17 Replies Latest reply on Feb 10, 2017 2:51 AM by NB, colourmanagement

    editing icc output profiles

    NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

      Hi guys,

       

      This is probably one for you Andrew ';~}

       

      Is anyone still editing icc profiles? I'm fully aware that the received wisdom is "garbage in garbage out" so that editing is generally only needed in the case of poor characterisation data.

       

      But there is a place perhaps where a clever edit tool might really help. When printer profiles (especially for OBA paper) are in for Photoshop's view / softproof / custom / paper white simulation option.

      As an example the profile "coated GRACoL 2006 (ISO 12647-2:2004)" [part of the photoshop installation] and the newer CGATS21_CRPC6 V2.icc both give quite a bluish preview when Photoshop's simulate paper white is invoked. It's not a great match for the paper itself.

       

      So we could edit the A2B intent which would not affect the RGBx.icc  > CMYKx.icc conversion (that needs to be left alone), just CMYKx.icc > RGBdisplay.icc, basically. Could be useful for places where a really good match is needed. Just for softproofing though, since that A2B table in the printer profile is also used within printed proofing, care is needed not to use a softproof adapted profile with a tweaked white point there

       

      I saw this useful piece from Andrew, the digitaldog, but it's referencing old software unfortunately http://digitaldog.net/files/11FineTuningICCprofiles.pdf .

      From what I can see Kodak's old Photoshop plug-in [Kodak ColorFlow Custom Color Tools v3.1] which I did rather like using, is gone now. There seems to perhaps be something similar in the new Kodak "Colorflow" but that seems a rather heavy duty toolkit for this small job.

      Gretag's Profilemaker could have done it too, but it went with OSX 10.7 I believe. As could Monaco's profiler (but only with Monaco profiles).

       

      So all the apps seem to be gone ';~} and for softproofing tune-ups, a capable editor would be really useful.

       

      Or maybe Adobe could put a slider there in Photoshop's view / softproof / custom section for varying degrees of white point simulation.

       

      IccProfLib: Main Page one option I guess?

       

      thanks for reading

       

      neilB

        • 1. Re: editing icc output profiles
          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          An alternative approach is to handle this with different calibration targets, to match different papers and press conditions.

           

          In other words - monitor white point is set to visually match paper white, and monitor black point is set to visually match max ink density. This means document white should just map directly to monitor RGB 255/255/255. The softproofing stage just deals with out-of-gamut and nothing else.

           

          You'll have to be able to handle multiple targets/profiles in the calibration software, but this is very simple in NEC Spectraview, Eizo ColorNavigator and probably also in BasICColor.

           

          Here's how it looks in ColorNavigator. Note the different white and black points:

          colornav_targets_1.png

           

          I even have one "make it look like sh*t"-target - this is used for a certain uncoated paper stock with PSO Uncoated ISO12647 (eci), and gives a surprisingly good visual match.

          • 2. Re: editing icc output profiles
            thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

            I no longer edit profiles and when I have to (for example, to fix the bug/scum dot issue with older MonacoPROFILER CMYK profiles) I use a very very old MacBook running Kodak's software.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: editing icc output profiles
              NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

              Andrew,

              yeah, thanks

              I found my copy of Kodak's Custom Color Software - VERY old Mac stuff for sure.

              Wasn't software lovely back then, requires 8MB RAM ';~}

              have a good week

              n

              • 4. Re: editing icc output profiles
                NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

                Hi D Fosse,

                 

                Yes a selection of calibrations is certainly one approach, thanks for mentioning.

                 

                In an environment, though, where, say, a designer needs to switch between coated and uncoated output many times during a typical day, that would get forgotten perhaps. ColorNavigator does make that easy though, for sure.

                 

                Additionally, I'd like to have the facility to accurately compare coated and uncoated soft proofs alongside each other. So, ideally I feel the solution IS editing the profile white point and using AbsCol rendering to the screen (i.e. Simulate paper white activated).

                 

                My general approach is to attempt to match the calibration settings to a good coated certified proof in, ideally, a GTI D50 lightbox, then go from there.

                 

                To be honest I've always found Photoshop's simulate paper white too "strong", as do most - I remember Bruce Fraser writing about his approach to this (long ago in Real World Photoshop 5 probably) which was to make a small edit to the A2B table removing about half of the paper tint and marking the profile as soft proof use only.

                 

                As Andrew wrote, you need some hard to get hold of tools to do that.

                 

                On my Coloredge CG247 with the white point target at 5800K and 120 cdM2 it's pretty successful soft proofing most papers, it's just when the OBA "mucks up" the spectrophotometer readings significantly and reads the OBA as blue (of course it IS blue, correctly but it's perceived as "super-bright" white by the eye).

                 

                Thanks for the input.

                 

                n

                • 5. Re: editing icc output profiles
                  SasquatchPatch Level 2

                  Of course, the best tool for this job is and has been the Edit module in Gretag's ProfileMaker Professional. You can easily edit whatever portion of the profile you want with tools that actually make sense and not the tools in Ps, which are designed for image editing, not profile editing. The only caveat is that you'll need a Snow Leopard boot in order to run ProfileMaker and, not sure if it's worth it to buy a dongle to make this work. While I rarely need to do this, when I do, this tool is super easy and very intuitive to use. Editing any white point value is going to be a trial and error approach as the smallest changes make big visible difference - quite the opposite of the shadow end of the spectrum.

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: editing icc output profiles
                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    Not a fan of the GMB editor. It's GUI was a vortex of confusion. When I needed to edit a 1% scum dot (bug) from one color channel from the mentioned MonacoPROFILER profile, only Kodak's Custom Color ICC, using the precision tools (curves) in Photoshop got the job done. So that's still my go to tool in the very, very rare cases I need to edit an output profile. No dongle necessary.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: editing icc output profiles
                      NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

                      Hi SasquatchPatch,

                       

                      Yes, the gretag profilemaker pro 5 edit module is an option, but as you mention, it was discontinued a long long time ago.

                      Personally I do have a macbook with 10.6.8 to run PM5 and Monaco profiler (yeah, I have the dongles) but that's not an option in the "modern" OSX world.

                      thanks, though.

                      • 8. Re: editing icc output profiles
                        NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

                        Hi Andrew,

                        thanks for that, I'd have to agree that I never felt at home with the PM5 interface either.

                        You say that for you, output profile editing is rare (me too), but do you not find that Photoshop's view/softproof/custom/simulate paper white leaves a bit to be desired? - meaning that a small edit in the A2B of the printer profile might be useful?

                        again thanks

                        • 9. Re: editing icc output profiles
                          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                          FWIW an old MacBook just to run old software is dirt cheap on eBay! I got one a few years ago for $150. I suspect even less today.

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: editing icc output profiles
                            NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

                            Hi Andrew

                            you running custom color in OS9?

                            on a pre power PC mac?

                            I might have a search

                            thanks

                            • 11. Re: editing icc output profiles
                              SasquatchPatch Level 2

                              Well anyone complaining about having to run an old OS to run ProfileMaker can't really make the same complaint about running the even older Kodak software, can they. The fact is, is that sometimes great older software solutions are not updated for a variety of reasons and we have to keep older machines around to run them. ****, I still have three boxes running 9.2.2 just to run Trident for the drum scanners, and yes, there are newer packages that will run either on OSX or Windows, but none come close to the quality or performance of the older product.

                               

                              I knew Andrew was going respond the way he did and trash the PM Edit module. He always does. He can't help it, but a lot of people criticize what they don't understand. I have the Kodak product as well and for some moves it was good, but it lacks the precision you really need for accurate moves and I don't think you can make Lab moves in it like you can in Edit, nor can you make moves in fractions of a point, which is what you really need for white point work where even a small fraction of a point is clearly visible - well, if you have good color vision. As far as the interface, when you need to do edits that simply can't be contemplated using Photoshop's tools, you'll quickly see how powerful the interface is but if you don't take the time to learn and appreciate, all you can do is criticize it.

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: editing icc output profiles
                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                NB, colourmanagement.net wrote:

                                 

                                Hi Andrew

                                you running custom color in OS9?

                                on a pre power PC mac?

                                I might have a search

                                thanks

                                I have a copy that runs in OS X (I think, and I can check, Photoshop CC).

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 13. Re: editing icc output profiles
                                  thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                   

                                  SasquatchPatch wrote:

                                   

                                  I knew Andrew was going respond the way he did and trash the PM Edit module. He always does. He can't help it, but a lot of people criticize what they don't understand. I have the Kodak product as well and for some moves it was good, but it lacks the precision you really need for accurate moves and I don't think you can make Lab moves in it like you can in Edit, nor can you make moves in fractions of a point, which is what you really need for white point work where even a small fraction of a point is clearly visible - well, if you have good color vision. As far as the interface, when you need to do edits that simply can't be contemplated using Photoshop's tools, you'll quickly see how powerful the interface is but if you don't take the time to learn and appreciate, all you can do is criticize it.

                                  Indeed, you did a great job of illustrating that with respect to Custom Color ICC, Lab and precision editing controls (or I'd the GMB product could have edited out the scum dot issue which it couldn't. As for the UI in Photoshop (a product that's been used by millions for 27 years), you'd see how powerful the interface is if you take the time to learn it.

                                  Now in terms of powerful but not as intuitive products for editing ICC profiles, anyone here 'old enough' to have used ColorBlind Edit? Still got a copy; still should run under OS9. But I'll take Custom Color ICC (for the one time each decade I need to edit a profile) any day of the week.

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 14. Re: editing icc output profiles
                                    NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

                                    Hia Andrew,

                                     

                                    I didn't know that existed. I sure miss custom color's tools.

                                    My own legacy Macbook is on OSX 10.6.8 and maintained for for PMP5 and Monaco profiler mainly.

                                     

                                    thanks

                                    • 15. Re: editing icc output profiles
                                      thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                      Just checked and the last version of Custom Color ICC (the splash screen shows "Profile Edit" is 3.0, runs on this end on OS X 10.4.11 under Photoshop CS3. Part of ColorFlow (remember that one too)?

                                      • 16. Re: editing icc output profiles
                                        NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

                                        Andrew, thanks lots.

                                         

                                        I am going on a search.

                                         

                                        have a good weekend 

                                        neil

                                        • 17. Re: editing icc output profiles
                                          NB, colourmanagement Adobe Community Professional

                                          Hi SasquatchPatch

                                           

                                          yeah, thanks,

                                          I am going to play with PMP5 edit too. It IS easier to run an old version of OSX for sure, I have a mac just for Profilemaker and PMP5.

                                          I was really looking for something I could recommend folk to sue themselves, you know, something current rather than a specialist tool we geeks keep old macs running for. If I ever find a way I'll post it up here.

                                           

                                          Yeah, Trident, that takes me back, I used to run a Howtek 4000 for that way back. SCSI though?!

                                          I bet you have a good time with old macs / OS9 / SCSi etc.

                                           

                                          have a good weekend and thanks again