16 Replies Latest reply on Apr 12, 2017 5:46 AM by rob day

    Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?

    Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

      Hi everybody,

      it seems that something substantial has changed between InDesign CC 2014 and CC 2015 when it comes to using RGB images and RGB swatches with InDesign.
      Rob Day discovered a difference in behavior between two versions of InDesign when switching the transparency blend space from CMYK to RGB.

       

      But let's start with the base problem.

      How would placed RGB images react if an effect is applied by InDesign's Effects panel?
      If they contain reduced opacity done with PhotoShop's Layer opacity feature vs the same effect done with inDesign's Effects panel?


      Let's take the easiest effect you can apply: Reduced opacity.

      And let's compare what is showing with Separation Preview turned on when comparing two different settings that mainly influence color fidelity:
      Transparency Blend Space set to Document CMYK or set to Document RGB.

       

      InDesign CS6 ( also InDesign CC and CC 2014 ):

       

      Transparency Blend Space set to Document CMYK

      Different colors are showing when compared row 2 with row 3.

      CS6-TransparencyBlendSpace-CMYK.png

      Transparency Blend Space set to Document RGB

      Problem gone, because the Blend Space was switched to RGB:

      CS6-TransparencyBlendSpace-RGB.png

       

      InDesign CC 2015 ( also InDesign CC 2017 or CC 2017.1 ):

       

      Transparency Blend Space set to Document CMYK

      Same with CS6. Row 2 and row 3 are showing different colors:

      CC-2015-TransparencyBlendSpace-CMYK.png

       

       

      Transparency Blend Space set to Document RGB

      Compare that to the CS6 behavior. Quite different, isn't it?

      The trick changing the Blend Space to RGB is not working anymore:

       

      CC-2015-TransparencyBlendSpace-RGB.png

       

       

      All files can be downloaded from my Dropbox account:

      Dropbox - BlendSpace-CMYK-vs-RGB-Different-InDesign-Versions.zip

      BlendSpace-CMYK-vs-RGB-Different-InDesign-Versions.zip

       

          BlendSpace-CMYK-PSD-Placed-CS6.indd

          BlendSpace-RGB-PSD-Placed-CS6.indd

       

          BlendSpace-CMYK-PSD-Placed-CC-2015.4.1.indd

          BlendSpace-RGB-PSD-Placed-CC-2015.4.1.indd

       

          Gradient-3-Layers-sRGB.psd

          ISO-Coated-v2-300-RelativeColorMetric.csf

       

      I agree with Rob, that we see a substantial bug with InDesign CC 2015 and CC 2017 when it comes to Transparency Blend Space set to Document RGB.

      FWIW: If you change from CMYK to RGB with the Blend Space text done with [Black] is shown as a mix of CMYK values and not as 100 K only. That is unavoidable with InDesign because InDesign is not supporting color separations with special Device-Link profiles. But this is not my point here.

       

      Also see this thread where the problem came up recently:

      In InDesign what settings give the most realistic preview of a CMYK document (no spots)

       

      Regards,
      Uwe

        • 1. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I think, I found a solution with InDesign CC 2015 and CC 2017:

          You'll nedd a solid white object in the background.

           

          CC-2015-TransparencyBlendSpace-RGB-WhiteBacking.png

           

          In detail:

           

          CC-2015-TransparencyBlendSpace-RGB-WhiteBacking-Detail-1.png

           

          Regards,
          uwe

          • 2. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            I was just about to post the same. I wonder if this is intentional? Seems like it could create real problems when opening some legacy files.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              FWIW: If you change from CMYK to RGB with the Blend Space text done with [Black] is shown as a mix of CMYK values and not as 100 K only. That is unavoidable with InDesign because InDesign is not supporting color separations with special Device-Link profiles. But this is not my point here.

               

              InDesign's Sep Preview does show the default black converting to 4-color when the blend space is RGB—the numbers match what you would get exporting to flattened document CMYK (PDF/X-1a). But if you export to PDF/X-4 the 100%K value is maintained (a huge plus for using X4). You would have to worry whether it will stay that way all the way to output, but if I flatten over in AcrobatPro the 100% black still holds.

               

              I think the conventional wisdom is to use CMYK as the blend space for any print project, but many of the modes produce unpleasant results because of the extra black channel and it's also at odds with the newer conventional wisdom that all images should be left as RGB. Most knowledgeable users would never consider building layered, transparent Photoshop images in CMYK mode.

               

              sep3.png

              sep4.png

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                https://forums.adobe.com/people/rob+day  wrote

                … I wonder if this is intentional? Seems like it could create real problems when opening some legacy files.

                Hi Rob,

                what's not clear to me is, if people on Windows see the same behavior…

                 

                Thanks,
                Uwe

                • 5. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  https://forums.adobe.com/people/rob+day  wrote

                  … InDesign's Sep Preview does show the default black converting to 4-color when the blend space is RGB—the numbers match what you would get exporting to flattened document CMYK (PDF/X-1a). But if you export to PDF/X-4 the 100%K value is maintained (a huge plus for using X4). You would have to worry whether it will stay that way all the way to output, but if I flatten over in AcrobatPro the 100% black still holds.

                  Hi Rob,

                  I agree.

                   

                  What InDesign is missing is a better reading mechanism for colors.

                  ( And I do not mean the Digital Color Meter app that comes with OSX. ;-) )

                   

                  Something that is showing CMYK, RGB or Lab values when you hover your cursor over an element on the page.
                  Together with color space(s) and rendering intents. Just like Acrobat's Output Preview with its Object Inspector.

                   

                   

                  Regards,
                  Uwe

                  • 6. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                    Frans van der Geest (ACP) Adobe Community Professional

                    A solid [Paper] background... I remember this big big BUG from InDesign 2 (not CS2, but 2) where the colour management setting messed up rendering intent. Solution: a solid [Paper] background!

                    In those days all our documents had a background layer containing a [Paper] background to correct for this bug.

                    • 7. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                      Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Hi Frans,

                      wow… InDesign 2.

                       

                      Could you check, if you can recreate the bug on a Windows version of CC 2015 or CC 2017 ?
                      The link to my test files are in my first post of this thread.

                       

                      Thanks,
                      Uwe

                      • 8. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                        Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Here another detail we should always remember with this bug.

                        If you are using CMYK as blend space and you turned off Overprint Preview or Separation Preview one could be under the false impression that a [Paper] background is exactly the wrong thing to do.

                         

                        Let's recap the workaround again:

                        1. Setting Transparency Blend Space to RGB

                        2. Use a [Paper] background to trigger the right color

                        3. Turn Separation Preview on

                         

                        CC-2015-TransparencyBlendSpace-RGB-WhiteBacking-2.png

                         

                         

                        Here a very tricky situation with:

                        1. Setting Transparency Blend Space to CMYK

                        2. Use a [Paper] background to trigger the right color

                        3. Turn Separation Preview off

                         

                        It seems, that using a [Paper] background is exactly the wrong thing to do.
                        That's a real trap. Don't trust the view!!

                         

                        CC-2015-TransparencyBlendSpace-CMYK-WhiteBacking-SepPreview-OFF.png

                         

                         

                        Here with:

                        1. Setting Transparency Blend Space to CMYK

                        2. Use a [Paper] background to trigger the right color

                        3. Turn Separation Preview on

                         

                        CC-2015-TransparencyBlendSpace-CMYK-WhiteBacking-SepPreview-ON.png

                         

                        Regards,
                        Uwe

                        • 9. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Uwe, I beginning to think this is intentional and not a bug.

                           

                          Photoshop 2017 seems to be doing the same thing when there's no background and I don't have earlier versions installed to check if it is new.

                           

                          Here I've duplicated your sRGB gradient, removed the Background layer, and set both windows to Proof Colors with my CMYK Working space as the setup (GRACol 2006). My Transparency Grid pref is set to None. There may be a rational here that's lost on me, but it's hard to imagine why 0% opacity vs. a 255|255|255 white background would produce such different results. The conversion to CMYK of the version with no background bears no resemblance to the CMYK proof setup, whether I choose to merge or not:

                           

                          Screen Shot 2017-04-10 at 3.42.13 PM.png

                          • 10. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                            Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Hi Rob,

                            I cannot see this behavior in PhotoShop. Not in PhotoShop CS6 and not in PhotoShop CC 2017.1
                            Both versions do the same thing. Your "Gradient-3-Layers-sRGB copy" file seems to be showing an effective opacity of 25%.
                            Don't know why and that's rather strange. What is your exact version of PhotoShop?

                             

                            I cannot recreate it if I open my CS6 psd in CC 2017.1 and copy/paste the layer to a new document.
                            Or if I recreate the gradient from scratch and change opacity. Gradienrt is 0|255|0 to 255|0|0 in sRGB.

                             

                            Here the gradient set to opacity 50%

                             

                            PSD-CC-2017.1-Gradient-Opacity-50%.png

                             

                            Here with 25%

                             

                            PSD-CC-2017.1-Gradient-Opacity-25%.png

                             

                            Could you make your sample psd available?
                            Together with your csf file?

                             

                            Regards,
                            Uwe

                            • 11. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                              Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                              InDesign's Sep Preview does show the default black converting to 4-color when the blend space is RGB—the numbers match what you would get exporting to flattened document CMYK (PDF/X-1a). But if you export to PDF/X-4 the 100%K value is maintained (a huge plus for using X4). You would have to worry whether it will stay that way all the way to output, but if I flatten over in AcrobatPro the 100% black still holds.

                               

                              Well I never. Overprint Preview's false display of black and tints of black converting to RGB has always been my main reason to stick with CMYK blend space, even though RGB would be better.

                              • 12. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                                Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Hi Danny,

                                 

                                I don't think, that Overprint Preview's display is false in regards to 100 K Black and tints of this.
                                It's just so that the feature is limited and therefore only is able to give a preview of a flattened document CMYK as it is done with PDF/X-1a output using document CMYK as target. Or the settings one chooses with the Proof Colors command.

                                 

                                Overprint Preview cannot know what you do in PDF Export when a certain PDF/X-4 export setting is applied.
                                And you simply cannot simulate what's done with the PDF after it is written and managed down the PDF workflow process chain.

                                Using PDF/X-4 implicitly means: do separations later. And a preview in Acrobat would only show a suggestion how the separations would look like if a certain separation method is later used.

                                 

                                Regards,
                                Uwe

                                • 13. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Could you make your sample psd available?

                                  I'm using the blend sample from your files Gradient-3-Layers-sRGB.psd with the latest version of PS. I'm not up to speed with the latest Photoshop's preferences, so it could be something about my setup. I'll try trashing my prefs.

                                   

                                  Screen Shot 2017-04-11 at 7.26.44 AM.png

                                  • 14. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Overprint Preview's false display of black and tints of black

                                    I take Separations Preview literally—it's showing the output numbers you will get printing seps out of InDesign, and in that case you would get 4-color blacks.

                                     

                                    I'm not sure, but this might be new to AcrobatDC. I have a fairly ancient postscript printer in house and was surprised to find that it will print separations with the correct black-only, even though the Acrobat Print Preview predicts it won't (here preview shows cyan in the text but it doesn't print that way) :

                                     

                                    Screen Shot 2017-04-11 at 7.35.55 AM.png

                                    • 15. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                                      Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Hi together,

                                       

                                      why all this fuss about displaying RGB with InDesign?

                                      More and more output is created for non-print related stuff.


                                      For now let me concentrate on PDF output that is viewed on the web.

                                      I think everybody will agree, that an object with a white backed gradient should look the same like an object that is not white backed with the same gradient fill. Or do I'm missing something here?

                                       

                                      So my basic expectation would be, that:

                                       

                                      1. A white object in the background would make no difference.

                                      2. If a transparent RGB gradient is stacked on it.

                                       

                                      And yet another one:

                                      3. That a placed PhotoShop image that comes with a layer with opacity 50% would resemble the same image with a layer with opacity 100% where in InDesign the opacity is reduced to 50% with the Effects panel.

                                       

                                      Provided: Transparency Blend Space is set to document RGB and the image's ICC RGB profile is the same as the document RGB.

                                      To make a complex thing less complex, let's say it is all defined as sRGB.

                                       

                                      So what will happen if we output for PDF Interactive ?

                                      First thing we will notice if we open the PDF in Acrobat Pro/DC:

                                      It seems, that there is no ICC profile for sRGB attached with the PDF.

                                       

                                      Why do I say this?

                                      If I open Acrobat's superb Output Preview Acrobat's default Simulation Profile is used.
                                      With my Acrobat this is not sRGB for RGB but ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI) for CMYK.

                                       

                                      So Acrobat is not able to detect, that the exported PDF should be viewed with sRGB only.
                                      Also no Adobe Reader will detect that.

                                       

                                      Acrobat's Output Preview aside what will show if I open such a PDF with Acrobat Pro/DC?
                                      Something I really did not expect. I see a difference in color if white backing is there or not.

                                      Note: the object with the green stroke is a rectangle filled with [Paper] in the background of all objects on the page.

                                       

                                      AdobePDF-Interactive-OpenedInAcrobat-ColorReading-1.png

                                       

                                      AdobePDF-Interactive-OpenedInAcrobat-ColorReading-2.png

                                       

                                      Only after I switch to Output Preview and change the simulation to sRGB I see no difference in white backing and not white backing gradients that are set to 50% opacity with InDesign's Effects panel.

                                       

                                       

                                      AdobePDF-Interactive-OpenedInAcrobat-ColorReading-3.png

                                       

                                      Only then Output Preview is simulating the color view as if the whole page had a white backing object.

                                       

                                      FWIW: This result is the same if you do the export to PDF Interactive with InDesign CS6 or CC 2015.4 / CC 2017.1.

                                      Here an exported sample from inDesign CS6 just after opened with Acrobat DC where Output Preview has not had the chance to simulate anything:

                                       

                                      AdobePDF-Interactive-OpenedInAcrobat-ColorReading-4.png

                                       

                                      This all is rather confusing.

                                       

                                      To make the confusion perfect:

                                      Switch the simulation of Output Preview from sRGB to Wide Gamut RGB.

                                       

                                      The color appearance of objects treated with changed opacity in InDesign will change again compared to our reference PSD file with the 50% opacity layer and objects that are filled with RGB process colors that are saved as tints.

                                       

                                      Simulated sRGB:

                                      AdobePDF-Interactive-OpenedInAcrobat-ColorReading-5.png

                                       

                                      Simulated Wide Gamut RGB:

                                       

                                      AdobePDF-Interactive-OpenedInAcrobat-ColorReading-8.png

                                       

                                      Now the question is:
                                      What is the best strategy to control RGB color experience for exported interactive PDF files that could be viewed in various viewers?
                                      Under conditions you cannot control.

                                       

                                      Do not apply effects with InDesign?
                                      That's hard to swallow.

                                       

                                      Always use white backing?
                                      Hm…

                                       

                                      Regards,
                                      Uwe

                                      • 16. Re: Working with RGB | CS6—CC2014.2 vs CC2015.4—CC2017.1 | substantial bug?
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        What is the best strategy to control RGB color experience for exported interactive PDF files that could be viewed in various viewers?

                                         

                                        When I'm showing clients layouts I flatten a print PDF to sRGB and that produces consistent color over a broad range of readers and browsers. Unfortunately, you can't flatten an interactive PDF without losing the interactivity and interactive PDFs continue to be unreliable across different readers. Something tells be Publish Online means there isn't a fix for interactive PDF problems

                                         

                                        So Acrobat 4, sRGB, include profile. Checking Simulate Overprint will force a CMYK simulation and the transparency bug shows.

                                         

                                        Screen Shot 2017-04-12 at 8.21.16 AM.png

                                         

                                        InDesign, Chrome, AcrobatPro (Output Preview closed), Apple Preview

                                         

                                         

                                        Screen Shot 2017-04-12 at 8.29.28 AM.png