27 Replies Latest reply on Oct 26, 2016 4:41 AM by lericramzy

    A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?

    lericramzy

      Hello there

       

      As suggested by R Neil Haugen, i create a post in the hardware section. It seems Bill Gehrke hangs out there, and SAFEHARBOR11 too. Since you are two geniuses, he directed me to you, among other great tech guys.

       

      I'd like to improve the smoothness of the scrubbing performances of my actual computer. I can see the video card only as the component to enhance.

       

      My computer:

      intel i7-4930k on Asrock extrem 4

      32 go of ram gskill

      SSD Samsung 840 pro 128 go  for Windows and premiere

      SSD Samsung 840 evo 500 go  for video media and premiere cache

      1 To HDDs for saves

      GTX570 asus

       

      Of course, i'd like to keep on editing without transcoding the avchd files from my GH2.

      I know, proxie is the best way to achieve a perfect scrub. But if i have an hardware option to get rid of it, i wanna grab it.

       

      Here is an exemple of the actual laggy scrubbing perf of my computer:

       

      I often edit 2 layers, one being resized.

       

      I'm wondering if i don't have an issue somewhere. I've heard sometimes numerous drives plugged to the motherboard make a bandwidth "conflict" between the drives and reduce the perf of them. I've got 5 drives (2 SSD and 3 HDD) + 1 bluray reader. But i don't know how to test that.

       

      Anyway, i'm wondering if upgrading to a quadro instead of a better gtx would improve better on the scrubbing side.

      And what possible gain a gtx 980 would give me compare to my gtx570 for scrubbing.

       

       

      I also heard of Tesla cards to speed up performances, as seen in this video.

      I know, it's an official nvidia video, but this is what kind of reactivity i want :
      NVIDIA Quadro and Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 Bring Your Vision To Life. Faster. - YouTube

       

      Any suggestions, infos are very welcome to help me.

       

      Nicolas

        • 1. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
          SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

          Hi Nicolas,

           

          No way you should need proxies with that system. Although the GTX 570 is older, I have a 5-yr-old PC with GTX 470 and it works fine. Perhaps Premiere is not using the GTX card for GPU Acceleration? Go to File > Project Settings > General and see if Renderer is set to Software or GPU. You want GPU obviously. You will take a big performance hit in Software mode.

           

          I should ask - which Premiere version are you on? Anyway, you don't want a Quadro card for Premiere - they have higher cost and less performance compared to GTX cards, such as new GTX 1070 or 1080 models. Premiere uses CUDA cores for acceleration, and the GTX cards simply have an abundance of them compared to Quadro.

           

          One suggestion - make sure you follow this method for importing media. Copy entire SD card to a unique folder on your drive. Keep ALL folders, original structure intact. Then in Premiere, import via Media Browser rather than File > Import. This can sometimes help performance, as Premiere needs metadata that is included from camera card for best results, like joining spanned clips seamlessly and such.

           

          Thanks

           

          Jeff Pulera

          Safe Harbor Computers

          • 2. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
            R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            First ... the use of numerous drives has been the typical best-practice to get to good playback/performance with PrPro, NOT a log-jam creator. Don't worry about that. Also, Bill will be able to comment about the newer "hyper-speed" drives like the Samsung T1/3, and the m.2 and NVMe drives, where one can put entire projects on a single drive and edit without issues.

             

            Second, what a Quadro card primarily gives is the ability to send a 10-bit signal to a full 10-bit monitor. Your media is clearly only 8-bit, and I see no reason you'd need that spendy a monitor, so ... that would be an expensive change for little gain in performance.

             

            That re-sized layer is where the capabilities of a better GPU might come in, if I recall things correctly. Bill & Jeff (safeharbor11) should be able to give good info on that.

             

            Neil

            • 3. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
              Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              1.  Have you tuned your computer to get rid of unnecessary processes that steal CPU cycles?

              2.  Have you monitored your GPU usage with GPU-Z especially the sensors tab for Memory Clock and GPU Load?

              3.  Try simple overclocking of the GTX-570 with the ASUS tool or I am using the EVGA Precision X tool.  Just concentrate on raising the Memory Clock.  Below is my adjustment to this laptop.

              4.  Your CPU can also be simply overclock just slightly to gain smoother editing.

              5.  I have an i7-4700HQ, 24 GB RAM that does real well even with simple XAVC-S 4K 100 Mbit/sec media.  I would guess I only have half the CPU power the you should have.

               

              If you would like to test your computer with real Premiere Pro operation go to my PPBM benchmark, download, and run it and submit the results.  You can also give us here the data from the resulting Output.csv file.  The benchmark consists of four tests, one CPU intensive, one Disk intensive and two with major GPU acceleration.

              • 4. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                JEShort01 Level 4

                Nicolas,

                 

                I just did some "playing" in your behalf on a beefy system to try and flush out where you need more speed on your particular system and considering your requested workflow - 2 layer AVCHD 4K scrubbing. If I'm misunderstanding this, please clarify! I have Sony 4K and you are using GH4 media, so I am assuming these to be similar taxing on Premiere Pro.

                 

                 

                First, two tweaks that have not been mentioned yet, or at least I did not notice mention of them yet in this and your previous thread on the Premiere Pro (not hardware) forum section:

                - Drive Policies for all your drives: write caching policy / Enable write caching on the device = checked; turn off windows write-cache buffer flushing = checked (this could be a bit risker for PC hard shutdowns due to power failure, but is completely safe if you have a UPS)

                - Drive Properties / General - Uncheck both boxes (Compress files to save drive space and allow files on this drive to have contents indexed)

                 

                 

                Next, bottom line - you may benefit significantly from a much newer and faster video card. As you'll see below, two-layer 4K AVCHD is using up to 65% of a GTX 980 Ti GPU!

                 

                 

                My test setup:

                - dual 6-core Xeon; Win 8.1 Pro 64-bit, 128GB or RAM

                - 8x RAID 0 SSD data array (media, project, scratch, cache, etc.)

                - boot drive / OS / programs Intel 750 PCIe NVME drive

                - GTX 980 Ti

                - multi-layer AVCHD test project ranging from 1 to 5 layers

                - playback to 4K monitor

                - latest Premiere Pro CC 2015

                 

                 

                Test results:

                - playback and scrubbing for dual layer = PERFECT, and I do mean perfect

                - during fast two-layer scrubbing CPU utilization (low, around 4 to 10%)

                - during fast two-layer scrubbing GPU utilization (significant, 25 to 65%)

                - RAM only 15GB in play (OS/Premiere Pro); suggest your leave 8GB free for "other applications" for your 32GB RAM system for Premiere Pro memory settings

                - scrubbing was not perfect on two-layer test section prior to doing a one-pass timeline playback at real time. Premiere Pro must be building something (scratch/cache?) and CPU was peaking up to over 50% during 1st time playback (after opening the project). Initial and subsequent timeline real-time playback for two-layer was zero lost frames (high-quality and playback resolution = full)

                 

                 

                Regards,

                 

                 

                Jim

                • 5. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                  lericramzy Level 1

                  Hello Jeff,

                   

                  Thanks to answer. Yep, my GPU is activated. In fact i have the mercury engine playback option and Mainconcept renderer (gpu acceleration). I don't know if there's any difference.

                   

                  I use premiere cs5.5 for now.

                   

                  I'll try your suggestion on next project. I was dragging the files from my windows folder into the premiere media browser directly But if my sd card has files not related with the current project, may i delete them ?

                   

                  Nicolas

                  • 6. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                    lericramzy Level 1

                    So you think my actual scrubbing as seen on the video is not what i should get ?

                    • 7. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                      lericramzy Level 1

                      Hi Neil

                       

                      I heard that story about multiple drives being a problem when the controler on your motherboard can't handle them altogether. Sometimes because you need to plug them in a right order, or pairing them on the sata plugs in a better way. But i never get to know how to detect if i have this issue, or how to prevent it.

                       

                      Samsung T1/3, and the m.2 and NVMe drives are new SDD drives ?

                       

                      I see. I'm definetly not going to buy a 10 bit monitor and you're right, my GH2 produces 8bit videos. So i forget about Quadro cards.

                       

                      Alright. The resize effect must be part of those effects which benefits from mercury engine. I have to make a precision. I have no playback issues. It is almost everytime smooth when i hit play. I want upgrade for a better scrubbing. So much more comfortable.

                       

                      Nicolas

                      • 8. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                        R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Resizing does use GPU ... so the "Mercury Acceleration" is of use for re-sizing, definitely.

                         

                        If a motherboard can't handle multiple drives, it's a pretty p*ss poor motherboard. Most desktop mobo's that one would choose are built with connections for eight or more SATA connections, and probably have a couple NVMe or m.2 connections also. They don't build those on the board for looks. Multiple drives have been a staple of desktop computers for a long time.

                         

                        Some laptops are still built pretty ... weak. And may not totally be able to pass multiple streams along. Again, these are not rigs that would tend to have enough CPU, RAM, and other parts that one would normally find PrPro ... pleasant ... on them.

                         

                        The Samsung T1/T3 drives are external SSD's running through USB3 ports. They are not just another SSD drive, however ... they've really massaged the guts of their on-board cache/read/write streams to maximize throughput with figures that Bill has tested that are very close to internal SSD speeds. Stunning over a USB port.

                         

                        You can look up m.2 and NVMe drives on the internet, of course. They are solid-state storage systems somewhat similar to SSD drives, but with different connections and on-board processing and internal architectures such that the sustained throughput is equivalent to or above running a striped RAID 0 array with many large discs.

                         

                        Neil

                        • 9. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                          RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                          after watching the video, i don't see any hardware bottlenecks to recommend a new video card or m.2 drive. if there was a hardware problem/bottleneck the mpeg2 transcode (which was more demanding in the video) would have been worse while scrubbing. you can also disregard the technical statements neil made about the samsung usb drive and m.2 as they are incorrect. there are hardware requirements for the usb and m.2 ssd drives, if not met they will have a performance penalty or might not work at all.

                           

                          as far as multiple drives having performance issues goes, that can happen if you are trying to raid 3-4 ssd's on the motherboard chipset. you don't list any raid setup, so there shouldn't be a problem with that. something that might cause a problem is if the ssd is connected to a slow sata controller, like a marvell controller or sata 2. if you want to verify the ssd isn't being slowed down by a slow sata port on the motherboard, you can run a drive speed program like crystaldiskmark to see how fast its able to read and write. a slow sata port might limit it to around 200-250mb, while the 840 evo should be able to hit closer to 450-500mb.

                           

                          i think you are dealing with more of a software issue with premiere and the media. there are several old threads with people having problems with avchd in cs5.5, like this one Slow/choppy playback - cache buffering issue. some of the other threads had solutions with importing the media like jeff from safe harbor recommended. if there is a bug with cs5.5, then you would have to use a different version of premiere or transcode to a different codec. some of the others here may be more familiar with cs5.5 to recall known problems and solutions. you can also search thru and read old threads to try the various solutions others found. if you run the ppbm test bill recommends, he might be able to identify if premiere is working properly on your computer.

                          • 10. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                            lericramzy Level 1

                            Hello Bill, thank you for your help.


                            1.  I kill some processes when i know i don't need them, but that's it.
                            2.  Nope, i use Process explorer only
                            3.  I haven't thought of overclocking the gpu itself, good idea.

                            4.  I have thought about that. I wait my new pc tower to put my hands in it.

                            5.  Maybe XAVC-S 4K 100 Mbit/sec media are lighter to edit than the avchd from the GH2. Or you have enhance your PC better.

                             

                            Alright, i'll try the PPBM test, thanks.

                            • 11. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                              lericramzy Level 1

                              Hello Jim,

                               

                              Sorry for my late answer, and thank you for yours.

                               

                              For now, i'm not editing 4K, only 1080p from my GH2. But in this upgrade process, i'd like to be ready for the future, as i'm planning to upgrade my camera later next year. But this is not a top priority.

                               

                              About the tweaks. The boxes are uncheck for the second one. But i don't know where to find the settings for the first one.

                               

                              Wow, your setup is quite crazy. Do i need to upgrade everything if i want to achieve a perfect scrubbing on 2 layers 1080p ?

                              On my personnal tests, the gpu load never get higher than 15%, so i'm wondering if i would really benefit of a better scrubbing with a new video card.

                              I change to 8G free for other applications as you suggested.

                               

                              "- scrubbing was not perfect on two-layer test section prior to doing a one-pass timeline playback at real time. Premiere Pro must be building something (scratch/cache?) and CPU was peaking up to over 50% during 1st time playback (after opening the project). Initial and subsequent timeline real-time playback for two-layer was zero lost frames (high-quality and playback resolution = full)"

                               

                              This is very intriguing. In real life, i'm not going to playback the entire sequences before editing them.

                               

                              Regards,

                               

                              Nicolas

                              • 12. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                lericramzy Level 1

                                "Resizing does use GPU ... so the "Mercury Acceleration" is of use for re-sizing, definitely."

                                On my test i didn't noticed any GPU load change between a single layer and a two video layer with resizing...

                                 

                                The only strang thing i notice about my SSD, is the result in HD tune pro, since i see no difference in Crystaldiskmark:

                                disques.jpg

                                 

                                M.2 and NVMe drives seems great but my Asrock extreme4 doesn't have the required ports...

                                 

                                Nicolas

                                • 13. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                  lericramzy Level 1

                                  I don't understand what you mention about the mpeg2, since i used them as transcoded media in the past. They are less extensive on my setup. Mpeg2 are not as heavy compressed as h264. And you can see the scrubbing is really better on a single layer. It's approximately what i want to achieve on a 2 layers with resizing timeline.

                                   

                                  Don't you think a Tesla M2090 or C2075 in addition to my gtx (or a newer one) would help for scrubbing with h264 from my gh2 ?

                                   

                                  I check on my motherboard, and my 2 SSD are on sata3 ports. Not sure about the controller. The pro and evo are around 500mb.

                                   

                                  I don't think i have an issue with Premiere cs5.5 in fact. But i try Premiere cc 2015, and the scrubbing is a little bit smoother. At least a little bit more reactive. Not to the point i wanted, but it's a start.
                                  The thing i don't understrand, is i'm open to advice for an upgrade, but nothing seem to be able to improve scrubbing.

                                   

                                  About PPBM, i have those results:

                                  output:          "78","87","62","67"

                                  output-MPE: "78","87","62","5"

                                  I don't know if this is good or bad

                                  • 14. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                    lericramzy Level 1

                                    I ask Ronin but it is an open question to everyone.

                                    Don't you think a Tesla M2090 or C2075 in addition to my gtx570 (or a newer one) would help for scrubbing with h264 from my Gh2 ?

                                    • 15. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                      RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                                      that HD Tune score on the 840 evo 500gb is really poor. if that is the performance of the ssd while scrubbing media in premiere, it might be causing problems. can you copy some media clips to the 840 evo 128gb ssd and see if that helps improve scrubbing in premiere?

                                       

                                      the asrock x79 extreme4 appears to have an asmedia sata 3 controller, the bottom two grey sata ports. the two grey ports next to the black ports should be the intel controller ports and should be slightly better to use for your two ssd's.

                                       

                                      the gtx 570 is between 2-15% usage, so i don't see how a more powerful video card can help. premiere doesn't use any of the advanced features in the quadro or tesla to boost performance. those advertisements from nvidia for quadro/tesla and intel for dual xeons are just a way to rip off uninformed people and sell them the most expensive hardware.

                                      • 16. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                        lericramzy Level 1

                                        I try and copy some media to the 840 pro 128gb ssd, but i don't see any real difference when scrubbing... As the Crystaldiskmark results are quite the same, maybe it doesn't make a difference. Or maybe because the pro is the system SSD, and the evo has who my video project, many video files i copy then delete.... so his result in HD tune seems different. I don't know.

                                         

                                        "the asrock x79 extreme4 appears to have an asmedia sata 3 controller, the bottom two grey sata ports. the two grey ports next to the black ports should be the intel controller ports and should be slightly better to use for your two ssd's"
                                        I'm not going to change the port for the os SSD, else windows is not going to boot. I'll see for the other one. But the sata ports are behind the video card, so i have to remove it to see what's going on there. Very practical...

                                         

                                         

                                        "the gtx 570 is between 2-15% usage, so i don't see how a more powerful video card can help" I agree with this logic, but i also have this answer here from JEShort01: "you may benefit significantly from a much newer and faster video card". So i'm confused now

                                         

                                        "Premiere doesn't use any of the advanced features in the quadro or tesla to boost performance"

                                        So this video about quadro+tesla with an incredible scrubbing is a fake ?
                                        NVIDIA Quadro and Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 Bring Your Vision To Life. Faster. - YouTube

                                        • 17. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                          lericramzy Level 1

                                          It's like there's no way to improve scrubbing... i'm sure it's possible to have something better. Pros are not transcoding, and they have crazy scrubbing on 6k footages. I'm ready to invest some money, but i read there's no bottleneck on my setup results. Since my videocard is the oldest and the less powerful, i thought i would get something from there.

                                           

                                          For now i feel confused ans frustrated.

                                           

                                          I'm wondering in what range overclocking the CPU is able to give me extra smoothness for scrubbing.

                                          • 18. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                            Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            I am working on your PPBM test results and will get to them later this evening.  It is an obsolete test to work on your Premiere 5.5 so I have to spend some time reacquainting myself with that previous generation test.

                                            • 19. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                              lericramzy Level 1

                                              That's nice of you
                                              I'll try the Premiere CC 2015 test on the trial version i got. It could be interesting too.

                                              • 20. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                JEShort01 Level 4

                                                Nicolas,

                                                 

                                                My post had assumed that your were using CC 2015 and now I know that you are not. My bad... the only mention of Adobe version in your original post in the Premiere forum (not hardware forum) mentioned CC, so I assumed that is what you were running.

                                                 

                                                I don't think that you are likely to ever see stunning results with CS 5.5. That release came out 5 1/2 years ago and 4K codecs were not that prevalent at that time. Newer Premiere Pro releases since then definitely seem to use more RAM and GPU resources, and there might be other enhancements in the code as well. 5.5 years is a long time for software (and hardware)!

                                                 

                                                Yes, I have a strong system, but my point in my previous post was that most resources were just loafing along when scrubbing dual layer 4K, except that my pretty strong video card was working pretty hard. (with CC 2015 of course)

                                                 

                                                Regarding my having to play through a section before scrubbing works "perfect", scrubbing still works prior to playing back through a section, it is jut not "perfect" (your goal here I thought).

                                                 

                                                Regards,

                                                 

                                                Jim

                                                • 21. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                  RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                                                  RoninEdits wrote:
                                                  "Premiere doesn't use any of the advanced features in the quadro or tesla to boost performance.

                                                   

                                                  lericramzy wrote:
                                                  So this video about quadro+tesla with an incredible scrubbing is a fake ?

                                                  NVIDIA Quadro and Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 Bring Your Vision To Life. Faster. - YouTube

                                                   

                                                  its misleading and doesn't tell the full story. again, the video is an advertisement for expensive nvidia hardware to sucker uninformed video editors into wasting money on quadro/tesla and make more money for nvidia. the cpu's are very important to mention as they decode the media but in the video he never mentions what cpu(s) are in the system, only that is a "high end system". in the video he says they are using a tesla 2075, but your gtx 570 is more powerful than that tesla.

                                                  • 22. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                    Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    lericramzy wrote:

                                                     

                                                    That's nice of you
                                                    I'll try the Premiere CC 2015 test on the trial version i got. It could be interesting too.

                                                    Now I know why we abandoned PPBM5, I just tried analyzing your data compared to my old data and the one other i7-4930K CPU result I found.  It was too erratic for me to draw any real conclusions so I had to give up.  If you do get the opportunity to run the newer Direct Export testing it would be a simple to give you some help. 

                                                    • 23. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                      lericramzy Level 1

                                                      Good to know

                                                      I was asking since it's possible to find used Tesla at 300€ instead of 4000€ brandnew.

                                                      • 24. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                        lericramzy Level 1

                                                        Hey Jim,

                                                         

                                                        I've been playing with the trial version of Premiere CC 2015, and it's a little bit more reactive with my current setup. Something interesting there.

                                                         

                                                        What does "loafing along" means ? I'm french, so i could misunderstand sometimes.

                                                         

                                                        So i'm wondering at what degree i need to upgrade my components, in order to get a pretty smooth scrubbing. Is it possible for you to make a quick video of your perfect scrubbing, to see if we're talking about the same quality ?

                                                         

                                                        Nicolas

                                                        • 25. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                          lericramzy Level 1

                                                          I understand, no problem.

                                                          But i can't open the project. I have this strange message (i translate it from my french version, so it may varies with the original english one):

                                                          "This project contain an impossible to open sequence. No preconfiguration preview file of sequence or codec is linked to this type of sequence" ???

                                                          • 26. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                            JEShort01 Level 4

                                                            No problem Nicolas!

                                                             

                                                            Loafing along means "hardly working" (loafing is slang for sitting around doing nothing). So, put another way much of the system was not working hard at all while the GPU was really working much more.

                                                             

                                                            Specifically, when I had a two-layer 4K timeline and was scrubbing "perfectly" (updating all scrubbed frames instantaneously):

                                                            - Drive(s) - not mentioned before, but the READ/WRITE activity was relatively low during my scrubbing test

                                                            - CPU - 2 to 10% utilized - also, very low and NOT likely the critical path for scrubbing performance on my system or yours

                                                            - GPU - 25 to 65% - OK, so the GPU is working for this scrubbing workflow; and, 25% to 65% of the capacity of a GTX 980 Ti is a whole, whole lot more GPU "power" than your current GPU has to offer (more cores, more memory bandwidth, more VRAM, etc.)

                                                            - RAM usage - also low; RAM usage was much less than you have in your system

                                                             

                                                            Jim

                                                            • 27. Re: A quadro or Tesla for perfect scrubbing ?
                                                              lericramzy Level 1

                                                              Hello again,

                                                               

                                                              I finally got to make the test work on a newer version of Premiere.

                                                              I ended with these results: "271","370","36","525", Premiere Version:, 10.4.0.30

                                                               

                                                              In addition, i seem to have an issue with my ram:

                                                              ram problem.jpg

                                                              I don't know how to make it better.

                                                               

                                                              And for Neil my SSD results are no good. Wondering how does it happen, and how to make it better too ?

                                                              disques.jpg