10 Replies Latest reply on Mar 19, 2017 5:21 PM by jonathanl79031925

    Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning

    jonathanl79031925

      In LR, if there are any colors out of gamut for a specified destination color space (like a printer profile), some people will recommend to turn down the saturation (or mess with the HSL settings) in order to fix it. However, simply exporting it with the destination color space embedded in the saved image file will automatically convert all the colors into that space. Which means then you can load the exported image back into LR and verify that indeed, the Destination Gamut Warning has disappeared entirely (no more red). What's more is that the results are almost always superior than what you could achieve manually by editing HSL sliders anyway!

       

      So my question is this: Why isn't there an option to do this conversion in LR, without having to export an image and then load up the exported file? It just seems like a lot of extra steps for something that can be done in a click of a button. It seems very odd that exporting and importing a file is necessary to do the automatic conversion.

        • 1. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Yes and no. It's not as simple as that.

           

          Yes, it will be brought into gamut, sort of. This will happen in any case, when the file is moved into another color space (screen, print or export). There is no "separate step".

           

          But it's still clipped, and clipping may or may not look objectionable. Sometimes you really should make an effort to fix it, sometimes it's no big deal. The usual effect of clipping is to kill texture and detail. It will often be damaging to intangible qualities like "air" and "space".

           

          Either way, HSL is rarely the right tool - it's to general, with too much collateral damage. You need to work with a more targeted approach. It's not just a question of knocking down saturation across the board.

           

          Done well, effective gamut remapping can improve an image considerably. But it's often a lot of work, which may or may not be worth it.

          • 2. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
            jonathanl79031925 Level 1

            IMHO, it would still be a very useful and handy feature to be able to convert to different color space without exporting. Even if it's technically not the absolute "correct" way, it works for me in 95% of cases when a "targeted approach" is too time consuming or unnecessary.

            • 3. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              jonathanl79031925  wrote

               

              IMHO, it would still be a very useful and handy feature to be able to convert to different color space without exporting. Even if it's technically not the absolute "correct" way, it works for me in 95% of cases when a "targeted approach" is too time consuming or unnecessary.

               

              In addition to what

               

               

              • 4. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
                jonathanl79031925 Level 1

                In my case, I am using an online lab to process prints (WHCC) and they only accept sRGB or Adobe RGB. However, they do provide ICC printer profiles for soft proofing, which is what I'm using to make sure I am not out of gamut.

                 

                So basically my workflow is as follows:

                 

                1) Export image from LR with WHCC ICC profile embedded.

                2) Import image back into LR.

                3) Export image a second time with sRGB profile embedded.

                4) Import image back into LR again to verify all (or most) colors are inside gamut.

                5) Send sRGB file to lab

                 

                As you can see, this workflow is cumbersome to say the least!

                • 5. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
                  Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  This is quite a useless step. All it does upon export is clip colors. This does not solve your problem as Fosse notes. It just clips them and now the clipped colors happen to be in range of your proofing space. You also introduce possible numerical conversion errors that can degrade the quality of your file and introduce banding problems. You really want to minimize the number of color space conversion steps. Also, this is completely useless for a raw file and is quite contrary to the non-destructive editing approach as it is indeed destructive.

                   

                  Fosse describes the correct approach. You should not be obsessed with at all cost bringing colors into the destination gamut. Simply visually inspect the soft proof (turn the gamut warnings off!) and only if areas of color get washed out and lose details you should try to address it. Most of the time, the soft proof shows that the out-of-gamut is actually just fine even though the OOG overlay might show out-of-gamut areas. Only try to fix it if there is a problem that is clearly visible and objectionable. Trying to get every color perfectly in gamut can really ruin an image if not done right.

                   

                  I also caution against using the HSL tools as they really impact your entire image. Only when the only instance of the objectionable color is what is out of gamut might it work but in general it gets bad results as it also impacts the instances of that same color that are not OOG. It can work but only in very limited cases.

                  • 6. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
                    jonathanl79031925 Level 1

                    If using the HSL tool is not recommended, what is the recommended way to address large portions of the image being out of gamut?

                    • 7. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
                      jonathanl79031925 Level 1

                      My understanding is that if I send an image to the lab with out of gamut colors, those colors will be clipped anyway. So there is no advantage to fixing the problem before sending it to the lab?

                      • 8. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Generally do nothing. Only if you lose detail in those areas, you should use some localized edits (negative saturation generally) and that should fix it. Considering the clipping part, It depends on how the lab works whether there is an advantage. If they insist on doing the conversion from whatever you deliver, you can use their profile to check for problems (again an out-of-gamut warning is not generally a problem) and color shifts that you might want to correct. If they allow you to deliver files in their profile, there is some advantage in doing the conversion yourself as you avoid a conversion step that can potentially induce color banding. Consider the hypothetical case that you would send them a file in 8-bit adobeRGB vs a 8-bit printProfile. What happens in the first case is that you go linear 16-bit ppRGB->8-bit aRGB->8-bit printProfile, in the second case you go directly 16-bit ppRGB->8-bit printProfile. It is possible that the intermediate step to adobeRGB or sRGB actually blows some colors that are printable in the final destination and you also can get bit-conversion errors that can cause banding.

                        • 9. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          jonathanl79031925  wrote

                           

                          In my case, I am using an online lab to process prints (WHCC) and they only accept sRGB or Adobe RGB. However, they do provide ICC printer profiles for soft proofing, which is what I'm using to make sure I am not out of gamut.

                          Since you don't have the option of applying the printer profile conversion yourself I suggest the following workflow:

                           

                          1) Adjust the raw image file as you normally would prior to soft proof. Export to a full-size 16 bit TIFF file with Adobe RGB color space.

                           

                          2) Using the exported TIFF file in Soft Proof mode apply correction adjustments using the suggestions already provided. It appears the WHCC printer profiles are tagged as 'Perceptual' so make sure to use only that Soft Proof 'Intent' when making your adjustments.

                           

                          3) Export to JPEG file format with 80 Quality and Adobe RGB color space. Use 'Resize to Fit' with Resolution 300 ppi, print size dimensions in inches, and Output Sharpening for the target paper type (Matte, Glossy).

                           

                          This meets the File Requirements criteria that WHCC requests, which helps to insure the best results.

                          • 10. Re: Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning
                            jonathanl79031925 Level 1

                            Ok, thank you guys for the info!