wendt Level 1

                  I don't understand your query. My customer sent the file with the type as a copper color. I copied the text story, opened a new document, pasted the text story, and at least two of the characters changed. I'm sure her file used glyphs that were inserted using the glyphs panel. I didn't know there was another way to do it without getting into code level stuff. Check out the lower case "g". In her original file (top) there are three different versions: One in "marriage", one in "daughter" and one in the last name "Appling." When I pasted the story into the new document, changes were made, which I didn't want and certainly didn't catch.

                  • 6. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                    Abambo Level 4

                    Some examples:

                    • 7. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                      J Aaron Wendt Level 1

                      Of course they are alternate glyphs. The issue is the text story did not retain the chosen alternates when it was pasted into a new document. There was no new keystroking done. It was a simple grab this text frame, copy it, create new document, paste text frame.

                      • 8. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                        Abambo Level 4

                        She used Word? Word is not able to use that. InDesign may access this:

                        • 9. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                          J Aaron Wendt Level 1

                          No. She used InDesign, packaged and zipped. I'm not sure what platform or operation system, or even vernsion for that matter. I can inquire, but when the file came to me and I opened it, it was fine... thus the screen grab on the top part of the image I inserted.

                          • 10. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                            Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Hi Aaron,

                            one explanation would be that the formatting is based on the "[Basic Paragraph Style]" and that this paragraph style is defined differently in your document compared to the customer's one. If you copy over text the formatting of the recieving document will win.

                             

                            The other one is, that the "[No Paragraph Style]" paragraph style is defined differently in both documents.

                             

                            Regards,
                            Uwe

                            • 11. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              The problem is most likely a difference in the settings for the use of contextual alternates in the two files.

                              • 12. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                Abambo Level 4

                                J Aaron Wendt wrote:

                                 

                                Greetings, all. Old user here. Waited until PageMaker 2 came out in 1987 before I bought it and have been using InDesign since it appeared.

                                I just finished printing a very expensive wedding invitation on 220# Lettra that involved copper foil stamping, blind debossing and duplexing to a copper metallic paper back. The customer just called and asked why the glyphs changed on some of the characters. I needed to change her type color from a copper to solid black for my diemaker, so I copied the story and pasted it into a new document. Then I changed the fill and stroke colors as needed. What I didn't notice is that some of the glyphs changed when I pasted the untouched story. InDesign 2015 and updated regularly. Font was her furnished Belluccia Pro. WTH?

                                The answers are here in your text:

                                 

                                She does not use styles!

                                 

                                You created a new document and copy/pasted using your defaults. She used her defaults.

                                 

                                Look the original document style (probably basic) and look into the Open Type settings. Then look into your new document a spot the differences.

                                • 13. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                  J Aaron Wendt Level 1

                                  That makes sense, but it's still not pretty, except being pretty expensive. As an experiment, I selected the entire contents of her text frame, created a new paragraph stye called "glyphs" (where there was only the [Basic Paragraph Style} before), then assigned the style to the text. Of course I got the plus sign, because there are different sizes and leading. Then I copied the frame into the new document. The new style appeared, but the glyphs still changed.

                                   

                                  I would guess creating outlines would solve the problem, but I've had to reprint jobs before when I did that when a text frame with a white background changed to no background after the conversion. I'm not rich enough to reprint a lot of jobs when trying to help out clients.

                                  • 14. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                    Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    I just did a test with Bickham Script Pro which also has a lot of alternate glyphs:

                                     

                                     

                                    InDesign CC087.png

                                     

                                    I'm using the same set up as you (Mac OS X 10.11.6 and InDesign CC 2015.4). I copied a text frame from one file to another and had no problems copying the alternate glyphs. It could be a bug related to the fact that your customer was using an old version of InDesign.

                                    • 15. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                      Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Feierwoon wrote:

                                      … The answers are here in your text:

                                      She does not use styles! …

                                      That could also happen even if she uses styles.

                                       

                                      Regards,
                                      Uwe

                                      • 16. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                        J Aaron Wendt Level 1

                                        Bingo. We have a winner! Feierwoon nailed it. Her basic paragraph settings had "Contextural Alternates" checked in the OpenType Features of the Paragraph Syles dialog box. My new document did not. What a pain, but great to figure it out. Thanks, everyone.

                                        • 17. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                          Jeff Witchel, ACI Adobe Community Professional

                                          Copying and Pasting is, in this case, is not holding on to your customer's alternate glyphs. So, Instead of Copying and Pasting the text, try the following:

                                           

                                          1. Go into Preferences (Command+K) and in the Type section, make sure "Enable in Layout View" is checked for Drag and Drop Text and click OK.
                                          2. Go into 2-up view in the Arrange Documents popup menu, so you can see both your customer's layout and yours at one time. (See attached below)
                                          3. Select all of the Text in your customer's layout, click on the selected text, then hold down your Option key and drag to an insertion point in your document.

                                          With this method the text is not being copied and pasted, it is being duplicated. This should hold onto all of the Alternate Glyphs.

                                           

                                          Hope it works!

                                          Screen Shot 2016-08-04 at 12.31.25 PM.png

                                          • 18. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                            J Aaron Wendt Level 1

                                            I thought I was a pretty smart feller with my twenty-nine years at the new-fangled desktop publishing game. I do know never to stop learning and think you know it all. Thanks again, all.

                                            • 19. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                              Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Jeff Witchel, ACI wrote:

                                              … With this method the text is not being copied and pasted, it is being duplicated. This should hold onto all of the Alternate Glyphs.

                                               

                                              Hope it works!

                                              Just tested that.
                                              Unfortunately duplicating will not help.

                                               

                                              Uwe

                                              • 20. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                                Jeff Witchel, ACI Adobe Community Professional

                                                Good to know. Thanks Uwe!

                                                • 21. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                                  Abambo Level 4

                                                  Yes, your right. If her style depends on [Basic Paragraph] or some other existing paragraph style or if the style itself exists in the document where the text is pasted. It's a question of relationship and as on Facebook, it's complicated!

                                                  • 22. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                                    Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    The obvious answer to this is using the original document, doing a Save As and saving with a new name and work on from that.

                                                     

                                                    Uwe

                                                    • 23. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                                      Abambo Level 4

                                                      The obvious answer is, that InDesign should give a warning. Sometimes it's necessary to do copy/paste.

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                                                      • 24. Re: Glyphs Change Without Notice
                                                        Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Feierwoon wrote:

                                                         

                                                        The obvious answer is, that InDesign should give a warning. Sometimes it's necessary to do copy/paste.

                                                        I agree with the "should" in your answer.

                                                        But that's wishful thinking for now. Unfortunately.

                                                         

                                                        I would do a feature request on this.

                                                        Also provide a link to this thread or a link to documents showing the case.

                                                         

                                                        Feature Request/Bug Report Form

                                                         

                                                        Regards,
                                                        Uwe