1 2 Previous Next 72 Replies Latest reply on Dec 1, 2016 12:04 PM by trshaner

    Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images

    stevek4

      Using Lightroom 5 or Lightroom CC I am getting poor quality exported pictures from the Nikon D500, when other cameras, D800E, D3S, D3, export with good quality.  I am using the same export settings for any camera, JPEG, 300dpi, quality 90%, long edge 3216, sRGB.  The images from D800E, D3S, D3, appear as expected, while those with D500 (Lightroom 5 or CC and ACR 9.7) have a degraded quality that looks compressed with additional noise.

       

      This appears to be a LR issue, not with the camera, because processing with Photoshop 6 or Photoshop CC works just fine.

        • 1. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
          dj_paige Level 9

          Can you show us a screen capture of before vs after export?

          • 2. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
            stevek4 Level 1

            yes I can.  Here are a couple of samples from D500Image processed in LR 1.pngImage with PhotoMechanic Only 1.pngImage processed in LR 2.pngImage with PhotoMechanic Only 2.pngImage with PM & PS 2.png

            • 3. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
              dj_paige Level 9

              What do these images have to do with your Lightroom problem?

              • 4. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                stevek4 Level 1

                each image shows what Lightroom does with processing vs what Photoshop or just Photo Mechanic does.  Lightroom is doing a terrible job of processing and adding 10x noise to each image rendering it virtually useless for news/wire services.

                • 5. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                  stevek4 Level 1

                  the first image is what happens when using Lightroom, the second one is without lightroom

                  • 6. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                    ManiacJoe Adobe Community Professional

                    Assuming these are the exported images from LR, what processing did you do prior to exporting them?

                    What do the original files look like?

                     

                    Using Dropbox.com or the like, link us to an unedited original file so that we can see what you are seeing.

                    • 7. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                      Coloretric Creative

                      These have different noise reduction algorithms applied to them.

                      • 8. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                        stevek4 Level 1

                        Those were screen shots so you would see what the viewer was showing and in the program they were edited in.  Lightroom is degrading the image quality, especially at and above ISO 12,800 and above with the D500, yet these were lower ISO, 2200 & 3200

                        • 9. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                          cppasm Level 3

                          Lightroom does not degrade anything.

                          Learn how to use it.

                          Talking about your images: too much Sharpening, too few Noise Reduction.

                          Especially the latter.

                          • 10. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                            stevek4 Level 1

                            Right, are you sure?  Here are the NEF files saved down to JPG.  The NEF files are 44mb and won't transferDHD1611055655 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpgDHD1611055656 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpg

                             

                            DHD1611055654 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpg

                            • 11. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                              stevek4 Level 1

                              these were saved using Photo Mechanic 5, not lightroom

                              • 12. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                stevek4 Level 1

                                Joe,

                                I added the jpg files to this thread.  The NEF files are 44mb and cannot be sent, so I used Photo Mechanic 5 to open them, then save down to jpg.  Those jpgs were opened in LR CC, then applied auto tone, then saved as jpg quality 95%, 3216px long side.

                                • 13. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                  stevek4 Level 1

                                  Thank you for replying and asking for information.  This is a real issue.  ccpasm was very rude in their response, so I will assume they do not work for Adobe or anyone else.

                                  • 14. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                    stevek4 Level 1

                                    Here are the three images, NEF brought into PS CC, apply auto tone, open image, save as jpg, quality 11.  You can see in the first two, QB and RB on the bench shots that LR CC is causing more noise than PS CC.SK PS DHD1611055655 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpgSK PS DHD1611055656 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpgSK PS DHD1611055654 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpg.

                                    • 15. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                      stevek4 Level 1

                                      here are the lightroom edited pictures.SK LRCC DHD1611055654 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpgSK LRCC DHD1611055655 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpgSK LRCC DHD1611055656 - NOV 19 Miami at NC State.jpg

                                      • 16. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                        stevek4 Level 1

                                        Here is a link to the DropBox folder containing all the JPG images

                                         

                                        Dropbox - Lightroom noise images

                                         

                                        I named them ORIGINAL, for the original

                                        SK LRCC for processed in LR CC, using only auto tone

                                        SK PS for processed in PS CC, using auto tone

                                        • 17. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                          cppasm Level 3

                                          I didn't mean to be rude. If I was - sorry.

                                          And almost noone here works for Adobe - it's a user to user forum.

                                          Your posted images is not helpful for number of reasons.

                                          Saving to JPEG using Photo Mechanic just uses JPEG embedded into NEF by camera and it IS processed by camera, including noise reduction.

                                          JPEG from PS was NOT derived directly from NEF, it was converted from NEF to TIFF, then to PSD and then to JPEG (according to metadata).

                                          Who knows what settings were applied along that process.

                                          To get some help you will need to provide NEF file, XMP from Camera RAW and XMP (or catalog, you can export this one image as catalog) from Lightroom.

                                          Lightroom uses same engine as Photoshop (Camera RAW) for convertion and I can bet results will be identical.

                                          • 18. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                            ManiacJoe Adobe Community Professional

                                            The inclusion of all the JPG files is a good attempt to show what is going on, but we really need to see the NEF files.

                                             

                                            Keep in mind that many image viewers will show the preview JPG when handling raw files. The preview JPG gets lots of processing done to it based on the user's chosen Picture Control settings and noise reduction settings. Most raw viewers will do none of that.

                                             

                                            The reality is that this is probably a simple problem of poor processing by the user using Lightroom.

                                            • 19. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                              stevek4 Level 1

                                              Yes thanks, I understand the processing "process" from program to program, so the NEF files are up on the dropbox folder now.

                                               

                                              cppasm - your comment did come off as quite rude, that's why I mentioned it.  No worries.

                                               

                                              If anyone can look at the NEF, then you process it whatever way you want to do it, with PS CC and LR CC, you can see the same thing I'm seeing, and my wire service editor is seeing, all you have to do is to use either one of these programs to just open the NEF, then save to JPG, and you can see the quality & noise difference.   This tells me there is a problem with the current ACR, because using either a D4S, D4, D3S, D3, etc., you don't see this degradation at all.

                                               

                                              Thanks for your help. 

                                              • 20. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                ManiacJoe Adobe Community Professional

                                                I took a look at the NEF files.

                                                If you look at the embedded preview JPGs, things look pretty good. Note that these JPGs will have all the camera's Picture Control settings baked in, including any noise reduction. I am not seeing any noise to complain about here.

                                                 

                                                When you import the NEFs into Lightroom, do nothing, export them back out as JPG files, what you are seeing is the "adobe standard" profile applied to your raw file. I can honestly say I have never used that profile because I have always preferred a different profile. Looking at those results, more detail is being brought out. I am not sure I would call it a noisy image, but it certainly seems more sharpening and more clarity has been applied. This is not necessarily a good thing, especially on the "portrait" of the player in red.

                                                 

                                                If I create my own LR preset for this set, I can get much better results than either the embedded JPG or the "adobe standard" profile.

                                                • 21. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                  cppasm Level 3

                                                  stevek4, by the way you are definitely doing something wrong.

                                                  You mentioned that you get same results from Lightroom 5, but Nikon D500 is not supported by Lightroom 5.7.1 (the latest LR5) and you can not import this NEFs at all.

                                                   

                                                  Here you can find JPEGs converted from your NEF by Photoshop CC 2014 (ACR 9.7) and Lightroom CC 2015.7

                                                  Zippyshare.com

                                                  I don't see any difference between them.

                                                  And by the way Noise Reduction is not applied at all (at default settings), but should be if you want to get smoother image.

                                                  • 22. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                    Coloretric Creative Level 1

                                                    I would say that the blacks (more specifically) the black point is being lifted by about a stop. Hence the "noise".

                                                    • 23. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                      trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      stevek4 wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Using Lightroom 5 or Lightroom CC I am getting poor quality exported pictures from the Nikon D500, when other cameras, D800E, D3S, D3, export with good quality. I am using the same export settings for any camera, JPEG, 300dpi, quality 90%, long edge 3216, sRGB. The images from D800E, D3S, D3, appear as expected, while those with D500 (Lightroom 5 or CC and ACR 9.7) have a degraded quality that looks compressed with additional noise.

                                                       

                                                      This appears to be a LR issue, not with the camera, because processing with Photoshop 6 or Photoshop CC works just fine.

                                                      I downloaded your D500 NEF files and get the exact same image quality rendering using LR CC 2015.7 and ACR 9.7. The only way you can be seeing a difference using PS is if one or more of the ACR settings is not the same as LR's settings. I think you have a couple of issues going on here, but let's talk about what you are actually seeing as "degraded quality:" Lower Color Saturation, Lower Black Point Contrast

                                                       

                                                      I made a discovery recently concerning changes Adobe has made to the Adobe Standard profile starting with all new camera models introduced around 2104 Q3. The cameras you are using (D800E, D3S, D3) were all introduced before 2104 Q3 except for the D500 model (2016 Q1).  Please read the replies starting at the below link and onward to the last reply for more details. It discusses Canon EOS cameras, but applies to ALL camera models:

                                                       

                                                      Re: Canon 1dx II Color Issues with LR 6.7  HELP

                                                       

                                                      THE ISSUE

                                                      The new version Adobe Standard camera profiles have lower color saturation and lower contrast around the Black Point (Shadow) Tone Curve area. Here's a test image shot with the Nikon D800e and D500 using the Adobe Standard camera profile. These differences make it difficult to achieve the same rendering as older model cameras from the same manufacturer. Using a different camera profile such as Camera Standard or Neutral will work, but it's not going to look like the "original" Adobe Standard profile rendering.

                                                       

                                                      So what do you do? The first thought that comes to mind is scream "bloody murder" to Adobe about this "unannounced" change. What has surprised is how few people have complained about this here in the LR and PS forums. Pros like wedding and commercial photographers that need ALL cameras to produce very similar rendering should be screaming "bloody murder," but very few are.....so far. I've held-off posting a Problem Report in the Photoshop Family forum fearing it will simply fall on deaf ears.

                                                       

                                                      SUGGESTED SOLUTION

                                                      So what can you do for now? I've found that adding Basic panel Saturation = +15 and Tone Curve Shadows = -10 will make the new Adobe Standard profile (i.e. 500D) look near identical to the older models. No, it's not the best solution, but give it a try.

                                                       

                                                      (click on image to see full-size)

                                                      Nikon D800e vs D500 Adobe Standrad Profile.jpg

                                                      • 24. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                        stevek4 Level 1

                                                        that would make total sense, that the standard profile has changed.  I haven't seen issues with the older cameras, just the D500, and others have seen it too with the D5.

                                                         

                                                        While I agree that screaming "bloody murder" is one way to go to Adobe with this, the other would be to get in touch with the correct contacts there and have them acknowledge this, and to also make recommended setting changes public (while I would like the profile to take this into account with these higher ISO capable cameras so it is again automated and no differences are seen or experienced).  This profile change, without user knowledge, is a problem and has caused us a lot of issues and gnashing of teeth about how to fix it.

                                                         

                                                        I will try this now to see what I can tell with my images.  My basic processing is to only touch up exposure and shadows, possibly add some noise reduction when approaching  ISO10,000 or more.

                                                         

                                                        While adding these two steps is not perfect, at least it could help.

                                                        • 25. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                          Abambo Level 4

                                                          Photoshop and Lightroom (at the same version level) share the same raw file development engine. There can be no differences except if the parameters are different.

                                                          • 26. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                            stevek4 Level 1

                                                            Abambo, please read the above reasoning that the profile has changed from previous versions

                                                            • 27. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                              cppasm Level 3

                                                              So what? It is changed in both Lightroom and ACR, and they are still rendering exactly the same images.

                                                              The problem would be if you will try to match look from different cameras, but this does not seems to be your task (at least not clear from your messages).

                                                              • 28. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                In my reply #23 I mentioned, "I think you have a couple of issues going on here."

                                                                 

                                                                1)The first issue is that Adobe has changed the Adobe Standard profile to a new version (around Q3 2014) with lower color saturation and lower contrast around the tone curve's Shadows region (i.e. Black Point Compensation). This makes noise more visible in high ISO shots and colors look less saturated (Red especially). Images shot with the new Nikon D500 and D5 will look look slightly flat and noisier when compared to older camera images, especially the D3 models. We're not talking a huge difference, but enough to be a PITA getting images from older and newer camera models to look the same!

                                                                 

                                                                2) I investigated the differences observed in posted image (21 on bench) in replies # 14 and 15 using the same version of LR and ACR. I used an EXIF reader to check the applied LR and ACR settings and a 'Medium Contrast' Tone Curve is being applied inside ACR and the default 'Linear' Tone Curve inside LR (see below screenshot). Obviously the images are going to look different! Ironically applying a 'Medium Contrast' Tone Curve is very close to the -10 Shadows Tone Curve I recommended to "fix" the issue. You do also need to increase the color Saturation to about +15 to fully correct the new Adobe Standard profile. The exact setting values required will vary slightly with different camera makes and models. You may also need to create "new versions" of any Develop presets you've created for older camera models. This means you'll need two sets of Develop presets AND you'll need to know, which camera models need the new presets and what models need the older presets. Are you getting the picture (pun intended)?

                                                                 

                                                                I think that addresses all of the issues presented here. People with both older and newer (2014 Q3 and later) model cameras who are experiencing this issue need to make their feelings known here in the forum. I suspect that many non-professionals may not even notice the change, but professionals and serious photographers certainly will. So how does everyone feel about the changes Adobe has made to the "Gold Standard" Adobe Standard camera profile?

                                                                SK+LRvsPS+DHD1611055656+-+NOV+19+Miami+at+NC+State.jpg

                                                                • 29. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                  Abambo Level 4

                                                                  Please read all of my reasoning:

                                                                  Photoshop and Lightroom (at the same version level) share the same raw file development engine.

                                                                  Your initial statement says that "Photoshop 6 or Photoshop CC works just fine."

                                                                   

                                                                  I doubt this, not the fact that different versions of LR/ACR produce different results. I use to see those differences, when I open an older picture for modified processing. I can update to the new processing, but very often, I need to make more changes then expected, as parameters that where nicely adapted need to be changed now.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                    stevek4 Level 1

                                                                    Thank you for the opportunity to say, out loud, THESE CHANGES ARE SIMPLY HORRIBLE AND UNCALLED FOR!!  This is a vendor that doesn't care about the usability and difficulty that they just put on photographers, especially professionals.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                      stevek4 Level 1

                                                                      Now having said that, if there were a way that I, or any of us, could change the standard profile to set a "personal" default that would override that default tone curve, without having to do those two changes on Saturation +15 and Shadows -10, to take us back to where we were before I would love to know how to do it.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                        Thank you for the opportunity to say, out loud, THESE CHANGES ARE SIMPLY HORRIBLE AND UNCALLED FOR!! This is a vendor that doesn't care about the usability and difficulty that they just put on photographers, especially professionals.

                                                                        One of the most important tips I give people that just want to get their images out and not fuss too much is to set the default profile for your camera to "Camera Standard" in Lightroom. You do this by taking in a raw file, resetting the Develop settings, go to the camera calibration section in Develop and changing the profile in the popup. Then hit alt/option and the reset button will change to "Set Default...". Hit that and change the default. All newly imported raw files will default to the camera default profile and you will not see big color shifts anymore from the initial preview. This will make the raw render the same as if you shot jpeg using default settings in your camera. Adobe messes around a bit too much with the "adobe default" profiles for my taste between camera versions.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                          Jao vdL wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          Adobe messes around a bit too much with the "adobe default" profiles for my taste between camera versions.

                                                                          Jao, I assume you mean the Adobe Standard camera profiles. Please read my reply #23 in this post. It appears Adobe has changed the "standard" for Adobe Standard camera profiles starting about 2014 Q3 for all new camera models. This means if you shoot with both old and post 2014 Q3 new model cameras AND used the Adobe Standard profile you're going to need to change your editing workflow and probably add duplicate Develop presets for the newer camera models. Adobe Standard was supposed to provide the same rendering regardless of make or model camera. If you're running a commercial or wedding photography business and use camera equipment from more than one manufacturer (i.e. Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, etc.) the Camera Standard profile probably won't work well. Each camera manufacturer has their own idea of what 'Standard' rendering should looks like and they are all slightly different.

                                                                           

                                                                          Even when using a ColorChecker to create calibrated "custom profiles" a 'Base Profile' must be selected, which is used to create the new "custom" profile. Most people choose Adobe Standard since it is the most uniform across camera makes and models and the best starting point. That's exactly what I'm doing now with each of my cameras. Unfortunately even when using a ColorChecker with the "new" Adobe Standard as the Base profile there are differences in the "custom" profile (i.e. lower color saturation and black point contrast). One solution is to use the Adobe DNG Profile Editor (DPE) to correct the tone curve and color saturation changes in the new Adobe Standard profile.

                                                                           

                                                                          I've done that for the Nikon D500 camera model that

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                          Windows—C: \ Users \ [your username] \ AppData \ Roaming \ Adobe \ CameraRaw \ CameraProfiles \

                                                                          Mac—Macintosh HD / Users / [your username] / Library / Application Support / Adobe / CameraRaw / CameraProfiles /

                                                                           

                                                                          Yes,-30 is actually increasing the color saturation in DPE.

                                                                          Tone Curve Points: 0 0, 32 27, 64 60, 128 128, 192 196, 224 228, 255 255

                                                                          • 34. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                            stevek4 Level 1

                                                                            I'm assuming that this change will apply to editing JPG in LR CC, since that's what I shoot for sports events with the D500.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                              DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

                                                                              When you shoot JPG the White Balance, Profile and in camera settings are "Baked" into the rendered jpeg file. LR by default will make no changes and will display the file as rendered by the Camera Firmware. i.e. you are no longer have the Raw data to work with.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                As mentioned if shooting in-camera JPEG file format the camera's settings determine everything. LR merely imports that JPEG and displays it with no additional processing by default (all controls at 0). When shooting raw file format a camera profile is selected inside LR that applies a specific amount of color saturation and contrast tone curve. Sharpening and noise reduction settings are also applied inside LR based on LR's "default" settings.

                                                                                 

                                                                                If your issue is that the D500 in-camera shot JPEG files are exporting bad quality images (not using raw files anywhere in the process) then we need to start all over!

                                                                                • 37. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                                  stevek4 Level 1

                                                                                  yeah actually I am, and others are, getting bad results with JPG files too.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                    yeah actually I am, and others are, getting bad results with JPG files too.

                                                                                    What? That is basically impossible. Are you using any develop settings in Lightroom? They should all be at zero especially the detail settings. What are you using for export settings?

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Lightroom exports bad quality Nikon D500 images
                                                                                      stevek4 Level 1

                                                                                      well yeah.  I imported and used Photoshop CC to crop and resize photos sent to the service2581611240010_Vikings_at_Lions.jpg2581611240172_Vikings_at_Lions.jpg from yesterday's Thanksgiving Day game in Detroit, nothing else done with the picture.  That one is uploaded here first.  Then I used the settings recommended by trshaner to use in Lightroom CC, by setting just Saturation +15 and Shadows -10, and that shot is second.

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