24 Replies Latest reply on Dec 23, 2016 10:26 AM by trshaner

    Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW

    whiteheat74 Level 1

      Hi. Just bought a Canon 80D. When importing RAW files into Lightroom CC I'm finding the default colour noise reduction setting (25%) is losing massive amounts of colour information, turning obvious red and yellow details grey. I've never encountered this with any other Canon camera in Lightroom. Has anyone else experienced this? Dialing noise reduction down to 10% produces acceptable results, but with noise reduction at 0% I'm seeing some very unpleasant effects. Is this a problem with Adobe's RAW converter for the 80D in particular?

        • 1. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
          99jon Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Are the photos shot at 100 ISO or are you using much higher ISO’s?

          • 2. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
            whiteheat74 Level 1

            Most ISO 1600 which should be perfectly acceptable with the 80D from test results I've seen. As I say I've never noticed this problem with other Canon cameras at similar ISO.

            • 3. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
              99jon Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              I have a Canon 5D and have not found a problem with the standard settings but I do have my own NR presets as a starting point (1) I apply for shots at 100 to 1000 ISO (2) applied to much higher ISOs with sharpening and masking. I then tweak from the starting point.

               

              I would suggest editing a photo to your liking and saving the settings. Then apply to a batch with similar ISOs.

              • 4. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                whiteheat74 Level 1

                Thanks. Yes, it just seems odd that Adobe would deliberately apply such aggressive colour noise reduction by default. It fundamentally misrepresents the true colours captured by the 80D.

                 

                Here's one example cropped at 100%. Long range with small subject, but illustrates the problem I think:

                 

                lightroom-color-noise-01.jpg

                 

                The red border round the eye is characteristic of this species.

                • 5. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                  ManiacJoe Adobe Community Professional

                  What is the camera profile you have selected in the Camera Calibration panel?

                   

                  Using Dropbox.com or Google Drive or the like, can you link us to an example raw file or two so that we can see what you are seeing?

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                    whiteheat74 Level 1

                    Ah, I've never noticed that before! Switching from 'Adobe Standard' to 'Camera Faithful' makes a big difference. Why the contrast do you know?

                    • 7. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                      ManiacJoe Adobe Community Professional

                      Your camera has at least three profiles built into it. Canon is not going to share those details, so all other software makers try to mimic those profiles plus add a few profiles of their own.

                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 8. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                        whiteheat74 Level 1

                        OK, thanks very much. I thought that Lightroom automatically applied an accurate camera RAW profile on import, but obviously not in this case. I never had any problems with the 600D previously, so I was surprised.

                        • 9. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          whiteheat74 wrote:

                           

                          Ah, I've never noticed that before! Switching from 'Adobe Standard' to 'Camera Faithful' makes a big difference. Why the contrast do you know?

                          Adobe has (without acknowledgment) changed the Adobe Standard profile sometime in Q3 2014. All new camera models introduced since Q3 2014 (including the 80D) have Adobe Standard profiles that are slightly lower in color saturation and contrast in the black point region. If you also use older model Canon DSLRs such as the 600D you'll see a difference. The 'Camera' named profiles have not changed and should look very close to the older model 600D 'Camera' profiles.

                           

                          Re: Canon 1dx II Color Issues with LR 6.7  HELP

                           

                          I noticed years ago that the Color Noise Reduction '25' default setting reduced color saturation in some images. I have all my Canon DSLRs LR "defaults" set for 15 Color Noise Reduction, which works well. BTW-The Noise Reduction controls are ISO aware and increase the amount of reduction as ISO speed increases. A '15' Color or Luminance setting at ISO 100 is closer to 50 at the same 15 setting with an ISO 1600 image file.

                           

                          To change your "Default Develop Settings" select an 80D raw file and click on the master 'Reset' button at the bottom of the Develop settings panel. This will return all of the controls to their default settings. Next change NR> Color from 25 to 15, hold down the ALT key, and click on the master 'Reset' button. In the popup click on 'Update to Current Settings.'

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                            whiteheat74 Level 1

                            That would certainly explain a few things - thanks. But it's not just that it reduces colour saturation - in some cases it seems to eliminate colour entirely. I didn't know about the ISO sensitivity.

                            • 11. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Export a CR2 file with this issue to DNG file format and upload to Dropbox and I'll take a look at it. The DNG file will have all of your LR settings, which will help.

                              • 12. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                whiteheat74 Level 1

                                Thanks for the offer, but the step outlined above solves my particular issue. I'm sure the Adobe team have no shortage of Canon RAW files to play with should they wish to investigate this issue further.

                                • 13. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  whiteheat74 wrote:

                                   

                                  That would certainly explain a few things - thanks. But it's not just that it reduces colour saturation - in some cases it seems to eliminate colour entirely. I didn't know about the ISO sensitivity.

                                  I can't reproduce what you're seeing, which is why I asked for a DNG Export file with your settings applied that shows the issue.

                                   

                                  With high ISO images using Color NR 25 setting I can see a slight reduction in color saturation, but none lose color entirely in any part of the image. You may be inadvertently applying other settings to the image that are affecting color saturation, such as HSL, Defringe, or Local controls.

                                  • 14. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                    whiteheat74 Level 1

                                    See photo above. It selectively eliminates red around the eye. All settings are set to default. Color: As Shot. No Lens Corrections.

                                    • 15. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      The orange ring around the bird's eye is about as narrow as the blotchy areas of noise at that ISO so I don't think LR can distinguish between the two. That is how color NR works, it smears the small color variations to remove the color noise blotches.  There are sliders in the color NR area to help LR out.  It's possible that changing the color profile made the colors slightly more intense so LR left the ring area alone because the variation was above some threshold.

                                      • 16. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Yep, and it removes most of the color in the branches. There may be a logical explanation as to why this happening, but I can't reproduce it with any file using Color settings in the 0 to 25 range. Without a DNG Export file that exhibits the issue it's not likely to be "fixed."

                                        • 17. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                          whiteheat74 Level 1

                                          I have never seen that level of badly targeted color noise reduction at default settings in Lightroom before, but then CC is relatively new to me. ISO 1600 is not extreme for this sensor, although I might have hoped for a cleaner result with a faster lens.

                                           

                                          If Adobe really can't reproduce this effect with any other 80D RAW files I will attempt to export a DNG. Or I could just supply the original RAW?

                                          • 18. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            whiteheat74 wrote:

                                             

                                            If Adobe really can't reproduce this effect with any other 80D RAW files I will attempt to export a DNG. Or I could just supply the original RAW?

                                            Make adjustments to the raw image file as you normally would so that the issue is apparent (i.e. Color NRin 15-25 range). Then Export to DNG file format and upload it to Dropbox or other site and place the share link in a reply here.

                                            • 19. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                              whiteheat74 Level 1

                                              Here's a link to the RAW:

                                               

                                              https://1drv.ms/u/s!Al9z0gw-2MifgWeet4gOF2oQvlT0

                                               

                                              No adjustments used as I said. Default Lightroom settings for everything. If you still can't replicate it please let me know.

                                              • 20. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                OK, I can confirm what you are seeing with the Canon 80D Adobe Standard camera profile. With a default 25 Color NR setting there is very noticeable color desaturation. I also tested all of the 'Camera' named profiles (Camera Standard, Camera Faithful, etc.) and there is absolutely no color desaturation at the same 25 Color NR setting. So the issue is with the Adobe Standard profile. This brings up the question concerning changes Adobe made to the Adobe Standard profiles for all camera released since 2014 Q3 as detailed here: Re: Canon 1dx II Color Issues with LR 6.7  HELP

                                                 

                                                So do they all behave the same way, which would be a major issue? I'll have to go back and try and confirm if the Canon 80D's behavior is an isolated case, or the result of a "global change" Adobe made in 2014 Q3 to the Adobe Standard profile.

                                                • 21. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                                  whiteheat74 Level 1

                                                  Glad to have been of assistance. ;-)

                                                   

                                                  Hope you find a fix.

                                                  • 22. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    I checked a number of newer and older model Canon camera raw image files for this anomaly at ISO 1600. I did see some color desaturation at the 25 Color Noise Reduction setting in some of the image files, but it was much less severe (including the similar 600D). I suggest posting this in the Photoshop Family forum as a 'Problem.' It would be helpful if you can upload a shot of the same scene, with similar lens focal length, aperture, and ISO 1600 setting from both your 600D and 80D cameras. Keep in mind that a part of the issue is due to changes Adobe made to the Adobe Standard profile that lowers color saturation and contrast around the black point region. This is also an issue and shooting the same scene with the 600D and 80D cameras should reveal both issues.

                                                     

                                                    Photoshop Family Customer Community

                                                    • 23. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                                      whiteheat74 Level 1

                                                      Sorry, but I don't think I'm going to have time for that. The problem may be related to the new 24MP APS-C sensor Canon launched with the 80D perhaps? The noise profile is now quite different I believe.

                                                      • 24. Re: Canon 80D colour noise reduction from RAW
                                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        The 80D exhibits lower color noise than the 600D (T3i) at the same ISO settings. But it looks like the 80D Adobe Standard profile uses an ISO Noise Reduction compensation curve that is more aggressive than the 600D. As I mentioned the 'Camera' profiles don't have this issue and are using a "less aggressive" ISO Noise Reduction compensation curve. So it shouldn't be difficult for Adobe to apply the same curve to the Adobe Standard profile. If you can find and upload two image files (80D and 600D) of the same subject and ISO setting that exhibit the issue I'll post the problem report at the Photoshop family forum. There's no rush.......do it at your convenience when you can.