12 Replies Latest reply on Sep 28, 2016 5:03 PM by Bill Gehrke

    Where is my bottleneck?

    gavins72781896

      I was able to get Apple to allow me to return a Late 2013 MacPro after struggling with performance issues in Premiere Pro CC. I built a new Windows 10 machine with the cash I got back and was excited to build a PC without holding back any punches. 

       

      Here is the machine I built:

       

      CPU: Intel Boxed Core i7-6900K Processor (20M Cache, up to 3.70 GHz) FC-LGA14A 3.2 8 BX80671I76900K

      Motherboard: ASUS LGA2011-v3 5-Way Optimization SafeSlot X99 ATX Motherboard X99-DELUXE II

      GPU: EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Founders Edition 8GB GDDR5X PCI Express 3.0 Graphics Card (08G-P4-6180-KR)

      SSD (Operating system, program files): Samsung 850 PRO 512GB 2.5-Inch SATA III Internal SSD (MZ-7KE512BW)

      RAM: Kingston Technology HyperX FURY Black 32 GB Kit CL15 DIMM DDR4 2400 MT/s Internal Memory

      HDD: Seagate 3TB 64MB Cache 7200RPM SATA III 6.0Gb/s (Heavy-Duty) 3.5-inch Internal Hard Drive

      PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA 1000 G2 80+ GOLD, 1000W Fully Modular NVIDIA SLI and Crossfire Ready Power Supply

      Cooler: Corsair Hydro Series H115i Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler , Black

       

      I figured this would be overkill for editing 4K. I suppose I underestimated the performance required to edit 4K video without proxies or a hard drive RAID... My videographer hates dropping frames, and we currently drop anywhere between 17-80 frames watching one 1-minute 4k stream. We shoot all of our footage with an FS7 using the internal XAVC-I codec. I know this little bit of information doesnt tell the entire story... But i am hoping our problem is obvious enough that we don't need to go into further detail...

       

      Would running the project files off of our 3tb HDD @ 7200rpm be a better option than running the project files off of our SSD that is also used for the windows 10 OS as well as the Premiere pro CC program files?

       

      Would installing Premiere Pro CC on the HDD and running the OS+Project files off of the SSD be a better option?

       

      Should I just suck it up and admit that i should've built a RAID array for this pc?

       

      Thank you in advance!

        • 1. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
          RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

          it would be better to have add another sata ssd, then use one for os/apps/cache and the other for projects/media. if the bitrate of the media is very high and/or you are trying to playback multiple layers at once, there is a chance the 850 pro might not be keeping up. you can check in windows task manager to see the drive usage while playing back footage in premiere. if you think the 850 pro is too slow for the media and are looking at raid, you may want to consider one of the new samsung 960 m.2 drives instead of raid. if the drive usage is somewhat high even when premiere is closed and the computer should be idle, you can look online for windows optimize guides to disable all the unnecessary windows and third party background programs and services, including the built-in microsoft spyware and tacking functions. windows update will re-enable them too, so its something you may have to do frequently.

           

          if the cpu and drive usage is medium to low while playing back footage in premiere, it might be a software problem with premiere and the xavc-i codec. there have been lots of problems in the past with different xavc versions, and i'm not sure if there are any current xavc problems. you can search thru the regular premiere forums to see if there are problems similar to yours and possible solutions, like this one XAVC UltraHD files playback problem  also, sometimes turning off the "enable hardware h264 decoding" setting can help with performance.

           

          if you find the poor playback only occurs with xavc-i and nothing fixes it, you could look into recording to another format like prores or dnxhr, or transcoding the media to dnxhr or cineform.

          • 2. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
            JFPhoton Level 3

            In general, the speed of the drive which contains your video footage and project files is VERY important to performance....the faster the better. All your components appear to be beefy enough to handle the 4K editing and playback EXCEPT the stone aged, spinning, mechanical hard drive which DOES cause a bottleneck in many cases.

             

            First, Make that spinning drive become a backup,or, archive drive...not to be used in active editing.

            Next, install  the newly announced Samsung 960 Pro M.2 NVMe PCI SSD in your machine to handle EVERYTHING other than what is on your boot drive SSD. The 960 Pro will be available in capacities ranging up to 2 TB.

            Thirdly, although your CPU is advertized to "turbo" up to 3.7 Ghz under load on all 16  "threads", you may achieve a significant performance gain by safely overclocking your CPU up over 4 Ghz......many are achieving 4.5 Ghz for a solid performance gain. Your CPU is DESIGNED for this overclocking, with the "K" designation.

             

            It is important to realize that once the OS and programs are loaded into memory, the speed of the boot drive becomes not that important. Only the OS, programs, and Windows page file should be on that boot drive. There IS an exception. Bill Gehrke has found that placing the " media cache" and " cache" files onto the boot SSD has NO effect on PPro performance. ALL other files must go onto the NVMe PCI SSD to achieve BEST performance, ( i.e. video footage, project files, previews, and exports ). You can experiment with the placement of the " media cache" and "cache" files on either the boot drive,or, NVMe drive to see if there is any difference.

             

            Just remember, a SATA III 7200 rpm spinning hard drive may give only just over 100 MB/sec when new and unfilled on its outer tracks...decreasing to around 50MB/sec on the inner tracks once the drive is near filled. Then, if that drive is "fragmented", performance will suffer even further. The spinning HDD is NOT " bi-directional" like the NVMe SSD...it is " half duplex", meaning it can only read OR write...it cannot do BOTH at the same time like the NVMe drive CAN. This increases "latency" for the spinning drive which reduces performance even MORE.

                  In contrast, the new Samsung 960 Pro delivers a read speed of 3.5 GB / second and a write speed of 2.1 GB/second.....that is a read speed increase which is THIRTY FIVE TIMES FASTER than your spinning hard drive !!!!! Others have found the slow, spinning HDD to be their "bottleneck" culprit, and have had massive improvement using the new NVMe drives, or, even a RAID 0 array of SSDs instead. Of course, avoiding RAID and its pitfalls would be preferable.

             

            Finally, Ronin's link to the problems users have had with your particular codec is real and hopefully, by now, the "bug" has been fixed inside PPro...or, a workable solution found. "Transcoding" is a pain.

             

            You STILL need to improve your hardware as described above anyway to get the best possible performance.....your machine should be very capable of handling easily what you are throwing at it

            • 3. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
              gavins72781896 Level 1

              Hey JFPhoton,

               

              Really appreciate the information. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond so thoroughly!

               

              I have one clarifying question... And I only ask this because this is a business machine and the budget for the build has all but (mostly) dried up.

               

              Do you think that installing the OS+Programs on one of the slower, 7200rpm HDD and using the current 512 Samsung 850 pro SSD as a project drive would be a suitable compromise? We are not too worried about boot times.

               

              Thanks again!

              • 4. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                gavins72781896 Level 1

                RoninEdits,

                 

                Thank you very very very much for your response and the links you provided. It definitely sounds like the Samsung 960 is a worthy upgrade for us.

                 

                Also, the usage in task manager was much better than the "spreadsheet" view i got from my other 2 system monitors. Thanks for the tip!

                 

                Cheers!

                • 5. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                  Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  There is no confirmed availability yet for the Samsung 960, while I agree it is a wise choice when you can actually buy one.

                   

                  If you go to my Premiere Pro BenchMark (PPBM) website and download, install and run the four tests and post the resulting Output.csv file results back here I will try to give you some clues to your results.

                  • 6. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                    JFPhoton Level 3

                    ....you could try using the spinner as your boot drive and see what happens. Bill would have a good idea how that may work....I would guess it would be an improvement, though not ideal, with ONLY OS, Programs, and page file on it......also, turn "indexing" off on it in the hard drive properties window. You wouls not have much capacity with this solution.

                     

                    Best to perhaps get the Samsung 950 Pro at 500GB for $319 at New Egg for best solution, if you need something immediately.

                    • 7. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                      gavins72781896 Level 1

                      Hey Bill!

                       

                      Thanks for the benchmark test! I have uploaded the Output.CSV as well as the speccy output.

                       

                       

                      https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwymRcnHxz-VTmwzMEthT0o5ZFE

                      https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwymRcnHxz-VS3RHSUV2NWE5LXc

                       

                       

                      This test was performed with the OS, Program Files, and Project Files all on the same SSD

                       

                      Cheers!

                      • 8. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                        gavins72781896 Level 1

                        Hey Bill,

                         

                        I ran another BM with my 7200RPM HDD as the project file disk  and the SSD as the OS/Program files disk for reference:

                         

                        https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwymRcnHxz-VS3RHSUV2NWE5LXc

                         

                        Obviously, SSD is the way to go.

                         

                        I will DEFINITELY be purchasing another SSD in the near future..  Do you think that Running my OS from the HDD and runing the project files from the SSD will be a suitable compromise for now?

                         

                        Thanks for the information in advance!

                        • 9. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                          Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Gavins, here are your two scores

                          "244","92","38","294", Premiere Version:, 10.4.0.30  HDD

                          "94","96","37","307", Premiere Version:, 10.4.0.30   SSD

                          As you surmised your export, the first number, showed the advantage of the SSD the write transfer rate of 395 MB/s to 152 MB/s. 2.5 x better.

                           

                          Your last number (294 or 307 seconds) shows your CPU efficiency and, it is a very good number for your non-overlocked i7- 6700K 8-core CPU.  I run a overclocked i7-5960X which with only 6-cores and 4.5 GHz clock scores 265 seconds.

                           

                          With our MPEG2-DVD non-GPU accelerated timeline which is normally 100% CPU intensive score (see Task Manger below) of 294 seconds is divided by the MPEG2-DVD GPU score which in the HDD score above is 38 seconds we have 294/38 = 7.7 as the gain for the GPU.  Now this is not good for your GTX 1080, I have a score from an i7-3930K to 4.4Ghz those two numbers were 430/17 = 25.2!

                          Check to see that you are getting >90% GPU usage with GPU-Z like this

                          GTX-1060-GPU-z-Tab-1-and-2-nonOC.png

                          The second number is also a GPU accelerated score with also some of CPU assistance.

                           

                          Looking at your numbers and the variability between runs I am guessing that you may have lots of other processes running that may be interfering with Premiere operations. Have you tuned your system to eliminate unnecessary processes?  Look at my Task Manager screen grab and even with Windows 10 I have 70 processes running (I probably can do better).

                           

                          Here are my scores with my overclocked CPU and GPU "24","56","19","265", Premiere Version:, 10.4.0.30  Also the 24 seconds for the disk intensive score is because I have a Samsung 950 Pro 512 GB  M.2 SSD installed on my motherboard which show you why I suggest that device since you have the M.2 socket on your motherboard

                           

                          What driver version are you using on your GTX 1080?  "Latest" is not a valid answer.

                          • 10. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                            gavins72781896 Level 1

                            Hey Bill,

                             

                            Thank you very much for your thorough analysis. We definitely have not tuned our system to exclude any processes but we are running a bare install of Windows 10 with only the Adobe suite, Chrome, VLC, and iTunes installed... I will run msconfig and dial down my start up tasks today.


                            The current Driver we are running is Nvidias Geforce 372.90 which i believe is their latest version. Speccy is only showing 4095MB on our 1080 when it should show 8000mb... but this is a known issue. All other hardware monitors show the correct amount.

                             

                             

                            Do you think we have a faulty card?


                            Cheers,

                            • 11. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                              RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                              if you want to test your gtx 1080, you can look for some gpu benchmark programs and then try to find scores of other gtx 1080's to see how yours compares. UNIGINE heaven and valley are popular and should have plenty of scores on youtube to match settings and compare scores.

                               

                              you can also download gpu-z and watch the gpu usage and stats like core clock and temp. gpu load and core clock should stay constant during any gpu benchmark, but might jump around more with premiere. if temps are too high the gpu will automatically thermal throttle and hurt performance. you watch gpu-z while you try to playback the xavc-i footage in premiere as well, i expect the gpu would barely be used as the cpu should be handling the decoding. if there was something wrong with the gtx 1080 and it was causing the problem with premiere playing xavc-i, it should happen with all media as well.

                              • 12. Re: Where is my bottleneck?
                                Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                One thing to check is on the first tab of GPU-Z.   Look at the "Bus Interface" and while loaded check to see if it is running "PCIe 3.0 x16 @  x16 3.0" my screen grab on my GTX 1060 was not loaded at that time but under load it it does go to "....x16 3.0"