16 Replies Latest reply on Nov 16, 2016 4:02 PM by MikeCurtis_1138

    Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR

    MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

      I'm trying to nail down a color and compositing pipeline between After Effects and Premiere for HDR video (High Dynamic Range). I've figured out how to get OpenEXR sequences to color match between After Effects and Premiere Pro (drop an EXR sequence into Premiere, drop same into After Effects and render out as EXRs without doing anything to them, drop the After Effects output onto a Premiere Pro timeline, and the two sequences color match with no shifts).

       

      So I'm confident that my workflow color matches - that processing an EXR sequence through After Effects and putting it into Premiere isn't shifting color or gamma or anything like that.

       

      My goal is to do HDR color correction in Premiere Pro with Lumetri Color and Lumetri Scopes in HDR. After Effects doesn't have HDR scopes AFAIK. I then want to apply those color corrections to clips in After Effects, because I'm doing several versions and things with that color corrected clip.

       

      BUT....if I make a Lumetri Color setting in a Premiere Pro project on EXR sequence A, then import that Premiere Pro project into After Effects, find that Lumetri Color effect, then copy it to apply it to another version of the same EXR Sequence A and render out a new EXR sequence B from After Effects...sequence A doesn't match sequence B in Premiere Pro. At ALL.

       

      Examples: Here's the Lumetri Scopes readouts of an EXR sequence I've imported into Premiere Pro and applied a Lumetri Color color correction on, compared with the same clip with the same Lumetri Color effect applied in After Effects, rendered out to a new EXR sequence and dropped into Premiere Pro:

       

      COMBO.jpg

       

      ...and here's the actual images from the program window in Premiere Pro. Again: EXR Sequence A with Lumetri Color effect applied in Premiere on the left; then the same clip with the same Lumetri Color setting applied in After Effects and rendered out to a new EXR sequence and brought back into Premiere on the right:

       

      Combo2.jpg

       

      Now in the old days I would have blamed this on Quicktime doing some color shifting or oddness in the Premiere vs After Effects color interpretations, but remember I've already done render tests to show that WITHOUT Lumetri, they match dead on. So it appears Lumetri Color is inconsistent between the two programs. Does anybody know of a way to fix this?

       

      I recognize that I could pre-render the EXR sequence out of Premiere and bring it into After Effects and work from there, but that introduces additional problems of render time and drive space and another intermediate file to track and media management and organizational time and...ICK. I don't wanna.

       

      Thoughts, suggestions, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

        • 1. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
          Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

          Exact Ae version/ Exact Pr Version?

          are you working 32bpc in Ae?

          is color management the same between the two Apps?

          (In Ae you can access them in Ae's project settings)

          • 2. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
            MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

            latest AE & Premiere, on Mac, working in 32 bit in AE.

             

            Color management - Premiere doesn't color manage, so I've turned off color management for both the clip and the project in AE.

             

            I don't think color management is the issue, since I've gotten the files to match between the two programs except for when Lumetri is used.

            • 3. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
              Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

              I ran a regular test to see if I get consistent results. created an HD sequence applied the lumetri color and did a curves adjustment. then I copy pasted the sequence to Ae and the result look the same. if you want, you could upload a reduced Pr project with just one frame with the lumetri applied and I could test it in my system to see if I get consistent results Between the two Apps

              • 4. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                Interesting - was your image sequence standard dynamic range or HDR? I was using the Lightroom style controls in Lumetri towards the top - blacks/shadows/highlights/whites/HDR specular highlight, that section.

                 

                Thanks for spending time on this!

                • 5. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                  antoniocasado Level 1

                  Hi MikeCurtis_1138, I have a question regarding these HDR scopes. How do setup it to see the HDR highlights?. I have some Sony F55 Raw files that in the Raw Viewer I can see these peaks, like this:

                   

                  Raw viewer_F55_SLOG3.JPG

                  But when I load these MXF files and see it in Lumetri (proper configured to see HDR, I think), I see this:

                   

                  Lumetri_F55_SLOG3.JPG

                   

                  I can export in OpenEXR and MXF from Sony Raw Viewer but the resulting files are equal to the original MXF. So, how I set Premiere to show these scopes like the Sony Raw viewer?

                   

                  Thanks!

                  • 6. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                    MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                    Hey Antonio -

                     

                    I just upgraded to the 2017 versions but haven't read up on if anything is different in all of this.

                     

                    So: Thing I KNOW were true for the prior-to-2017 versions:

                     

                    -Premiere will accept HDR footage in two formats - OpenEXR and PQ encoded JPEG2000. I don't know of a single tool to do the latter, so I went with OpenEXR.

                     

                    -so I wouldn't expect the MXF to be supported for HDR work natively

                     

                    Things I SUSPECT or THINK are true but can't say 100% definitively:

                     

                    -it appears that anything other than the two formats listed above will clip to 100 IRE. I think that's what  is happening with your MXF files.

                     

                    -While you exported as OpenEXR, it appears that the export process you used in Sony Raw Viewer is clipping to 100 IRE. I see this problem OFTEN - a lot of programs that supported .exr do so in the standard 0-100 IRE range, even though the .exr format can support a much broader range.

                     

                    SO - it would appear that you're handling the footage correctly within Premiere - there's no settings or color space anything to apply to make it HDR-y (phrasing?), but I think the challenge lies in trying to find a way (or more accurately a tool) to convert your MXF files into OpenEXR AND have the full extended dynamic range encoded in there and not clipped to 100 IRE.

                     

                    So hopefully that helps to identify the problem, I'm sorry but I don't know a solution to get you there the rest of the way.

                     

                    I'm going to start messing around with the freebie DaVinci Resolve from BMD and see if I can PQ encode JPEG 2000 in there. But of course, if I have that, why not just do my grading in there?

                     

                    -mike

                    • 7. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                      antoniocasado Level 1

                      Hi Mike. The thing is that you can import a MP4 with HDR, ant it looks with the Scopes in HDR, look:

                       

                      Lumetri_HDR_MP4.JPG

                      I have tried to export various type of EXR from the Sony tool, but I don´t find the exact type of export I need...16 or 32bits per pixel, or what type of data from the MXF loaded...

                       

                      I have some tests made from either SDR and pseudo-HDR (as I cannot import direct HDR as for now), and while it appears so show it good, I think that I´m missing some workflow in how to make these HDR adjustments in Lumetri.

                       

                      Hum, good point that export PQ J2K from resolve, try it and if works maybe try I too to see...

                       

                      Also, I imagine that HDR in Resolve it´s more easy and convenient, isn´t?. At least to make some export to finally make a H265+HDR in Premiere in the last stage...

                       

                      Thanks!

                      • 8. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                        MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                        OK, that's news to me! I am guessing that is a new feature in CC 2017.

                         

                        When I've done HDR in Premiere (2015.3), it only supported the two formats listed. And there was no setting to apply to the material - it just worked, dropped on any timeline.

                         

                        Checking in v2017, there's no color settings in Properties, Interpret Footage, or Source Settings having to do with color, so it appears that it should "just work" or not based on the file that you bring in.

                         

                        BTW - I have tested HDR HEVC/H.265 output and it WORKS - I can play it from a memory stick plugged into my Samsung HDR set and it looks great! Except I'm getting banding, but I suspect that is a Samsung issue and not an Adobe issue - I don't see that banding on my 8 bit computer display.

                        • 9. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                          MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                          Not to ding Adobe (because if it did everything I wanted I'd gladly use it due to integration with the rest of the Adobe Suite - my workflow is After Effects heavy so I love it for that) - but Resolve is, um, FREE if you can live without the HDR scopes ($1000 for the version with that feature, unfortunately).

                           

                          But PQ encoding your MXFs and exporting as JPEG2000 might be a way to prep the content in a way you like - and if you could normalize to the peak brightness you want, all the better.

                           

                          Speaking of which - the current UHD Premium Alliance specification calls for a minimum of 1000 nits. I'm trying to figure out if I should aim for that or 2000 nits? Don't the sets adjust on the fly for this? Something more to test....

                           

                          -mike

                          • 10. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                            MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                            BTW- on your scopes, don't forget to set the Colorspace to Rec2020.

                            • 11. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                              antoniocasado Level 1
                              But PQ encoding your MXFs and exporting as JPEG2000 might be a way to prep the content in a way you like - and if you could normalize to the peak brightness you want, all the better

                              Oh, maybe that´s work!. It is possible to load these Sony F55 files and export in JPEG2000 PQ in Ressolve?. Will try to see if works.

                               

                              Premiere can export in MXF OP1 J2K PQ, but Sony Raw Viewer cannot read it.

                               

                              Another question is to make a HDR version of SDR material. I have done some test but I don´t know if I am at the right direction, because not HDR display attached in my system and I take the Lumetri Scopes as reference to see what happens. If you have some ideas about how to proceed in these situations, I will appreciate it, as I not have found any information via Adobe to make HDR adjustments, even with HDR material :-(

                              • 12. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                                antoniocasado Level 1

                                Ok MikeCurtis_1138, I have solved it!. Exporting in ACES/Linear via the Sony Raw Viewer I can export all the HDR data that PREMIERE can read it!. Sooo good!

                                • 13. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                                  MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                                  Sweet! Also, I checked and yeah, .mp4 HDR support is new - I got it to work on my system as well - that opens up some good workflow options - next on my To Try list is using .mp4 proxies to stand in for higher resolution EXR files (or whatever) so that I can have realtime performance. I can't get 24fps UHD playback AT ALL on my Late 2013 MacBook Pro (topped out/pimped out for what was available at the time), but 1080p it can do - so I'll be digging into Proxy Workflow stuff next.

                                  • 14. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                                    MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                                    "HDR version of an SDR material" - I think this is a dead end - you don't have the information in the shot you need to distinguish "pretty bright" from "super duper bright" - and stretching the dynamic range of SDR to HDR isn't the answer, even with a custom curve, for the same reason. There are some TVs that offer this mode, but they have the same problem, and the results look like bad photographic HDR - ick.

                                    • 15. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                                      antoniocasado Level 1

                                      Yes, you are right, but this is the same question with the "Real 3D" and "Converted 3D" dilemma. There is good and bad converted 3D and the same with real 3D.

                                       

                                      Of course, from a graded and finished shot you cannot go to nowhere. In fact I have done some tests and you cannot push the lights so much, because there is not information to play with.

                                       

                                      But from a simple LOG image (not raw), you can tweak more it. Of course you don´t have the data of the highlights, but you have some information to play with it.

                                       

                                      Now with the HDR ability of Youtube, loads of people want to make his own HDR version of his familiar videos, and we can see horrendous ones, but maybe some good ones.

                                       

                                      I think that we are in a new era and the things are fast, very fast, and we cannot catch em.

                                      • 16. Re: Lumetri Color - doesn't match between Premiere and After Effects for HDR
                                        MikeCurtis_1138 Level 1

                                        Not quite - with coverted 3D, there's information that can be gleaned from neighboring frames to help the process. Plus, it is incredibly laborious and needs lots of "hand guiding" - I'd say HDR conversion faces similar challenges, but lacks any clues as to how bright things are from adjacent frames. And they're just offsetting existing data to make the second frame, not boosting brightnesses to levels that never were in the source. Short version - it is harder to do well.