21 Replies Latest reply on Feb 14, 2017 8:43 AM by dmsduco

    Color profile changes when translating via IDML

    dmsduco

      For translating InDesign documents, we deliver an IDML to our translation agency and they return a translated IDML.

      The problem: the CMYK color profile always changes.

      (in our case from ‘ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)’ to ‘U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2’)

       

      I think it’s either the translation software that doesn’t preserve the embedded color profile, or our source file that doesn’t contain the correct color information to begin with. In case of the latter, is there any way to detect this?

      The agency is willing to find a solution, but we need to be sure the source files are ok.

       

      If anyone would like to test this, here is a test IDML that should have the following color profiles assigned to it:

      Screen Shot 2017-02-10 at 16.29.29.png

       

      Thanks!

        • 1. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Opening the IDML into 2014CC the profile assignment are correct. Your screen capture is showing the Color Settings Working Spaces, which aren't necessarily the document assignments. This is what i get:

           

          Screen Shot 2017-02-10 at 12.35.27 PM.png

          • 2. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
            Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

            The IDML file only has as a RGB profile assigned: Adobe RGB (1998), and no assigned CMYK profile. I tried a test of creating a document, assigning RGB and CMYK profiles, saving as IDML. Then opening IDML to see if the assigned profiles made the trip, and they did.

             

            What application and panel are we seeing in your screen capture?

            • 3. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
              Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

              Rob, I opened IDML in CC2105 and CS6, and neither version showed an assigned CYMK profile.

              • 4. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Rob, I opened IDML in CC2105 and CS6, and neither version showed an assigned CYMK profile.

                So in your CS6 Assign Profiles the CMYK Profile shows as Discard (use current working space)?

                 

                I'm seeing ISO Coated V2300% in CS6 also. Here's my Assign Profiles dialog in CS6 for the provided IDML

                 

                Screen Shot 2017-02-10 at 1.47.30 PM.png

                 

                And the document's Proof Setup also is showing Document CMYK as the assigned ISO Coated in both CS6 and CC2014

                 

                2.png

                • 5. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Scripting is also confirming the CMYK assignment. Here my Working CMYK space is US SWOP:

                   

                   

                  alert("Document CMYK Assignment: "+app.activeDocument.cmykProfile);
                  

                   

                   

                  Screen Shot 2017-02-10 at 2.15.26 PM.png

                  • 6. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                    Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

                    Here's my CS6 Assign Profile:

                    profile.jpg

                    • 7. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      That's really weird, I can't think of a way that could happen assuming we are opening the same file unchanged—unless it's some kind of plugin interaction. I checked the document's policy and it's not set to Convert.

                       

                      If a document really has no profile (it was created with the CMYK Policy set to Off, or the profile was discarded) you would get this:

                       

                      Screen Shot 2017-02-10 at 4.03.03 PM.png

                      But your capture is showing SWOP as both the assignment and the working space so there is an assignment, it's just not ISO Coated.

                      • 8. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Here's my CS6 Assign Profile:

                         

                        If the IDML's CMYK Policy was set to Convert to Working Space (which I'm not seeing here), I would expect what you are showing in your capture.

                         

                        Try running this script, which displays the document profile and policy:

                         

                        alert("Document CM:\nDocument CMYK Assignment:\n"+app.activeDocument.cmykProfile +"\n\nDocument CMYK Policy:\n"+app.activeDocument.cmykPolicy.toString())
                        

                         

                        This is what I get after opening the IDML

                         

                        Screen Shot 2017-02-10 at 4.45.34 PM.png

                        • 9. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                          Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

                          Here is a link to the ECI website. Midway down the page, check out this section:

                          ICC profiles from ECI (old versions)

                          Below you can find ICC profiles for printing conditions which are not yet updated to the current ISO 12647-2:2013 and older versions of some ICC profiles from ECI. These profiles are provided only in order to enable you to process older files. In any other case it is urgently recommended to use only the current versions of the ICC profiles from ICC.

                           

                          Perhaps this particular profile is problematic.

                          • 10. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Maybe. Your link seems to be broken

                            • 11. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              So I pulled my ISO Coated 300% profile and tried opening the IDML and do get the same US SWOP assignment you are showing. The reassignment seems to always be SWOP and not necessarily the current CMYK working space.

                               

                              I don't know if this is a limitation of IDML, but when you send a regular ID file the client doesn't have to have the profile installed for the assignment to work.

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Very true, Rob - but the industry-standard translation environments all work exclusively on IDML. If you send your INDD to a translation firm, there is a99% chance that the first thing their estimator will do is pop out open and export IDML for analysis.

                                 

                                OTOH, one of the last things I'd do before delivering a translated INDD would be to check that document-specific settings like profiles were preserved correctly in the target language. This is just one of around 100k reasons why I won't work from IDML alone, and require full source files before I begin work.

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 13. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  …I don't know if this is a limitation of IDML, but when you send a regular ID file the client doesn't have to have the profile installed for the assignment to work.

                                   

                                  Hi Rob,

                                  I would suspect a bug with the import filter of InDesign.
                                  Not a limitation with IDML itself.

                                   

                                  We could inspect the IDML and check if there is any comment on the color profiles.

                                  Below some XML from the OPs designmap.xml that I restructured a bit for readability:

                                   

                                  From the designmap.xml

                                   

                                  <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?>
                                  <?aid style="50" type="document" readerVersion="6.0" featureSet="257" product="12.0(81)" ?>
                                  
                                  <
                                      Document xmlns:idPkg="http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeInDesign/idml/1.0/packaging" 
                                      DOMVersion="12.0" 
                                      Self="d" 
                                      StoryList="uac" 
                                      UntitledDocumentCount="17" 
                                      ZeroPoint="0 0" 
                                      ActiveLayer="uc7" 
                                      
                                      CMYKProfile="ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)" 
                                      RGBProfile="Adobe RGB (1998)" 
                                      
                                      SolidColorIntent="UseColorSettings" 
                                      AfterBlendingIntent="UseColorSettings" 
                                      DefaultImageIntent="UseColorSettings" 
                                      
                                      RGBPolicy="PreserveEmbeddedProfiles" 
                                      CMYKPolicy="CombinationOfPreserveAndSafeCmyk" 
                                      
                                      AccurateLABSpots="false"
                                  >
                                  

                                   

                                  So the basic information is there.

                                  What's problematic is:

                                   

                                  1. InDesign's behavior if the named profile is not available:

                                  There is no clue what is used with the IDML.

                                  You have to check designmap.XML

                                   

                                  2. No message that the profiles in the IDML do not match the current settings at the time the IDML is opened.

                                   

                                  3. Some settings are not stored in the IDML.

                                  At least I cannot find them:


                                  Engine : e.g. Adobe ACE
                                  Priority : e.g. Perceptive
                                  Blackpoint Compensation : on/off

                                   

                                  A question to the OP:

                                  Can you check the designmap.xml of the IDML you recieved from the translation service if the values of:

                                   

                                  CMYKProfile

                                  RGBProfile

                                  RGBPolicy

                                  CMYKPolicy

                                   

                                  are the same as in your IDML you sent them for translating?

                                   

                                  Rob was saying:

                                  … but when you send a regular ID file the client doesn't have to have the profile installed for the assignment to work.

                                  Yes, because not only the profiles, but the whole color settings—the information in the csf file—is saved with an InDesign document.

                                   

                                   

                                  Regards,
                                  Uwe

                                  • 14. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    At first glance I was thinking this is a significant bug, but in practice it's easy to see why it would go unnoticed and have little practical affect.

                                     

                                    I'm sure a very high percentage of ID docs get assigned the default SWOP profile, and an even higher percentage get assigned an installed profile (profiles in the Recommended folder), so those docs wouldn't be affected.

                                     

                                    And then, a very high percentage of printers do all they can to avoid problematic CMYK to CMYK conversions at output—one of the reasons PDFX-1a continues to be commonly requested. So, even if the ISO Coated profile gets reassigned to SWOP, chances are the final output or export will be to document CMYK and the reassignment would have no affect on the output CMYK numbers of native CMYK objects.

                                    • 15. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                      dmsduco Level 1

                                      Thanks for the comments! Here is some more info:

                                       

                                      1. I was not aware the Assign profiles showed the actual document colour profiles. Actually I always check Source Space section in the Convert to Profile... panel. On my screen the CMYK profile name was cut off which is why I took a screen capture of the Colour Settings panel (which happens to have the same profiles in my case). Sorry about that confusion!

                                       

                                      2. I don't have access to the designmap.xml of the translated IDML right now. I will check this on monday.

                                       

                                      3. Allthough ECI seems to mark the ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) profile as obsolete, it's still the recommended CMYK working space according to GWG (which is what I still follow here in Belgium). That's probably another discussion.

                                       

                                      4. Even if we deliver an INDD, the translation agency always returns an IDML. I'm not sure if the IDML passes through their InDesign at all but I can ask them. A translated INDD is possible only as an extra (paid) DTP service.

                                       

                                      5. Indeed for native CMYK objects the swapped profiles aren't problematic. But for RGB photos (which we prefer), color shifts occur when the CMYK profile is changed and the document is exported to PDFX-1a.

                                       

                                      6. For anyone who reads the document profiles in InDesign, what is the CMYK Colour Management Policy set to? This probably influences what InDesign shows as used profiles document profile, no?

                                      In my case (design environment): Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles)

                                      I think in a translation environment it should be: Preserve Embedded Profiles

                                      • 16. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        3. Allthough ECI seems to mark the ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) profile as obsolete, it's still the recommended CMYK working space according to GWG (which is what I still follow here in Belgium). That's probably another discussion.

                                        Jeffrey's idea that the older ISO Coated v2 300% profile is causing the problem was a good guess but not right. I can replicate your problem with any profile by saving out an IDML, removing the profile from my system, restarting ID, and opening the IDML.

                                         

                                        I think your only option in a workflow like this is to provide the profile to the agency and make sure it is in their systems, or reassign (not convert) the ISO Coated profile when the translation comes back. The reassignment could be easily scripted.

                                         

                                         

                                        6. For anyone who reads the document profiles in InDesign, what is the CMYK Colour Management Policy set to? This probably influences what InDesign shows as used profiles document profile, no?

                                        Your current Color Settings' CM Policies are saved with the document on creation, so changing the policies in Color Settings wouldn't affect existing documents.

                                         

                                        For CMYK:

                                         

                                        Off creates a document with no profile assigned and when the document is opened in the future whatever profile happens to be set as the Working CMYK space in Color Settings is used as document CMYK. Not usually a good idea, but if ISO Coated v2 is your house profile and it never gets changed in your Color Settings you could consider it. In that case your docs would go to the translation service with no profile and when they come back to you, your Color Settings' CMYK Working space would be used for the export to PDF/X-1a.

                                         

                                        Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked profiles) creates a document with the working space assigned, and where all placed CMYK objects have their embedded profiles ignored and get reassigned document CMYK. It's the default for a number of presets because in general CMYK-to-CMYK conversions do more harm than good.

                                         

                                        Preserve Embedded Profiles creates a document with the working space assigned, and honors any placed CMYK object's embedded profile. This can force a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion of placed objects if there is an export to a conflicting CMYK destination (i.e., placing US SWOP in an ISO Coated doc and exporting to PDF/X-1a).

                                         

                                        Convert to Working Space creates a document with the working space assigned, and in the future if the current Color Settings policy is still Convert to Working Space and the working CMYK space conflicts with the document's assigned CMYK profile, the native ID colors and swatches will get converted into the working space and the working space will get assigned to the document.

                                         

                                        The only way to change an existing document's policy, is via scripting or by checking Ask When Opening in Color Settings before you open the doc.

                                        • 17. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          Rob Day wrote

                                          I think your only option in a workflow like this is to provide the profile to the agency and make sure it is in their systems, or reassign (not convert) the ISO Coated profile when the translation comes back. The reassignment could be easily scripted.

                                          Hi Rob,

                                          I see another way:


                                          We could use a label with the document ( or a page item in the document, could be also a Note object, something that survives the translation process ) that could—at least—transport the name of the used csv file in the moment the IDML is exported.

                                           

                                          When the translated IDML is back fom the translation service, the name could be extracted, the opened IDML should be closed, the appropriate csv should be loaded to the color settings and the IDML opened again and the right color settings will be used.

                                           

                                          1. With ExtendScript the labeling can be done with the methods insertLabel( "KeyString" , "ValueString" ) and extracting the information with extractLabel( "KeyString" ).


                                          2. On the UI side—without scripting—the labeling can be done by the user with InDesign's Script Label functionality on e.g. a selected text frame or a selected table. Not on the document itself.

                                           

                                          Regards,

                                          Uwe

                                          • 18. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            The reassignment could be easily scripted.

                                            Hi Rob,

                                            I see another way:

                                            Yes in this particular case a solution could be scripted in a variety of ways.

                                             

                                            If the translation company is only making text changes and not choosing or converting colors, or exporting or printing, then all that has to happen is a reassignment when the file comes back—the assigned profile changes are only affecting the CMYK colors' display appearance and original values would come back unchanged. The translation company doesn't need an accurate soft proof display because they are only editing text.

                                             

                                            If the translation company is choosing, converting, or exporting color then the arbitrary reassignment to SWOP on their end presents a potential color management problem. That scenario would require some kind of communication—there's probably not a scripting solution because they don't have the needed ISO Coated profile installed on their end.

                                            • 19. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                              dmsduco Level 1
                                              Your current Color Settings' CM Policies are saved with the document on creation, so changing the policies in Color Settings wouldn't affect existing documents.

                                              That I didn’t know! I wish InDesign (in general) would made it more clear which settings are tied to document and which are tied to the computer.

                                               

                                              The only way to change an existing document's policy, is via scripting or by checking Ask When Opening in Color Settings before you open the doc.

                                              Unfortunately the checkbox doesn’t work with IDML files. For example: assign a different CMYK profile than the working space to a document. Save as INDD and export as IDML.

                                              Open the INDD: InDesign warns for profile mismatch.

                                              Open the IDML: InDesign does not throw the warning...

                                               

                                              I think your only option in a workflow like this is to provide the profile to the agency and make sure it is in their systems, or reassign (not convert) the ISO Coated profile when the translation comes back. The reassignment could be easily scripted.

                                              For now I’ll deliver the profile to the translation company and hope it works. The proposed script is maybe something for the future. Thanks for all the help!

                                              • 20. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                That I didn’t know! I wish InDesign (in general) would made it more clear which settings are tied to document and which are tied to the computer.

                                                I think there is a bit of a misconception about how Color Settings works, probably driven by the conventional wisdom that color problems can be solved by sync'ing your Color Settings—a change in Color Settings would only affect future documents (or existing documents where there are no profile(s) assigned).

                                                 

                                                Open the IDML: InDesign does not throw the warning...

                                                I think you are right I had never checked an IDML.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                If you are using OSX try this AppleScript which lets you change profiles and policies for an existing doc without jumping thru the Ask When hoops:

                                                 

                                                http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/ChangeDocumentPolicies.zip

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2017-02-14 at 10.53.08 AM.png

                                                • 21. Re: Color profile changes when translating via IDML
                                                  dmsduco Level 1

                                                  Useful script, thanks!