9 Replies Latest reply on Nov 24, 2016 3:02 PM by Roei Tzoref

    Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?

    jroguex

      This one has bugged me for years. It makes cross fades/dissolves unusable imho. If you overlay tints, their combined values are way off what they should be. Example: overlay (on normal transparency) two 50% blue boxes and the overlap will not give you 100% Why is this?? And is there a way to fix?

       

      Screen Shot 2016-11-22 at 16.55.36.png

        • 1. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
          Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

          two 50% blue boxes and the overlap will not give you 100% Why is this?

          Opacity does not add up but multiplies. that actually imitates how world physics works when light passes trough a translucent object. say you are making a slideshow with a projector and putting a slide that is about 50% transparent and then you place another 50% slide on top of the first slide - would you expect them to add up to 100%?

           

          when it comes to opacity, 50%+50% is not 100%. it is 75%.

           

          here's how:

          1st layer has opacity of 50%

          2nd layer has opacity of 50%. this opacity percentage is of the remaining 50% so it's really 25%

          so 50+25%= 75%

           

          It makes cross fades/dissolves unusable imho.

          that's why you don't cross dissolve in Ae but only fade the top layer. if these are 2 or more layers that are overlapping and you want them to dissolve together - you can precomp them and dissolve that precomp.

          • 2. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
            jroguex Level 1

            Unfortunately, if you only fade the top layer you will see a hard end of the layer below.

            I think this is something that is very commonly used/needed and needs to be addressed. Also, as an animator when I put 2 50% tints overlapping, I want to see 100%. Just makes sense. Making 75% is not useful at all because no matter how many tints you put on top, you'll never reach 100.

             

            I've used AE since 1997 and have always had to do my dissolves in another program and bring back in. Pretty poor work-around really. The only (major) bugbear I have for an otherwise brilliant piece of software.

            • 3. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
              Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional
              Making 75% is not useful at all because no matter how many tints you put on top, you'll never reach 100.

              that's right this is how opacity works in the software and in physics.

              I think this is something that is very commonly used/needed and needs to be addressed.

              this is the way every software works with opacity: photoshop, illustrator, probably every software there is. this is how light works in the real world. I don't expect it to change.

              Also, as an animator when I put 2 50% tints overlapping, I want to see 100%. Just makes sense.

              instead using the opacity, why not actually tint your layers accordingly. if you want light blue, don't reduce the transparency but use a light blue color.

              Unfortunately, if you only fade the top layer you will see a hard end of the layer below.

              in this case, have you tried using the blend effect in Ae? https://helpx.adobe.com/after-effects/using/channel-effects.html#blend_effect - it simulates a cross-fade and won't have that annoying transparent-in-the-middle-of-the-transition. and the layer below will dissolve like you are used to in your NLE.

              • 4. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
                Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                Just makes sense.

                Not really. You're in the minority here or else it would have long been changed. Of course it would be possible, but it would in fact make working even more unpredictable - that is in scenarios where you don't want 100% opacity. You'd fiddle forever getting predictable transparency effects. On top of that one could go on forever about things like Gamma vs. linear blending and how it affects perception of these things, but there seems little point to it. Even your cross-fade example doesn't exactly make sense. That's what the channel effects like Blend are for or respective matte-based fades, if for whatever reason you want your linear fade. And of course ever since CS3 or so trhere's Alpha Add belnding mode, which does take care of this just as well.

                 

                Mylenium

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                • 5. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
                  Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional
                  so there's Alpha Add blending mode, which does take care of this just as well.

                  Nice addition thanks M

                  • 6. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
                    jroguex Level 1

                    Mylenium , if you used blend modes that doesn't help with a cross dissolve either. Here's an example of the problem:

                    I have 3 layers:

                    Base layer is a figure on a background with no head.

                    Layer one has the head looking left.

                    Layer 2 has the head looking right.

                    BUT - a cross fade between layers 1 and 2 would would become transparent to 75% during the fade and reveal the base layer below - which would look plain wrong.  How would that be helpful?!

                    Now, I could just do that in PP or FCP but that becomes a lengthy workaround (plus I want to use other AE effects like puppet, etc)

                    A cross dissolve doesn't do this in PP, it adds the value. Why not in AE or at least the option to check it on? Alphas Add worked until you put another tint or sold beneath and then you lose it. Unhelpful.

                    • 7. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
                      jroguex Level 1

                      I'd be interested to hear how either of you would solve this without having to do a workaround...

                      • 8. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
                        Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                        Channel effects? I mean I see nothing in your description that would necissitate anything else but a few instances of e.g. a Blend effect on the same layer, referencing multiple layers and some of them linked with the most basic pickwhip expressions to provide extra "coverage" where necessary. There's really no issue here. You simply need to keep transparency and color/ channel operations separate, which IMO is the real crooked thing about your approach and why you run into those issues.

                         

                        Mylenium

                        • 9. Re: Two 50% tints overlaying do not make 100%. WHY?
                          Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                          let's try this:

                          I have made a setup of base layer, face1, face2. they are overlapping and I think this is how you meant to illustrate your issue.

                          I want a cross dissolve between Face1-Green and Face2-Blue over the Base Layer-Red

                           

                          the way I see it 2 workflows come to mind:

                          Workflow #1 - Alpha Add and precomps

                          1. precomp the faces. this will be my head layer. in the precomp I will cross dissolve the 2 and set the 1st layer to be in Alpha Add mode.

                          1.gif

                          now the Head precomp in the master comp won't reveal the red layer because it has been rasterized.

                          2.gif

                           

                          Workflow #2 - Blend Effect

                          1. uncheck the visibility of face1-Green

                          2. add the blend effect to face-2 blue and select face1- as "blend with layer" and set keyframes from 0 to 100

                          3.gif

                           

                          if you feel there should be a feature to make your work easier, then by all means submit a feature request and you could make Ae better for all of us: Feature Request/Bug Report Form

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