34 Replies Latest reply on Jan 20, 2017 7:38 AM by Bill Gehrke

    Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks

    Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

      How about this from two Samsung 960 Pro M.2 in RAID 0:

      960 Pro M.2 RAID0.png

      But I will have to say that exporting from Premiere with the PPBM disk intensive Disk I/O timeline cannot take advantage of this sequential write speed.  Our Premiere Pro benchmark stops improving at ~2000 MB/second so this configuration would not be practical usage.

       

      I just could not resist showing these astronomical transfer rates

        • 1. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
          mikeklar Level 1

          Interesting, thanks for posting.

           

          Cheers

          Michael

          • 2. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
            MyerPj Level 2

            Hi Bill,

             

            I've been following your posts, very informative, thanks!

             

            I'll be doing a new build in Feb or March, and was planning on doing an Samsung 512gb 850 (pro or evo) boot, programs and then a 512gb 960 pro m2 drive for media. Was just wondering though, since I have to buy both new drives... can / should I go with two 960's using one for boot and the other for media, etc? The cost would only be the difference from an 850 to a similar 960.

             

            (I'm planning on using an Asus x99 Deluxe 2 with a 6850 processor and Asus 1060 video)

             

            Any tips would be much appreciated...

             

            mp

            • 3. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
              Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Well you forced me to look at the 950 Pro 512 GB  versus the 960 Pro 512 GB  and there is only $2.00 difference between these two on Newegg today.  Of course for the boot drive you really do not need 512 GB, 256 GB is more than enough.  Here there is a $50 difference for the M.2 plus for the second M.2 device you need a PCIe adapter card.

               

              Since I have two 960 Pro's I guess it makes sense for me to go to my desktop and run my PPBM with two of those.  I will not be able to do it tonight but will try for tomorrow and see if there is any difference over my running off a SATA III boot device.  My gut feeling right now is there no significant difference.  I will have to break that RAID configuration that I now have and reload a boot configuration on one drive.

              • 4. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                MyerPj Level 2

                Yes, thanks Bill, that would be awesome.

                 

                I thought there was an Asus expansion card that comes with the x99 Deluxe 2. Is that option for another m2 drive or something else? I thought I saw a picture of your computer with the two m2 drive and the one is in an Asus card.

                 

                Yes, using a 256mb m2 for os and programs. I would think the computer would boot much faster and load programs much faster and then why not - if the cost is not that much different than having to purchase a 256mb SSD like the 850 pro and using that for os/progams?

                • 5. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                  Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  MyerPj wrote:

                   

                  I thought there was an Asus expansion card that comes with the x99 Deluxe 2. Is that option for another m2 drive or something else? I thought I saw a picture of your computer with the two m2 drive and the one is in an Asus card.

                   

                  That is true but with my x99-E WS, I had to buy my adapters (I have several other adapters that work well).

                   

                  Data coming on the comparison.

                  • 6. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                    MyerPj Level 2

                    BTW Bill, where are you getting the 960's? I've been watching for some time at B&H Photo, and the website consistently says 2-4 weeks?

                    • 7. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                      Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Interesting my first 960 Pro 512GB came directly from Samsung but I had several orders placed which I canceled when I got the first notification of shipment.  Later I ordered the 960 Pro 1 TB from Newegg and was lucky to get one of their early shipments.

                       

                      As you can see using a 512 GB and a 1 TB unit in RAID 0 is not a practical use but while I wasted 512 GB it did allow me to gather some exotic data.just imagine reading sequential data at >5 TB/second

                      • 8. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                        DanHidalz

                        How do you think is it best to set up the drives for Premiere in terms of storage with this specific RAID?

                         

                        Just a raid and all media cache, previews, media, projects, backups and exports all together or would it be better to split it and arrange it in a different way?

                         

                        Why do you think it is not getting benefits from over 2TB/s? Could it be a bottleneck anywhere or could it be related with the benchmark itself?

                         

                        Apart from that, can I ask you how much that system scored in ppbm?

                        • 9. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                          Mike 1 Irish Level 1

                          The ASUS Deluxe X99II comes with a riser card as standard. I have this board and the i7-6850K clocked at 4.2. I am waiting on the Samsung 960 Pro to arrive so I can change out the intel 600P 1Tb I currently have as my C drive. I also have a Samsung 950 Pro 256Gb M.2 as my scratch drive on the supplied riser card.

                          Regards.

                          mike.

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                            Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            I will get back here later today with answers to your questions

                            1 person found this helpful
                            • 11. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                              Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              danielh19294473 wrote:

                               

                              1.  How do you think is it best to set up the drives for Premiere in terms of storage with this specific RAID?

                               

                              2.  Just a raid and all media cache, previews, media, projects, backups and exports all together or would it be better to split it and arrange it in a different way?

                               

                              3.  Why do you think it is not getting benefits from over 2TB/s? Could it be a bottleneck anywhere or could it be related with the benchmark itself?

                               

                              4.  Apart from that, can I ask you how much that system scored in ppbm?

                              1. I will not use this RAID as it shows me no advantage over a single device. My editing configuration (as opposed to my experimenting configurations) probably will be a single SATA III 6Gbit/s SSD and projects on the 1 TB m.2 Samsung 1TB  SSD.
                              2. No to RAID.  Unless somehow I get into more complex media (I do have a Sony FDR-AX100 that produces 4K 100 Mbits/second XAVC-S video that works perfectly) I will not consider anything else.  I have the default location for the "Media Cache" and "Media Cache Files" on the boot SSD and all else on the M.2 drive.
                              3. It is called the "Law of Diminishing Returns"  The bottleneck is now fast the CPU can hand the data to the storage device and may also somewhat Premiere limited.  We designed the disk intensive benchmark to test the hardware from within Premiere by using the must native to Premiere the AVI format.
                              4. Here is a work in progress that will show you more PPBM result than you want

                               

                              [Link Fixed by Mod]

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                Mike 1 Irish Level 1

                                Hi Bill. The link seem to be broken!

                                • 13. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                  Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  I cannot edit that post I even logged out and signed in again

                                   

                                  Here is the corrected link.

                                   

                                  Boot drive selection

                                  • 14. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                    MyerPj Level 2

                                    Hi Bill and Mike,

                                     

                                    Interesting thread here. Motivated by this I ordered two 960s, a 500gb EVO and 512gb Pro. Since both are to 'ship sometime soonish' I figured I'd keep the first one or even get both.

                                     

                                    Mike I am thinking of a rig similar to your basic one, (probably with no spinning drives) 6850 and Asus x99 Deluxe II with the Asus card. If I end up with both drives, I'll probably use the EVO for booting. I rarely go 3 years without refreshing my boot drive as Windows starts getting slugish, so I would replace that one at that time.

                                     

                                    Bill, have you ever booted with one of the 960s? then use one for your media files, etc? I planning to purchase two new SSDs for the new rig, and the price is not that much greater to make them both 960's instead of a boot SATA III. Then I can use one of my current 256k SATA III drives for quick backups, etc and an external eSATA spinning drive to get the files out of the main box.

                                     

                                    g

                                    • 15. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                      Mike 1 Irish Level 1

                                      Thank you for the new link Bill. It makes me sort off sorry now that I may have wasted money on the perceived upgrade to my C drive?

                                      Mike

                                      • 16. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                        Mike 1 Irish Level 1

                                        Hi G. The ASUS X99 Deluxe II is a very nice looking board and I like alot. I hid have a problem with a lengthy start up time that could last for a minute or more! I did a little digging and found that if you turn off the QUICK BOOT in Windows that this fixes the problem. I have the quick boot enabled and the time set to 0 in the BIOS SETUP. I think you will be happy with it.

                                        Best of look with your new PC.

                                        Regards.

                                        Mike.

                                        PS. Please come back and let up all know how you get on.

                                        • 17. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                          MyerPj Level 2

                                          I was thinking the boot up time would be one of the advantages of using the m2 drive for that, as well as loading programs, etc. I've continued with Win7 up to now, but was thinking of moving to Win10 for the next rig. I don't know of the Quick Boot from Win7, but just found this from a google search:

                                           

                                          http://lifehacker.com/enable-this-setting-to-make-windows-10-boot-up-faster-1743697169

                                           

                                          So, you're saying turn this off and turn on the quick boot in the BIOS, sounds good.

                                           

                                          Looking at the chart Bill just posted, I guess I could go from a single 1TB 960. Though, since I've had the smaller C: SSD I'm kind of used to having the data drive around now. And I like that I can just copy everything over to a new drive, or just swap out the c: drive and continue with the data drive as it is.

                                          • 18. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                            DanHidalz Level 1

                                            1. If you see no performance improvement over using a single drive, as you state in the link, why do you use an extra Sata III SSD for booting? I see you say something about missing frames in playback, does this happens a lot and its noticeable?

                                             

                                            2. About what you say when talking about complex media: How complex is the disk intensive bench? Could it be similar to, for example some of the most demanding codecs that Harm uploaded in a table in PPBM7.com?

                                             

                                            3. Got it!

                                             

                                            4. This may seem a stupid question, but... In the second point of your conclusions you say that "going with a single SSD doesn't have any performance penalty". I just want to clarify, you're talking about having a single PCIe Gen3 x4 (Samsung 950 or 960) not a Sata III (Samsung 840), don't you? I'm telling this because I'm looking apart from upgrading my desktop PC to buy a laptop because I'll be travelling a lot and I was specifically looking for laptops with PCIe storage.

                                             

                                            Thank you a lotBill Gehrke with your help! And congrats with the new PPBM8! It's nice to see the project will continue to be alive in some way.

                                             

                                            Bests!!!

                                            • 19. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                              Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                               

                                              Bill, have you ever booted with one of the 960s? then use one for your media files, etc? I planning to purchase two new SSDs for the new rig, and the price is not that much greater to make them both 960's instead of a boot SATA III. Then I can use one of my current 256k SATA III drives for quick backups, etc and an external eSATA spinning drive to get the files out of the main box.

                                               

                                              g

                                              That is what to link is for. it shows booting to a 960 Pro and also running everything off a single 960 Pro

                                              • 20. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                Mike 1 Irish Level 1

                                                Hi myerPj. I held out for about four to five months before i finally moved over to Windows 10. I just liked Windows 7 Pro so much, but I found that W 10 is much like W7 only faster. This was on my old 5/6 year old i7 PC. I made a copy of my C drive before I went for the free upgrade which I still have on a 450Gb SSD. I never went back to it?

                                                The only thing that I can say about the fast boot in W 10 is see how you get on with it as is and then try switching it off and see for yourself if there is any improvement in your PC's startup performance.

                                                Cheers.

                                                Mike

                                                • 21. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                  JFPhoton Level 3

                                                  Bill,

                                                  Thanks for the " boot drive selection"  link which shows the results of your testing. How things have changed in just a few years !!

                                                  Your tests reveal that using a new single Samsung 960 Pro NVMe PCI SSD for EVERYTHING causes NO performance penalty...at least that you know of...and it is no longer necessary to have separate drives to achieve best performance  with PPro !!  This is really amazing.....no separate " boot drive", no need for a " scratch disk",or, a separate drive to export to, etc.  Wow !

                                                   

                                                  No need for the expensive Areca add in cards and the hassle of maintaining expensive multi-hard drive RAID arrays !!!   All this improvement will allow more people to participate in a high quality video editing experience without the former prohibitive cost or frustration having to work on slower, less expensive equipment. The advances are so dramatic that even laptops are nearing the ability to compete with desktop systems !!! Currently, laptops can now have equal storage speed, system memory capacity, ( almost), and equal NVidia GPU power. Only the CPUs are restricted in laptops to 4 core i7s, but, the frequencies are going higher. Soon, even that may be overcome as somehow high clocked CPUs with more cores for laptops will be developed.

                                                   

                                                  Now, users will be able to focus more on creativity, instead of on confounding hardware issues which were a plague of the past as inadequate average machines chugged along slowly with their components serving as " space heaters" while editors drank endless cups of coffee waiting for their projects to slowly complete !!  A new "Renaissance" is just beginning !!

                                                  • 22. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                    MyerPj Level 2

                                                    Thanks Mike, Yes, will almost certainly go to w10 now, thanks for the confidence boost. I read up a bit on that, and it seems to do with "hibernate" I've got that off already in w7 (and have finally forced it off on my 88yo mother's computer cause she kept doing that). So, I can see your point, you've got the hardware to boot really fast, you don't need the artificial fast booting of Windows.

                                                     

                                                    Good tip, cheers!

                                                     

                                                    • 23. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                      DanHidalz Level 1

                                                      I've been following this development during the last 3 years and I'm equally amazed.

                                                       

                                                      This improvement has been so of a sudden that I haven't even had time to get used to the idea.

                                                       

                                                      WOW, is the only I can think of by now. Laptops reaching maybe 2 or 3 years old similar desktop performance is just something mindblowing.

                                                      • 24. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                        DanHidalz Level 1

                                                        I take advantage and ask this little additional question to Bill and all of you apart from what I posted before.

                                                         

                                                        5. I know that this kind of benchmarks are made to be as similar as real life performance as possible (being made inside PPro and all that stuff) but how much representative it actually is of real world performance?

                                                         

                                                        I would't be asking this stupid question if I wouldnt have found this: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Adobe-Premiere-Pro-CC-2015-4-Storage-Optimizati on-854

                                                         

                                                        As they analyze it seems to be little to no difference even when working with 4K. Is anything wrong with their procedures or is it just that we're benchmarking nearing a synthetic approach and its not as representative?

                                                         

                                                        Thank you a lot for your help guys!

                                                        • 25. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                          jasonvp Level 3

                                                          Frustration: I've had one of the 960 Pro 1TB drives on order since October of last year.  It finally shipped from Amazon on the second of January and arrived, safe and sound.  Or so I thought.  When I opened the Amazon box, I was greeted by an already-cut-open Samsung box.  The drive had been removed before the Samsung box was packaged up and sent to me.

                                                           

                                                          Basically I paid Amazon for a $630 cardboard box.  And this was Amazon's doing, too, not UPS'.  Naturally, they no longer have any drives to replace it and won't until, perhaps, Spring.

                                                           

                                                          Dammit!

                                                          • 26. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                            Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            Yesterday Newegg sent me a notice that they just received a shipment of those 960 1 TB SSD's

                                                            • 27. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                              Mike 1 Irish Level 1

                                                              I have one on order since the middle of december last. The 1Tb Evo is available but the 1Tb Pro isn't. I am in Europe and I have one on order from AMAZON UK and AMAZON in Germany.

                                                              Mike

                                                              • 28. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                                jasonvp Level 3

                                                                Bill Gehrke wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Yesterday Newegg sent me a notice that they just received a shipment of those 960 1 TB SSD's

                                                                Yep; they're already out of stock.

                                                                • 29. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                                  Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                                  1. I like a separate drive for OS/Applications for simplification of the keeping things organized, I have been able to clone my OS/Applications for testing and backup purposes without having it cluttered with project files. When I ran the single drive tests it seemed confusing to my old fashioned ways.  Missing frames was a potential way to test for timeline "play-ability" which I would love to test but turns out to be non-repeatable.
                                                                  2. If you simply want to do a disk intensive test in Premiere you want it to be minimally CPU involved, complex media is highly CPU involved.  Harm did design the highly complex 8-layer with many different media types including some 4K media H.264 timeline but since that is highly CPU and GPU intensive, no way is it good to measure Premiere's disk performance
                                                                  3. ?
                                                                  4. Yes to work properly you definitely need the PCI Gen 3 x4 M.2 SSD
                                                                  1 person found this helpful
                                                                  • 30. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                                    DanHidalz Level 1

                                                                    1. Ok, I just thought that it was a decision that had something to do with performance. I have no problem using a PCIe drive with my actual SSD but I'll sure have it finding a laptop with two SSD and one of them PCIe. So provided the fact that laptop processors are not that powerful yet, going with just one PCIe SSD seems to be more than enough.

                                                                     

                                                                    2. I edited it after writing it, I wanted to say "disk intensive", not "CPU intensive". I mean, if it is in any way, similar to editing, rendering and exporting ProRes 422, RED 4K or similar content. But ok, I get the overall idea of the CPU intensive test; I've been reading the project's website.

                                                                     

                                                                    3 & 4. All ok with those points, thanks!   

                                                                     

                                                                    5. A wrote you a fifth point above. Take a look whenever you have time. Thanks a lot for your help Bill Gehrke!! You're a valuable member of this community   

                                                                    danielh19294473 escribió:

                                                                     

                                                                    I take advantage and ask this little additional question to Bill and all of you apart from what I posted before.

                                                                     

                                                                    5. I know that this kind of benchmarks are made to be as similar as real life performance as possible (being made inside PPro and all that stuff) but how much representative it actually is of real world performance?

                                                                     

                                                                    I would't be asking this stupid question if I wouldnt have found this: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Adobe-Premiere-Pro-CC-2015-4-Storage-Optimizati on-854

                                                                     

                                                                    As they analyze it seems to be little to no difference even when working with 4K. Is anything wrong with their procedures or is it just that we're benchmarking nearing a synthetic approach and its not as representative?

                                                                     

                                                                    Thank you a lot for your help guys!

                                                                    • 31. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                                      Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      I spent about an hour composing your reply and some how lost it. Here goes again

                                                                       

                                                                      The PPBM benchmark was not designed to be as "near real life as possible"  That would require constant changes as codecs are added and features change .  PPBM was designed to be done in Premiere but to test your hardware, specifically your CPU your GPU and your disk drive(s).  The identical benchmark works in CS6 up and through the current CC 2017.  I do have different project versions and scoring scripts but the timelines are all the identical.

                                                                       

                                                                      Puget undertook a massive project and did it very well but it is not a "portable" benchmark that you can run.  They being a for profit organization could pay their employees to do that massive job and it is of great value.  On the other hand I have not received any compensation for PPBM.  Harm (when he was still with us) did ask for contributions to defray the cost of the software he used in presenting the data on ppbm7.com.  He being a business man designed a very complex web site which I cannot easily update,  He did create a document for me on how to add a new submission.  It is 24 screen grabs with annotation on each so I have not been able to even keep the result submissions up to date let alone make changes to it.

                                                                       

                                                                      On my "experimental" desktop I have one document that currently has over 400 benchmark runs recorded as I changed the configuration.  If someone is not happy with their editing experience and they run PPBM, I sometimes can point out a weakness in their system.  I am amazed how many times we have people complaining their GPU is not working--mainly because they are not using GPU accelerated effects or features.  Running PPBM demonstrates usually 100% GPU load for them.

                                                                       

                                                                      I have another web site that I am going to be publishing more test data from PPBM testing.

                                                                      1 person found this helpful
                                                                      • 32. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                                        DanHidalz Level 1

                                                                        A million thanks for taking all that time to explain all that clearly for all of us.

                                                                         

                                                                        It's all clear now about it!

                                                                         

                                                                        I recently took the benchmark and I was happy to see that it had been updated to work with CC 2017.

                                                                         

                                                                        Hope you find the way, or someone who can help you, to develop and continue with the project. It's been of great help since I met it.

                                                                         

                                                                        All the things I know today about Premiere and video editing related hardwareI owe it to Harm, your posts and the PPBM project.

                                                                         

                                                                        Again, thanks a lot for all your time.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                                          jasonvp Level 3

                                                                          Bill Gehrke wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          Yesterday Newegg sent me a notice that they just received a shipment of those 960 1 TB SSD's

                                                                          Wednesday afternoon I got email from FedEx saying that something was incoming tomorrow (Thurs) that needed my signature.  It was coming from "Ingram Micro" in PA, which is one of the big electronics distribution centers here in the North Eastern corner of the US.  And it weighed a pound.

                                                                           

                                                                          Hm.

                                                                           

                                                                          I verified my order with Samsung, and they claimed it was still "Processing."  So it couldn't be the drive, could it?  A few hours later, they emailed me and verified: yep, drive has been shipped!  And sure enough, I finally have it.  Woo hoo!

                                                                           

                                                                          Now to reinstall Windows 10.  Again.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Samsung 960 Pro Speed Freaks
                                                                            Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                            Congrats!  That is exactly how I got my first one that vwas ordered directly from Samsung.

                                                                            1 person found this helpful