21 Replies Latest reply on Dec 14, 2016 2:54 PM by trshaner

    Projecting images and color space question

    Bob Gates Level 2

      We are having a heated discussion in our camera club. We use a projector to project the images for competition. For years we used Faststone image viewer to project the images. We have the usual problems of people not calibrating their monitors, and sometimes, colors not matching, but it has worked pretty well.  Now that the people handling the projection are proficient in LR, they are using LR, on a Windows laptop, to organize and display the images via the projector. The projector is a VGA sRGB projector.  Some are arguing that LR will cause problems because it uses the Adobe RGB color space as the display color space. (We know that the native color space is ProPhoto.) Others think that it will output images in sRGB color space to the projector just as you can when you export an image. I can't find anything in the Adobe help pages about this issue.

       

      Here is one contribution to the debate to give you some idea of what some people are talking about:

       

      It is my understanding that LR will send the images bits (in the Adobe RGB colorspace) to the Windows API and in turn the bits are rendered on the LCD screen and VGA output via the associated LCD/VGA color profiles. It is my understanding the FastStone viewer is sending the image bits as is without any alterations to the color space. LR sends the bits altered to the Adobe RGB color space. Assuming both programs are calling the same Windows API the images should render the same, but they don't. My conclusion is the former is in sRGB and latter in Adobe RGB. I assume they are calling the same APIs because you can open a jpeg in Windows Picture Viewer (applet in Win7) and see a different rendering from FastStone, it doesn't use the Color Managed APIs.

       

      Anyone who can shed some light on this vexed topic?

        • 1. Re: Projecting images and color space question
          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          LR requires a "compatible" (ICC version 2, matrix type) monitor profile be assigned to the display for proper rendering. Many manufacturer supplied monitor profiles are not compatible with LR. If the projector is sRGB gamut try assigning the system sRGB color profile to the projector.

           

          How do I change my monitor profile to check whether it’s corrupted? - The Lightroom Queen

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Projecting images and color space question
            Bob Gates Level 2

            Thanks for the response.  We profile the monitor with the Spyder 5 Elite calibrator. Should that solve any issues? As you can tell from my question, I know what the different color spaces are, I just don't know what LR "sends" to the projector. And yes, the projector is sRGB.

            • 3. Re: Projecting images and color space question
              wobertc Adobe Community Professional

              To add to Bob's question- If Lightroom is creating previews from the 'original' image files, are we in fact looking at the 'original' or at a 'preview interpretation' of the photo?

              The club I am in has considered the same question and currently uses Adobe Bridge to project.

              • 4. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Bob Gates wrote:

                 

                Thanks for the response. We profile the monitor with the Spyder 5 Elite calibrator.

                As long as the Spyder software is set to create ICC version 2 (and not version 4) matrix monitor profiles it should work properly with LR. There is a possible of issue even with a proper profile due to GPU support in LR 6/CC 2015. To rule that out uncheck 'Use Graphics Processor in LR's Preferences as shown below:

                Bob Gates wrote:

                 

                I know what the different color spaces are, I just don't know what LR "sends" to the projector. And yes, the projector is sRGB.

                LR takes the image preview data from it's working color space (ProPhoto RGB, Gamma 1.0) and converts it using the monitor's color profile. The preview data sent to the display (or projector) is in that color space. Since you say the projector is sRGB it is considered standard gamut, but the actual gamut may be slightly more or less than sRGB. You can upload the Spyder monitor profile and compare it to sRGB here: ICCView - 3D

                • 5. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  wobertc wrote:

                   

                  To add to Bob's question- If Lightroom is creating previews from the 'original' image files, are we in fact looking at the 'original' or at a 'preview interpretation' of the photo?

                   

                  If you are reviewing a JPEG, TIFF, or any other non-raw file format AND Develop settings have not been applied (or saved to metadata from a previous edit) to that image file the LR preview shows the unaltered original file data.

                   

                  If you are reviewing a camera raw format file (w/o out an XMP sidecar file) it will have LR's default settings applied to it and that is what you will see in the LR preview.

                   

                  If you are reviewing a DNG format file AND it has not been edited in LR or ACR at any time it will have LR's default settings applied to it and that is what you will see in the LR preview.

                   

                  What file formats do you normally use for reviewing?

                  • 6. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                    Abambo Adobe Community Professional

                    Technically you have a source and a target profile and some software, that takes care of coverting the first to the second. This means that any profile is involved, as long as the profiles are correct and the target is calibrated, the target will show a picture that is as near to the the source as technically is possible.

                     

                    Problems arise, when the target is not or not correctly calibrated or the wrong profiles are used.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                      wobertc Adobe Community Professional

                      Thanks trshaner,

                      "LR preview shows the unaltered original file data."  gives me confidence that LR is suitable for club projection.

                      All club competition images are requested to be JPG so "original file data" holds true.

                      The only downside I see is that images have to be imported to LR, whereas Bridge works as a browser for images that can remain on USB sticks.

                       

                      Then it is back to Bob's question regarding projector calibration and profiles, etc- gets complicated!

                      And then we have 'beginner' photographers that produce JPGs without embedded color profiles.

                      Oh for the days of slide projectors.

                      Back to you Bob and Trshaner..

                      • 8. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                        Abambo Adobe Community Professional

                        wobertc wrote:

                         

                        Thanks trshaner,

                        "LR preview shows the unaltered original file data." gives me confidence that LR is suitable for club projection.

                        LR is quite overkill for this. If your projector does not better then sRGB, ask for sRGB pictures and use any picture reader you want. The free Windows or OSX readers should be good enough.

                        • 9. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                          Abambo Adobe Community Professional

                          wobertc wrote:

                           

                          Oh for the days of slide projectors.

                           

                          Never used different films? Fuji, Agfa Kodak... ? Daylight/artificial light?

                          • 10. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                            wobertc Adobe Community Professional

                            Never used different films? Fuji, Agfa Kodak... ?

                            Ahhh yes- but that's the photographers problem- NOT the projectionist.

                            • 11. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              wobertc wrote:

                               

                              The only downside I see is that images have to be imported to LR, whereas Bridge works as a browser for images that can remain on USB sticks.

                              I suggest importing the USB image files into Destination> a top-level folder 'NAME' and then 'Into Subfolder' with the photographers name.You can also add the photographers name and other pertinent information as 'Keywords' under 'Apply During Import.'

                              wobertc wrote:

                               

                              And then we have 'beginner' photographers that produce JPGs without embedded color profiles.

                              LR assumes untagged files are sRGB. If the JPEG was created with an sRGB color profile there is no issue.

                              • 12. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                wobertc Adobe Community Professional

                                Good advice fellows.

                                I hope Bob has his answer from the discussion.

                                • 13. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                  Abambo Adobe Community Professional

                                  wobertc wrote:

                                   

                                  Ahhh yes- but that's the photographers problem- NOT the projectionist.

                                  ...as are JPEGs without or the wrong profile... :-)

                                   

                                  I assume that the projectionist is able to calibrate his equipment!

                                  • 14. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    You actually really want to use an app like Lightroom or Bridge to view images on your projector and not the unmanaged faststone viewer or some such. Lightroom correctly translates the image to the destination profile for the projector regardless of the original colorspace of the images. It's best to calibrate and profile the projector in addition to your monitor. Some of the more higher end calibration pucks support projectors too. It is rare that these projectors are really sRGB. They are usually a bit narrower. Some of the newer ones are wider gamut when they use LEDs or lasers instead of light bulbs.

                                    • 15. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                      Bob Gates Level 2

                                      I was at a football game and haven't had a chance to respond, but I appreciate everyone's input.

                                       

                                      To answer this "LR is quite overkill for this. If your projector does not better then sRGB, ask for sRGB pictures and use any picture reader you want. The free Windows or OSX readers should be good enough."  The reason for using LR is that we have three classes of images with many entrants, and want to show the images for judging and LR, with the use of collections and flags, etc. does this best.

                                       

                                      As for my original question, I think I have enough information from this thread to settle the issue for us: That using LR and profiling the projector will give us accurate images for everyone who also calibrates their monitor. We lend the Spyder to members and encourage them to do this.

                                       

                                       

                                      • 16. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                        rflexible Level 1

                                        I don't see an answer to this related question.  Can you use a projector profile when using soft proofing in photoshop cc  (view/proof set up/ custom/ device to simulate)?

                                         

                                        If you use a printer + paper profile (e.g. created by Xrite Color Munki orI1 photo) to simulate how an image will look when printed, then using a projector + screen profile should simulate how the image will look projected.

                                         

                                        But, since you are looking at the predicted image on a computer display that has been color calibrated, how  can it simulate how the projected image will look like?   Windows color management only allows one profile for a default- either the display or projector.

                                        • 17. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                          Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          Soft proofing for the projector profile would work similar to how soft

                                          proofing for a printer profile works. Lightroom will show on your screen a

                                          simulation of the image when it would be projected using the projector. It

                                          converts your image from the native Lightroom space (linear gamma

                                          prophotoRGB) to the projector's profile and then converts that again to

                                          your display profile to show it to you. This assumes that the profile is an

                                          real measurement of the actual projector for it to show it correctly, not

                                          some canned profile that comes in a driver. The latter are always fairly

                                          useless. It can't perfectly do the simulation as the display technology is

                                          very different but it should give a reasonable impression. You DO NOT want

                                          to change your display profile. It should always be the calibrated profile

                                          for the display you are using. Lightroom itself takes care of soft proofing.

                                          • 18. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                            rflexible Level 1

                                            "

                                            You DO NOT want

                                            to change your display profile. It should always be the calibrated profile

                                            for the display you are using."

                                             

                                            Win 10 color management allows only one default profile. If you use the one for the projector, then you cannot use the one for the calibrated display.

                                            • 19. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                              Conrad C Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              There's no conflict. If you're trying to soft-proof a projector, that means you're not at the projector and you're connected to your calibrated display. Therefore the Windows display profile should be set to the calibrated display and that's all Windows needs to be aware of.

                                               

                                              The soft-proofing happens inside Photoshop or Lightroom, so it's Photoshop or Lightroom that runs the image through the profile of the output you're soft-proofing (e.g., the projector), and then hands off that simulation to Windows to show you through the calibrated display profile.

                                               

                                              Keeping in mind, of course, that the projector profile is only valid for soft-proofing as long as the actual presentation will use the same type of projection screen, and under the same lighting conditions, that were used to create the projector profile.

                                              • 20. Re: Projecting images and color space question
                                                rflexible Level 1

                                                Thank you. I have tried extend and duplicate  but cannot see in color management control panel how to use a profile as a default in my display and projector.

                                                 

                                                In the Microsoft color control panel

                                                Win 10 version 1607

                                                 

                                                How do I specify a color profile (from the Xrite I1 colorimeter) for the generic Dell Inspiron lap top display, and  a different profile for a projector?

                                                In the Windows 10 color control panel, under devices I only see the generic display.

                                                With the projector turned on, and in both extend and duplicate mode, I do not see the projector under devices.

                                                 

                                                I can specify a default ICC profile (.icm) for the display, but how do is specify a different one for the projector?