20 Replies Latest reply on Sep 4, 2016 5:13 AM by AlanKL

    4K settings in camera and Premiere

    AlanKL Level 1

      I just bought a Sony DSC RX100M4 photo camera with 4K and AVCHD 1080 video.  I'm trying to assess which settings in camera and in Premiere Initial and Publish settings I should use.

       

      Here are the various settings available  in the camera.

      [XAVC S 4K] 3840 × 2160

      Records high-definition movies by converting them to MP4 file format using the MPEG-4

      AVC/H.264 codec.

      Selections available:

      30p 100M/25p 100M:

      30p 60M/25p 60M:

      24p 100M*:

      24p 60M*:

       

      [XAVC S HD] 1920 × 1080

      Records high-definition movies by converting them to MP4 file format using the MPEG-4

      Selections available:

      AVC/H.264 codec.

      60p 50M/50p 50M:

      30p 50M/25p 50M:

      24p 50M*:

      120p 100M/100p 100M:

      120p 60M/100p 60M:

       

      [AVCHD] 1920 × 1080

      Selections available:

      60i/50i:

      24p/25p

      60p/50p

       

      There's also MP4 but I won't be using that.

       

      I'll be shooting short clips in 4k and displaying them on a 4K UHDTV using a memory card.  Just streaming; no menus. 

      I'll be shooting XAVC S 4K getting the MP4 file in H264 using either 30p/100mbps or 30p 60mbps.

      However, I will also have some slow motion 1080 using 120p 100mbps or 60mbps.  I will reduce the speed to slo-mo by changing the Time Stretch to 25%.

       

      I'll be including stills in the timeline as well.  So here are the questions.

       

       

      1.  What should the Initial Preset be set at in Premiere 12?

      2. Would I have more flexibility if I upgraded to Version 14?  What would thst do for me?

      3. What publish setting should I use to stream 4K to the computer so I can copy into a memorycard  to play on the U4K UHDTV?

      4. Can I use the same Timeline to create a Menu and burn a disk in 1080p?  What Publish settings to use?

      5.  What size should I down rez the still pictures too before importing into Premiere?

       

       

      Thanks.

        • 1. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
          whsprague Level 4

          AlanKL wrote:

           

          1. What should the Initial Preset be set at in Premiere 12?

          2. Would I have more flexibility if I upgraded to Version 14? What would thst do for me?

          3. What publish setting should I use to stream 4K to the computer so I can copy into a memorycard to play on the U4K UHDTV?

          4. Can I use the same Timeline to create a Menu and burn a disk in 1080p? What Publish settings to use?

          5. What size should I down rez the still pictures too before importing into Premiere?

           

           

          Thanks.

          Good camera.  Spectacular for 4K. 

           

          1.  I'm pretty sure there was no 4K ability in version 12.  I use version 13 and it is there, but Adobe didn't brag about it until 14.  15 will be out in September or October.  The normal way is to open the project, NOT pick a preset, import the 4K files and slide one to the timeline.  That will automatically pick the preset.

          2.  It is not flexibility, but necessity.  Especially for output.

          3.  It is in the X-AVCS outputs in 13 abd 14.  Not there in 12.

          4.  Yes.  But for 1080p you need a Blu-Ray burner or read up on what a "AVCHD Disk" is. 

          5.  Why in the world would you want to down rez the gorgeous, high bit rate video from a RX100IV.  You might as well use a iPhone to shoot your video.  Version 13 and new will accept the full 4K files from your RX100.

           

          Bill

          • 2. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
            AlanKL Level 1

            Bill Thanks for the response.

            1. I tried importing the first 4K clip and that preset procedure works.  My concern regarding what would be the best Preset however was because I'm also including 120p 1080 for some slo-mo plus 2160 stills.  Does the 4k video setting take priority?

             

            2/3. My Version 12 has a Publish in Computer>XAVC-S> MP4-H264 3840x2160

                 29.97p 30mbps.

                 29.97p 200mbps, and both 23.97p and 24.97p at 30mbps.   

             

            I've tried publishing to my computer using  29.97p 30mbps and copying to a memory card and it plays OK on my TV.  Of course my original camera is shooting 30p with 60 or 100mbps.  What does version 14 have on the Publish that's additional for 4k?

             

            4. I can burn H264 1080p  AVCHD to regular DVD-R, +R and -RW's with menus.    If I want to give these shows to friends or relatives, I'd rather burn a DVD that they can play than give them a memory card that streams 4K.  I realize I'll lose 4K but the 1080 looks pretty good especially when you include menus. It's also more convenient.  Also, most people don't even have 4k UHDTV's yet.    I don't know if burning H264 1080p is better on a B-R disc.  Does anyone know?

             

            5. I was referring to still pictures.  I'm shooting 5472×3080 photos which is larger than the 3840x2160 4K UHDTV screen.  So should I just import the full 5472x3080 original photos or down rez first.  If the latter, what's the best size?

             

            thanks again.  Alan.

            • 3. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
              whsprague Level 4

              Version 12 is better than I thought.  I didn't have a 4K camera 3 years ago. 

               

              1.  I would use a project setting for the best clips.  Lower quality clips should still work.

               

              2/3.  I can't check, but 12 should have an "Advanced Button" that lets you change the frame rate.  Version 13 has a button for "Match Source".  Can't check but 14 probably does too. 

               

              4.  Burning a a Video DVD turns everything to ancient Standard Definition blurriness.  If you have to use disks, use Blu-Ray.  As I wrote, read up on "AVCHD Disks".  (If your video is less than about 20 minutes, an ordinary DVD disk can be used for HD disks that play on a Blu-Ray player.)   If you really want to make fuzzy videos with your new fantastic camera, you should set your camera to use the crappy settings and use the low grade stuff all they way through to low grade output.   If you have members of your audience that can't get something better than their 20 year old DVD player, make a version for YouTube for them. 

               

              5.  Still photos can be tricky.   One of the prominent contributors here insists they be resized to lower pixel counts.   I've never do that.   I don't "down rez" anything.  When I expect to use stills in videos, I set the camera to make the photos in a 16:9 ratio.  If I forgot to do that, I'll use Lightroom to compose and crop to 16:9, export the best quality I can and then put them in Premier Elements. 

               

              I'll make a suggestion from another direction.  Projects you build in version 12 will not be usable in a newer version.  You have a brand new camera.  Get software of the same "vintage" as your camera.   

               

              Bill

              • 4. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                AlanKL Level 1

                1. OK

                2/3. Version 12 has Frame rate selection also: 10,12, 12.5, 15,23.976, 24, 25,29.97,30, 50, 59.94 and 60.  However, the last three will not allow selection.  You get the following notice: "Invalid framesize, framerate for this Level.  Please lower the Frame Dimension, Frame Rate or increse the Profile and Level and try again"  But if you change the size from 4K to 1080, you can get a frame rate up to 60p.  Si Guess I should Publish with 29.97 when doing 4K.  Is that correct?

                4. I'm confused about using a B-R disk.  Since I'll be burning 1080 with menus for mr friends and relatives, won't I get the same quality whether I record on DVD or B-R? 

                 

                As an aside, for my use at home on a 4k UHDTV,  can't I copy the 4K stream from the computer onto the DVD or B-R disk or avoid using a memory card?  ANd if so, again, why would the B-R disk provide more quality?  Isn't the data the same on both disks?

                 

                5. Ok so I'll import the full pixels for still pictures.  Regarding and upgrade, I'll wait until Version 15 comes out before I'll consider buying.

                 

                Thanks again. Alan.

                 

                 

                • 5. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                  whsprague Level 4

                  2/3.  Consumer cameras, so far, are shooting 4K at 30 fps.  That's all you are likely to get for output since that is what your source is.

                   

                  4.  DVD = SD or Standard Definition like old tube TVs.  The highest resolution that the DVD format can support is 720 x 480 pixels per frame for NTSC.  B-R = HD or High Definition, 1920x1080 like flat screen TVs before 4K.  A Blu-Ray burner is needed to make a Blu-Ray disk that can play long videos on Blu-Ray players.  Included in the Blu-Ray specifications is a standard called "AVCHD Disk".  It allows you to burn to a DVD drive, on a cheap DVD disk in HD that can be played on a Blu-Ray player at 1920x1080.  However since DVD disks hold a smaller amount of data, the video needs to be less than about 20 minutes. 

                   

                  These "standards" all came when Blu-Ray was invented.  They were not invented by Adobe.  But, Adobe put the capability into Premier Elements to match the standards. 

                   

                  If you have a 4K TV, only a few 4K formatted movies are currently available on disc to play on one of the two or three 4K UHD Blu-Ray players you can buy.  There are no 4K consumer burners on the market.  You can put 4K videos (without menus) on USB drives, plug them into your TV directly and watch.  No disc player is needed.   Many, including me, think that discs will be made obsolete by 4K.  Instead we will "stream" Hollywood content from Netflix, Amazon, etc.  Home video will be kept on drives.  USB HDDs are cheap.  Yesterday I bought a 16GB thumb/flash drive at Walgreens for $5.  4K TVs have menu systems built in so you can keep a large collection of your home videos on a HDD plugged into your 4K TV and use the remote to manage playback.  

                   

                  "can't I copy the 4K stream from the computer onto the DVD or B-R disk or avoid using a memory card?  Nope, not unless you know something I don't.  The basic problem is that your DVD player has a very slow bit rate "flow", the B-R player is higher and the 4K video is even higher than that.  

                   

                  If you want to stick to disk distribution, do yourself a favor.  Set your camera to AVCHD 1080p60.   The RX100 is very good at HD video!  Premier Elements is very good at editing AVCHD content.  Your under 20 minute videos, with menus, can be burned on cheap DVD disks and played on (now) cheap Blu-Ray players.  Your 4K TV is likely to have some fancy "upscaling" to make them look very good. 

                  • 6. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                    Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    I would forget about burning HD to dvd. Most BD players wont play the disk and beside this was a workaround when BD were very expensive. Nowadays they are not. I dont understand Elements still giving that option.

                    • 7. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                      whsprague Level 4

                      Ann Bens wrote:

                       

                      I would forget about burning HD to dvd. Most BD players wont play the disk and beside this was a workaround when BD were very expensive. Nowadays they are not. I dont understand Elements still giving that option.

                      I've had very good luck with "AVCHD Disks".  I've never had one not work on a Blu-Ray player.  The reason that is is a good idea to have that option in Premier Elements is that you don't need a Blu-Ray burner.  The routine, at least in Premier Elements, allows you to create the equivalent of a short, less than 20 minute, 1920x1080 Blu-Ray standards video with a computer that only has a DVD burner/player.

                       

                      Bill

                      • 8. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                        AlanKL Level 1

                        Like Bill, my AVCHD 1080's on DVD disks with menus work on my B-R players. I've been doing that for years as I don't have a B-R burner. 

                         

                        However, I now have a UHD 4K HDR player (Samsung UBD-K8500)  that I bought when I got my 4K HDR Sony UHDTV.  So I can use it for 4K streaming disks.  (4K won't play back on my other B-R players as they only handle 1080).   I've tried Publishing to computer and transferring burning data to DVD's  using the Publish MP4 XAVC-S 29.97p and 30m and it plays O on my new 4K Samsung player. Of course, no menus. They're basically slide show with short video clips so I can keep it under 4mb limit of DVD's.  Would there be any benefit other than lengthof the show by getting a B-R burner and burning B-R disks?

                         

                        Getting back to optimum selection in the camera, any difference between 4K 30p 100Mbps and 30p 60Mbps?  Both can be importing into Premiere and worked on in the Timeline.

                        • 9. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                          AlanKL Level 1

                          Oh, I also tried shooting 120p 100M AVCHD 1080, and then reduced the Time Stretch to 25% and got wonderful 4 times slow motion.  No jumps; very smoothe.   I'm curious what's happening in Premiere.  When I look at the Timeline before applying the 25% Time Stretch., I count 30 frames in a second.   (Preset is at 30p, 4K)   Is it dropping 3 of the 4 frames?  Then when I reduce to 25%, I still have 30 frames in a second.  Of course the clip length is extended 4 fold so I assume all the 120 frames per second are used on the timeline..  What happening in each to the original 120 framers per second? What is Premier doing?  What happens if I stretched it to 10%?

                          • 10. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                            whsprague Level 4

                            Since you have a Samsung UBD-K8500, a 4K TV and a Sony camera that shoots 4K, you are in a new territory.  You should be telling us how that works!  How well does a three year old Premier Element work with that?  Could a new version work better since you are on the the leading edge of this 4K stuff?

                             

                            Bill

                            • 11. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                              AlanKL Level 1

                              OK I was up to 330am trying to do some testing to see what's what.  Just for you guys.  So I used 4 short clips totaling 1:51 minutes, a total of 966MB consisting of two clips 4K, XAVC S MP4 30p, 100mbps; one clip AVCHD 1920x1080 120p 100mbps (that was Time extended 4x 25% to get slow motion on the output); and the last clip at 4K, XAVC S MP4 30p 60mbps.  Project setting was for Red Camera 3840x2160 30fps. 

                               

                              I Published two ways from the same Timeline and saved in computer files that were burned to separate DVD-RWs.

                              Publish settings (same Timeline for both):

                              Sample 1. Computer>XAVS>3840x2160 29.97p, H264.  Transferred to DVD, 401MB 3840x2160, 29.914mbps, 29p

                              Sample 2. Disk>AVCHD>H264 1920x1080p NTSC Dolby Transferred to DVD 218MB  1920x1080  16.187mbps, 23p??? Why 23P?

                               

                              Played disks using the Samsung UBD-K8500 4K BluRay player that up-rezes the 1080 DVD  to 2160 and passed through the 4K version.  Played on a Sony 75X940D 75" HDR 4K UHDTV that uprezes on its own if you let's say play a 1080 or smaller size file from memory card or from other sources.

                               

                              The results were that unless you really pixel peep, 95% of the people would not notice a difference between the 1080 uprezed to 4K by the BluRay player compared to the 4K Published DVD.   The slow motion was great, no jumping, very smooth in both versions.  So my next step is to compare the same video by playing using memory cards to see what the Sony TV does with the uprezing.  I'll report back.

                               

                              I'd compare my old DVD's but those were videod with a 720 camera so I don't really want to waste time and complicate things.

                               

                              Could you answer some questions though?

                               

                              1. Why was the 1080 218MB about half the 401MB 4K file?   I didn't create Memus. Shouldn't the factor be 1/4 of the 4K file?

                              2. Why did the Published 1080 report 23p for the file?

                              3. How does Premiere handle 120p.  Does it keep 1 of the 4 frames and drop the other 3? When I extended by 25%, did it then keep all 120p's.  Same question when you shoot 60p?  Is this why you shouldn't mix 24p with 30p and 60p and 120p when you publish 30p?

                              • 12. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                AlanKL Level 1

                                OK so I transferred the same two files to a memory card (95mb read rate San Disk Extreme Pro) and played it both in the 4K B-R and in the USB of the Sony 4K UHDTV.  I couldn't tell the difference between the uprezing of the 1080 video between the the player and TV in either the memory card or DVD play versions.  I have to admit that it does look slightly better in the Published 4k versions over the 1080 though.  My last post said I didn't really see a difference, but it is there, but very slight.  Unless you had two TV's on the wall comparing both at the same time, it's really hard to notice any difference.  The thing to realize is that I was sitting 14 feet from the TV.  Even when I got up close to pixel peep, it was hard to see the difference. 

                                 

                                So the next test would be to shoot 1080 60p/50m in XAVC HD or AVCHD 60p and 4K and see what the differences are when Published.  That will take a while as I have other things to do.  In the meanwhile, can anyone answer my questions from the last post?

                                • 13. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                  AlanKL Level 1

                                  The only 1080 60p/50mbps is in the XAVC S HD.  So what should my preset and publish output settings be?

                                  • 14. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                    AlanKL Level 1

                                    OK so I shot 60p 1080 and compared to shooting 4K and Publishing 4k 30p vs 1080 30p AVCHD.  Same files were published and burned on a DVD and played on my 4K B-R player on a 4K 75" UHDTV.

                                     

                                    Recorded 4k 30p looks clearer with more apparant resolution than recorded 1080 60p when published at 4k. That intuitive.  What's interesting is that 4k recorded is clearer than 1080 recorded when both files are Published to 1080 AVCHD 30p even though everything is at 1080. Similarly, 4k down rezed Published to 1080 is also clearer on my 1080 monitor than the 1080 recorded video. 

                                     

                                    What was interesting also is that the final file size was 283MB for the 1080 published video vs.  265MB for the 4K published file.  Why would the 1080 file be bigger?

                                     

                                    One thing I noticed was that 60p 1080 was less jumpy in original recorded file.  How do you set Preset and Publish for 1080/60p recordings?

                                    • 15. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                      whsprague Level 4

                                      Alan,

                                       

                                      I'm not ignoring your requests.  I've given up!  Why?  You have gear I don't and I can't verify what you are doing.  I have the earlier version of your camera but can't verify settings or stabilization capability in 4K modes.  I don't have a 4K Blu-Ray player.  Playing DVDs on my 3 normal Blu-Ray players makes everything go to Standard Definition mush.  I don't have 4K TV either. 

                                       

                                      With the gear you have, you are on the leading edge of consumer video.  It should be fun!

                                       

                                      My last suggestion to you is to try the Premier Elements course on Lynda.com.  It will give you a foundation of what Premier Elements can do, how it's done and run through the output choices. 

                                      • 16. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                        AlanKL Level 1

                                        I don't mind passing along what I've found with the 4K equipment I'm using.  It may help others who are starting to get this equipment as well. 

                                         

                                        The question I have is fundamental though to Premiere operation although it isn't a normal selection on the Presets or Publish settings.  When you're using 60P 1080, what do you adjust in the Advance sections when in Computer publish?  Set at 60p, 59.97P or what?  If you can answer that question, it would be helpful.  I have created many disks but not with 60p.  I don;t want to sit through hours of Lydia looking for an answer to that question assuming it's even there.  Could you answer?

                                        • 17. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                          whsprague Level 4

                                          AlanKL wrote:

                                          I don;t want to sit through hours of Lydia looking for an answer to that question assuming it's even there. Could you answer?

                                          No point in trying to learn how it works!  Better to fast forward to a narrow answer.  What I do with version 13 is press the Advanced button and then follow with the "Match Source" button. Seems pretty simple.

                                          • 18. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                            AlanKL Level 1

                                            I'm not trying to shortcut anything.  I cannot see how to input 60p 1080 as you suggested earlier and Publish 1080 60p with menus to a Disk.  Disk outputs are only to 30p and there are no Advanced settings.  So how do you output 60p 1080 with menus to a disk?  Thanks.

                                            • 19. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                              whsprague Level 4

                                              AlanKL wrote:

                                              ....So how do you output 60p 1080 with menus to a disk? Thanks.

                                              If I want to do that, I use a Blu-Ray burner.  But, I don't know how to help you do what you want.

                                              • 20. Re: 4K settings in camera and Premiere
                                                AlanKL Level 1

                                                OK Thanks.  I think I'll hold off getting a B-R burner.  As people here suggested, I might be better off burning to a memory card connected directly to my UHDTV.