33 Replies Latest reply on Nov 12, 2016 4:04 AM by bst7

    Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)

    bst7

      I am compiling a book in InDesign and the images presented in the book are Photoshop files. I exported the pictures (300ppi) from Lightroom as a PSD file. In InDesign, of the 66 images, about 10% of them do not have the "Maximise Compatibility" feature of the file. At first I disregarded this, but then the performance of InDesign was appalling.

       

      To workaround this problem I had to do the following:

      (1) I had to relink EVERY image and go though one by one, find out which ones did not have this feature from the Lightroom export.

      (2) Open those images in Photoshop and re-save them with the Compatibility option enabled (which is the default in Photoshop)

       

      Once I've done this, the InDesign performance is much better.

       

      This is very inconsistent behaviour with the Lightroom export feature. I see no option in the Export options of Lightroom to enable or disable this feature of the PSD export. So, I think this is a bug in Lightroom? My original files are mostly DNG files, some are PSD files (with many layers), but there seems no direct relationship between the source file and the resulting export that I can see.

       

      Thanks

       

      William

        • 1. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
          Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

          That option, Max Compat, isn't needed because it is only needed if there are layers involved. No layers LR can read the file just fine.

          • 2. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
            bst7 Level 1

            I don't think you read my email correctly. It made a HUGE difference to the drawing performance of InDesign when the files have this option. So, this is NOT the Correct Answer.

             

            Also, I would think it is of concern that LR's export is inconsistent, with most of the files exported having this feature, and some do not.

             

            William

             

            PS - how is this marked as "Correct Answer"? Who is responsible for doing that, and why do you think it is? Just Shoot Me!!!

            • 3. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
              Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

              My records show that YOU marked it as Correct.

               

              Also LR works directly with PS not InDesign. If you want to have all the images you use in InDesign saved with the Max Compat option enabled then use the Edit In option to send these files to PS and then Save them with that option set to Always. That is instead of Exporting them to the PSD format.

              You could also try exporting them as TIFFs and see if that works for you.

              • 4. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                That's right, that setting is moot as a Lightroom option. All max compatibility does is to include a composite flattened version. A Lightroom export is already flat.

                 

                However, InDesign still has to go fetch the linked PSD, and of course a complex layered file takes longer to process. I think I've always had this in the back of my head when working in ID, so I usually prepare flattened copies, resized to reproduction size, for placing in ID.

                • 5. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                  Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

                  bst7 wrote:

                   

                   

                   

                  Also, I would think it is of concern that LR's export is inconsistent, with most of the files exported having this feature, and some do not.

                   

                  William

                   

                   

                  I think you had at some time opened those other files in Photoshop or used the Edit In option in LR to send them to PS and then Saved them which would turn the Max Compat on. That is if you have that option set to Always.

                  I personally don't use the PSD format anymore. I always use TIFF.

                  • 6. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                    bst7 Level 1

                    No, I didn't mark it as correct. When I looked at your response initially it had been marked as correct. I tried to unmark it, but it didn't take for some reason, so that's probably why it shows me as marking it now.

                    • 7. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                      bst7 Level 1

                      I have no idea what you mean by "Also LR works directly with PS not InDesign" I am exporting files in a PhotoShop format, to use with ANY program that supports PSD files. There is NO SENSE that I am working "directly" with InDesign, or any other program, here.

                       

                      I think you are missing the point: do you understand the basic notion of "Export"? The problem is still not properly understood by you, which is that LR's export is actually inconsistent, most of the files have this "Maximum Compatibility" feature within them, but some do not. I know I can use TIF files, but we decided to use PSD files, and I would have thought that LR would export a CONSISTENT and CORRECT PSD file, wouldn't you? It doesn't.

                      • 8. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        bst, read my post again: "maximize compatibility" is moot in Lightroom, for the simple reason that a Lr Export is already flat.

                         

                        There may be a problem here, but it's somewhere else.

                        • 9. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                          bst7 Level 1

                          Yes, thanks, I understand "All max compatibility does is to include a composite flattened version. A Lightroom export is already flat." Basically, at least as far as I am concerned this is a LR bug. And that's all I'm reporting here. And yes, all my files are correctly sized, etc, in the export, but a good tip for sure.

                           

                          Given that that has an effect when using another Adobe product, this seemed worth bringing to attention and reporting. That's all I'm doing here.

                          • 10. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                            bst7 Level 1

                            No, please read my report again. It is NOT moot as far as other programs are concerned.  InDesign is an Adobe product. It WILL FLAG files that do NOT have this "Maximise Compatibility" feature in the file, and then it WILL DISPLAY those files VERY POORLY. This then is a problem for anyone (me!) using PSD files created by LR. Given that the export from LR is INCONSISTENT, the ultimate cause of this problem is LR's export to PSD implementation.

                             

                            Sorry for the capitalisation, but you really don't seem to understand the basic issue here. Anyone, I'm done.

                            • 11. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              I ran some quick tests in InDesign, placing 1. Lightroom Export to PSD, 2. flat PSD with the max comp setting on, and 3. layered PSD with max comp off.

                               

                              I honestly couldn't see any difference in ID performance. These are D800 files that are big by any standard, so any problem with the file should show.

                               

                              Granted, a quick test. I did this in an existing book file with about 60 pages.

                               

                              What do you have InDesign's Display Performance set to? On a high-performance system you should safely be able to set it to High Quality, but there is a reason for this option.

                              • 12. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Could it be this ID preference setting?

                                 

                                displayperf.png

                                • 13. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                  bst7 Level 1

                                  Thanks for trying it!

                                   

                                  My book has over 65 files, at 300ppi, but some are quite large because the book is a larger format. When I converted from TIF to PSD, about 10 of the files came in with the warning from InDesign, which I ignored at first(!) It pretty much became unusable from that point, so had to go through and relink every image to find out which ones didn't have this option (at least InD tells you it will have a problem). Then I just re-saved these files in PS with the feature set, and all was good again. I'm just using the "normal" display options as high quality does also create problems.

                                   

                                  It surprised me too, which is why I thought it would be useful to post about this issue here.

                                  • 14. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                    johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                    Is it possible this problem occurred just with PSDs that were created or edited within Photoshop?  There is an outstanding bug in PS where a PSD is not always saved with the compatibility layer even though you've set PS's preference option to do so.

                                    • 15. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                      Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

                                      Why did you make PSD files out of TIFF files?

                                      I don't use InDesign but I would suspect InDesign could read and use TIFF files.

                                      • 16. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                        bst7 Level 1

                                        No, DNG files are primarily the source files from LR

                                        • 17. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                          Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

                                          Then I suggest you export as TIFF and test that in InDesign. TIFF files don't need that PSD option of Max Compat.

                                          • 18. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                            bst7 Level 1

                                            You know, I just re-read my original post, and I think it is pretty clear that I am reporting what I think is a bug in LR, and that I already have a workaround. I thought it would be useful to report it

                                            1.  so that Adobe might look into it

                                            2. In case others might have similar issues

                                             

                                            Given that this causes a problem with one of Adobe's own apps, I thought it worthwhile.

                                             

                                            That's it. I have a "workaround", as I described in the original post if you would actually show me some respect and read it. This forum is pretty painful and unhelpful I have to say.

                                            • 19. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              If there is a problem with Lightroom export to PSD, in InDesign, others will have seen it too. I suggest you ask in the InDesign forum. I tried it, and had no problems that I could see.

                                               

                                              Why are you so sure it's not the relinking itself? InDesign files can get corrupted, especially files that you keep working on for some time. I've seen it happen, and in a few cases I had to export to idml, which cleans the file up pretty drastically, reopen and resave as a new indd.

                                              • 20. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                bst7 Level 1

                                                I'm pretty sure it's not the InD file. It gave me a warning when I linked those images, then I refused the relink, opened the file in PS, saved it with the max-comp option (overwriting the file LR had created), and then relinked it into InD, and it was fine.

                                                 

                                                So, I thought that pretty much ruled out it being a problem with InD, because it was telling me what the problem was with the file, which I fixed, and then it was fine.

                                                • 21. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                  johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                                  Bst7,

                                                   

                                                  I agree with D Fosse, something is going on, but I don't think it's an issue with LR -- more likely it's an issue with InDesign.  We'd like to help you troubleshoot the issue and submit a bug report in a way that will more likely get the attention of Adobe product developers.

                                                   

                                                  (I am quite familiar with the internal format of PSDs and PSBs, having developed an OS X QuickLook plugin that displays them, and I'm quite knowledgeable about LR and LR exports, being a long-time LR plugin developer.  I am also a "champion" in the official Adobe LR feedback forum, which is where Adobe wants bug reports submitted.)

                                                   

                                                  I honestly think it is very unlikely that LR would export a PSD that isn't "maximum compatible".   A "maximum compatible" PSD is one that contains a flattened copy of all the layers, stored in the compatibility layer.   Further, a one-layer PSD always stores that layer in the compatibility layer. So a one-layer PSD is always maximum compatible.  Since LR always exports PSDs with just one layer, they are by definition "maximum compatible".

                                                   

                                                  One possibility is that InDesign is mistakenly issuing the "maximize compatibility" warning for some other unrelated condition. See this thread for an example of InDesign doing that: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indesign-talk/-SsUfGtV0M8 . Perhaps LR sometimes generates a PSD that InDesign chokes on for some reason unrelated to maximize compatibility, either because of a LR bug or InDesign bug.

                                                   

                                                  You could go ahead a file a bug report in the official Adobe feedback forum for LR. But unless you have an example LR-generated PSD that InDesign chokes on, or you have a recipe that reliably produces such a file, I think (based on years of experience) it's very unlikely that Adobe product developers would pay much attention (unless many people reported the same problem).

                                                   

                                                  One brainstorm: Were the problem files HDR merges created by LR by any chance?

                                                  • 22. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                    Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

                                                    bst7 wrote:

                                                     

                                                    You know, I just re-read my original post, and I think it is pretty clear that I am reporting what I think is a bug in LR, and that I already have a workaround. I thought it would be useful to report it

                                                    1. so that Adobe might look into it

                                                    2. In case others might have similar issues

                                                     

                                                    Given that this causes a problem with one of Adobe's own apps, I thought it worthwhile.

                                                     

                                                    That's it. I have a "workaround", as I described in the original post if you would actually show me some respect and read it. This forum is pretty painful and unhelpful I have to say.

                                                    First this is a User to User forum and Adobe doesn't really read this forum looking for bugs or problems, in general.

                                                    If you think it is a bug, which I don't think it is, then you should post this over at the Photoshop Family forum which Adobe does read.

                                                     

                                                    Photoshop Lightroom | Photoshop Family Customer Community

                                                     

                                                    As has been explained there is no need for that option in LR because when PSD is used as the export file format the image is already flattened and LR or PS has no problem reading these files.

                                                     

                                                    I'm sure if others were having this issue you would see posts about. But more than likely over on the InDesign forum as LR is doing exactly what it is designed to do.

                                                    • 23. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                      bst7 Level 1

                                                      Hi John,

                                                       

                                                      I appreciate your explanations and speculations, I'm just going on what I have observed. I have of course a reproducible case (I describe that in my first post), so I'm not sure where you get the idea I can't reproduce this? Anyway... here it is again with pictures. It doesn't seem like anyone really understands here what is going on (which is fine, I don't either!), so will make the report to the other forum as you suggested.

                                                       

                                                      (1) Export (-Pano.DNG) to PSD from LR.

                                                      (2) Relink the "missing file" in my InDesign document

                                                      Screen Shot 2016-10-30 at 9.52.19 AM.png

                                                       

                                                      (3) I canceled the relink. Open the file in PS, it is one layer only. I saved the file in PS (the Max Comp dialog came up and I left that checked). I didn't do anything else to the file in PS, just saved it.

                                                      (4) Relink the file into InDesign, it relinks just fine.

                                                       

                                                      So yes, an interesting suggestion John that this might have something to do with LR's "Merge" functions (in my case a Pano, not HDR).

                                                       

                                                      In order to rule that out, I next used a PSD file (with many layers and some LR tweaks after the PS work), as the source for the next LR Export to PSD. Same problem:

                                                       

                                                      Screen Shot 2016-10-30 at 10.25.33 AM.png

                                                       

                                                      So, that seems to rule that out (its not caused by Pano.dng files). Other PSD (and other Pano) files relinked with no problems.

                                                       

                                                      Finally, I also just used a source DNG file that had not left LR in editing, and was not a Pano (or HDR). Same problem:

                                                      Screen Shot 2016-10-30 at 10.26.10 AM.png

                                                       

                                                      I've kept all 3 of these "PSD" files that are triggering this problem, and the InDesign document. They are all single layer PSD files when opened in PS. If saved in PS (with Max Comp set) and relinked in InDesign, the problem goes away.

                                                       

                                                      Thanks

                                                       

                                                      William

                                                      • 24. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                        johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                                        I didn't know whether you had a reproducible case or not, so I explained that it wasn't likely worthwhile to post a bug report in this case unless you did.   If you submit a bug report, I encourage you to include sample files (e.g. uploaded to Dropbox), for two reasons: 1) It makes it much more likely Adobe will be able to reproduce the bug and file it in their internal issue-tracking system, and 2) It lets other experts on the forums help narrow down the problem, spell it out for Adobe,  and/or suggest easier workarounds.

                                                         

                                                        Reported bugs usually don't get filed into Adobe's internal issue-tracking system unless an Adobe employee is able to reproduce the problem or there are many me-toos.  Sample files make it more likely Adobe is able to reproduce the problem.  While infrequently Adobe will you to send them files confidentially, that usually only happens for bugs with many me-toos or with potentially very serious impact (e.g. catalog corruption).

                                                        • 25. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          I think we need to look at this more systematically. But we need to make two things clear first:

                                                           

                                                          • that warning in InDesign is a generic warning. It does not mean you will get problems. What it means is that, if you have layered files, you will see a performance impact if there is no composite flattened layer that ID can extract and use. A layered file will simply take longer to process.
                                                          • Lightroom does not have a max compatibility setting because it's not needed. It's already flat. It's possible that InDesign just throws that warning because the flag is missing from the file. It does not necessarily mean more than that.

                                                           

                                                          IOW - there may well be a problem here, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the max comp setting.

                                                           

                                                          So. I admit to being a little confused as to what combinations produce which results in InDesign. To even out the playing field, the first thing I would do is set up two identical InDesign files - one with Lightroom exports to PSD exclusively, the other with flat PSDs from Photoshop, but with the max comp setting on. Obviously, both should originate from the same raw files.

                                                           

                                                          Do these two behave differently?

                                                          • 26. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                            johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                                            I've looked at the differences between PSDs exported by LR and by PS, examining a couple hundred PSDs exported from raw files, DNG, JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and merged DNGs.

                                                             

                                                            I only tried relinking a few of them into a sample InDesign document and wasn't able to reproduce the issue.

                                                             

                                                            LR never includes the "hasRealMergedData" field (image resource ID 1057), while PS does.  The old PSD "spec" is ambiguous as to whether that field is supposed to be required, but in practice, applications pick up the merged compatibility layer whether the field is present or not, because they have to look for its presence in the case of one-layer files.  But perhaps in some but not all cases, the field's absence is contributing to InDesign's confusion.

                                                             

                                                            As for DNGs produced by LR's Photo Merge, LR is needlessly including a copy of the merged compatibility layer as the first layer in the exported PSD. The only impact this should have is to double the exported PSD file size needlessly -- any correct app should still read the compatibility layer.  This may contribute to InDesign's confusion, though it doesn't explain the other cases you've encountered.

                                                             

                                                            At this point, the most effective way to troubleshoot the issue is to have access to the sample suspect files.  If they cause a problem with a fresh InDesign document, then a detailed examination of the files is called for, to see if there's something specific about how LR generated them that's different from most exported PSDs.  If they don't, then it's almost certainly an issue with InDesign getting confused by valid PSDs. 

                                                            • 27. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                              bst7 Level 1

                                                              Please read my original posting.

                                                              • 28. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                There's nothing in your original post that indicates you have tested this systematically. It seems to me you have already made up your mind, and just want confirmation.

                                                                 

                                                                You should take this over to the InDesign forum.

                                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                                • 29. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                                  bst7 Level 1

                                                                  Hi John,

                                                                   

                                                                  Fair enough on the warning (sorry, the level of repetition in this thread is becoming annoying!)

                                                                   

                                                                  In any case, greatly appreciate your explanation on the file formats and thoughts.

                                                                   

                                                                  I have a test case now:

                                                                  (1) Completely new InDesign file with just 3 pages, same size as the document I've been working on

                                                                  (2) Brand new PSD generated from LR of one of the DNG that caused the problem

                                                                   

                                                                  Still able to reproduce the problem. I'm happy to send you a link to the test case so you can download and have a look at it. So, send me a message.

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks

                                                                   

                                                                  William

                                                                  • 30. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                                    johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                                                    With sample files and more investigation by William, I definitively identified a LR bug.  When exporting PSDs from the results of Photo > Photo Merge, it isn't producing completely correct compatibility layers.  InDesign thus ignores the compatibility layer and produces the warning. It's certainly plausible that when a document contains many such PSDs, InDesign could slow down considerably, because it's using a much slower code path for interpreting multi-layer PSDs.

                                                                     

                                                                    See this bug report: Lightroom: PSDs exported from merged photos don't have correct compatibility layer, causing problems with InDesign | Pho…

                                                                    • 31. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                                      bst7 Level 1

                                                                      Thanks John for your help in validating my original assertion.

                                                                       

                                                                      Just for clarity, there are two possible workarounds should you encounter the problem:

                                                                      (1) use TIFF files

                                                                      (2) if you need to use PSD files, then if InD (or any other app) flags a problem with them, open those PSD files in PhotoShop and just save them, with the MaxComp flag set. PS will fix the files so they are correct.

                                                                       

                                                                      An apology, no doubt NOT coming, would be much appreciated from the two guys here who's bullying and disparaging comments dominated (and confused) this discussion. The time wasted was extraordinary for what was a pretty straight forward and obvious issue. But I doubt that either of you have the integrity or honesty to own up to your mistakes. That would by you "Just Shoot Me" and "D Fosse".

                                                                      • 32. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                        Don't be so dramatic.

                                                                         

                                                                        Yes, I was wrong - but that only became apparent because John tested this systematically. You never did that, you just insisted you were right and demanded that we should all take that at face value. That's always a dead certain way to rub people the wrong way.

                                                                         

                                                                        I hereby apologize. Can we move on now?

                                                                        • 33. Re: Lightroom's export to Photoshop problem (bug?)
                                                                          bst7 Level 1

                                                                          Not being dramatic. I'm just telling you how I felt about yours, and DSM's, comments and suggestions, which I found intimidating and with an assumption of ignorance on my behalf.

                                                                           

                                                                          And I really find your comment about "my never doing that" to be insulting. That is your point of view, and one you are entitled to hold of course. But to defend myself (as I feel I have had to do since this thread begun), the files John tested (and there were two different types of files), were files that I provided him, as I had  identified these to be likely culprits from a range of source files. This then (as John explains above) allowed him to  identify the feature of the files that was causing the problem, and could then file a bug report with reproducible cases.