14 Replies Latest reply on May 1, 2017 12:50 PM by osgood_

    Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.

    pziecina Adobe Community Professional

      Myself and Birnou, have been discussing the best way to start a discussion regarding the above.

       

      Unlike previous such discussions, we do not wish it to become a 'can I use' or a 'should I use' topic, but instead one that concentrates on the actual use. If anyone who would be interested in joining such a discussion, wishes to comment on the where or how, it should be discussed or make constructive suggestions, then please do so.

       

      The comments so far can be read, at -

      https://forums.adobe.com/community/creativepipeline/blog/2017/04/11/bringing-the-content-t o-design#comment-154952

        • 1. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
          osgood_ Level 8

          It's hard work trying to get someone interested in something if what they are using now does the job, albeit using techniques which have been superceeded, especially as what is being discussed is not well supported or not supported at all yet in whatever software they might be using or is yet to make it into a front line browser.

           

          Not really sure myself that Adobe forums are the right place to be discussing advanced web-development techniques, very few will acknowledge the post/s or make contributions as they don't really wander too far outside of what the bit of software they are currently using is capable of producing.

           

          For DW users it is predominately Bootstrap 3 so until Bootstrap 4 arrives the majority probably would have never even come across Flexbox. If that trend continues it will be Bootstrap 5 before they will acknowledge  grid and shapes.

           

          .........what came first, the chicken or the egg.

           

          Perhaps the better angle is asking:

           

          Why are you NOT currently using Flexbox or Shapes or Grid? 1 answer should be easy, the other 2 could be interesting.

          • 2. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
            pziecina Adobe Community Professional

            Thanks for at least replying Os.

             

            The discussion would be more in the way of a tutorial of how to, than a general open to all comments on the subject type of thing. Which is why we are concerned about the best way and place to start it.

             

            The stupid part about css shapes, is that it has as much support on mobile devices as flexbox, and is supported  in Chrome. As for css grids, I don't think we need to even consider telling users anything beyond the how to anymore, and then leave it up to them to decide the when.

             

            I don't have problems with any of the items being supported, but the only one Dw users can reliably use is css shapes, and that is only because the brackets editor had the shapes creator extension available, (plus it was an Adobe created spec). So to create a discussion on any of them would not be Dw specific, but a general 'this is what you would write'.

            • 3. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
              B i r n o u Adobe Community Professional

              so... what do we decide... open a thread about it... or not... writing a tutorial, a template ?... or just let it run by itself...

               

              for what I think, that is not an advanced web-developement technics... it's just part of the tools that we have around us... and standard... the question as Paula first asked, it is not to be in advance on techs in DW... but... not beeing later on it ...

               

              If folks @Adobe don't start to think about how easly integrate standard in DW now... then who will....

              it's not like betting on an owner horse, was it bootstrap, jquery, or either spry... here we are talking about w3c recommandations

               

              I agree that DW makes its own business on a WYSIWYG user interface, and that's great... but that does'nt mean to be blind and deaf, on what is in the process of being set up and will be available broadly faster than we think

               

              anyway, Im' almost done on a Sass serie... and I will the start a new serie on those items... grid, flex and shape... if anyone want to join....

              • 4. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                pziecina Adobe Community Professional

                Hi Birnou,

                 

                I also posted this in the ACP forum -

                https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2306261

                 

                The objections, (and lack of people expressing interest) to the Dw forum, make doing so questionable, so you are probably correct in doing this as a tutorial. I will in the meantime create a few demos using the features.

                • 5. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                  osgood_ Level 8

                  Tutorials seem the most positive way ahead, I think. They can be posted to any web-development forum where there might just be more uptake and enthusiasm shown. This forum is mainly populated by 'blinkered' users as a result of the DW workflow which really makes it non-desirable to learn any coding which it does not yet support through point and click. I think unless you spread your wings beyond the Adobe forums (infact I cant even work out why you're posting this stuff here, it's beyond the technical scope of all but a few) you're both wasting your valuable time and energy trying to convert those that rely of a bit of software to produce a website. That's what I think anyway am I'm correct judging by the complete lack of response/interest.

                   

                  Stick the same posts on a professional forum and you will be inundated with ideas, debate and suggestions.

                  • 6. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                    pziecina Adobe Community Professional

                    The problems with anything new being suggested in this forum, or even the pre-release and being rejected by participants and Dw, is not new, (at least not for me) the difference now though, is that Muse and similar programs, are starting to take over the markets that the point and click site creators, (cannot call them developers, as they are not) think Dw and the old coding or 3rd party framework methods of building web sites should occupy, and such site creators are trying desperately to hold on to their clients, fortunatly they are failing because they cannot offer anything more than Muse at the price being asked.

                     

                    I say fortunately not to gloat, but simply in the hope that it will make people think about what they must offer clients, that programs like Muse cannot.

                     

                    New, scares many people especially when they cannot adapt. Ben has said many times in this forum that css grid layouts are the way forward, but now that they can be used, and the use has proven not so simple, we have had no feedback from him. I wonder if the next css layout method when it is announced will become the new, 'lets wait for that' feature.

                     

                    It may be worth those interested, looking in on the pre-release just to see what is happening and being discussed. There would be no requirement to join in, (nothing to join in with) or actually test Dw, but it would show you what i am complaining about.

                     

                    As for me, that glass of wine, with a good book and a chair by the river bank is calling .

                    • 7. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                      osgood_ Level 8

                      pziecina  wrote

                       

                       

                      New, scares many people especially when they cannot adapt. Ben has said many times in this forum that css grid layouts are the way forward, but now that they can be used, and the use has proven not so simple, we have had no feedback from him. I wonder if the next css layout method when it is announced will become the new, 'lets wait for that' feature.

                       

                       

                      People like you mention (I'm not naming names) will NOT move on until a framework or bit of software 'pulls' their strings. They will argue 'I want to wait until these techniques have been tried and tested or introduced by someone else because it feels safe or the right thing to do in terms of their workflow'. They will always be behind the curve as the framework or software restricts their development.

                       

                      BUT hey let's be honest old techniques are going to be around for the next 10 years and they will be perfectly capable of building 90% of what your ever likely to see pushed out on the web.......so who really cares? Only those will some kind of passion and desire to get a few steps ahead.

                       

                       

                      As for me, that glass of wine, with a good book and a chair by the river bank is calling .

                       

                      I'm just going to continue to do what I do for now and try and get better at it. I'm largely ignoring everything and using my own judgement as to what is going to benefit myself and my workflow. I have a good idea of what sort of websites I will be aksed to work on and the skills required to do that, that's all I need. I don't need to concern myself with anything else. For others it might be more complex because they will have different considerations depending on where they are in their career cycle and what the future is likely to hold, whether they are self-employed, employed etc will have great impact in what they will need to learn or be requested to learn to stay in a job.

                      • 8. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                        osgood_ Level 8

                        pziecina  wrote

                         

                         

                        As for me, that glass of wine, with a good book and a chair by the river bank is calling .

                         

                        I hate to turn down work if it still comes along. I'd rather the phone would stop ringing and the emails stopped arriving so the decision of when to get out is taken out of my hands....but yeah I do think a lot lately if I want to be doing this any longer. I think I have gotten as far as I am going to go, so its become less of a challenge these days and more of a chore.

                        • 9. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                          BenPleysier Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Paula,

                           

                          I am not ignoring this discussion, it is that I am enjoying a good book and a glass of 3-year old Storm Bay (Chile) Pinot Noir on the West Australian Coast. I promised my wife that I would leave my work behind.

                           

                          I hear what you are saying and I have been experimenting with Grid together with Flexbox in my spare time. To be honest, I cannot use the combination to its full extent in my production because it would take me too much time to code and test. I do use Flexbox where it makes sense, but that is where it will stay for some time to come.

                           

                          I have also read your other article in the ACP forum. My thoughts are that users of Dreamweaver that come to this forum only do so because they have a problem. There are many, many more users of Dreamweaver that never set foot in this forum. I come across them in various other discussion groups just like Al Sparber and the folks at DMXZone and Webassist do. I also have customers that use Dreamweaver and never set foot in this forum.

                           

                          My question is, at whom are you targeting these discussions/tutorials, is it the regulars, all 8 of them, or is it the person asking a once off question before disappearing into never never land.

                           

                          Mind you, I am not saying that we should not have these discussions, when it's all said and done, all 8 of us will be that much the wiser.

                          • 10. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                            pziecina Adobe Community Professional

                            A good glass of wine is my order of the day, not quite every day, but I'm working on that .

                             

                            I also post in other forums, but they are aimed at the corporate developer, and managers of large teams, the reason I also post here, is that in general such discussions do remain within the limited number of regular participants, and it is much easier to discuss something amongst 4-8 people, than it is amongst 20-30. With grids though, I hit the same problem as I had with flexbox a few years back, in that I could do it my way, but did not know if that was the best way, yes asking 20+ people how they would do it does provide a lot of feedback, the trouble is it can also be too much feedback.

                             

                            Such discussions as one on css shapes, i would not specifically actually target anyone, but i would often hope that the forum regulars provide the main interesing comments, that applies if i agree with that comment or not, and i will mark comments as helpfull even if i disagee, as it is often the feedback and differing views that i find helpfull.

                             

                            What does often bring me to start discussions, is that i know developers in the corporate and large e-commerce world, are often using a lot of the specs long before the small to medium site developer will even consider looking at them, let alone using them, and that no matter how i try, i simply do not understand the 'why It has become so'.

                             

                            It used to be that small or personal sites were the ones that first implemented new ways of doing anything, but since html5 became the love it or hate it, buzz word and way of working, it has changed to the small or personal site not doing anything that is not 'done' for them, or that is much beyond using css 2 and html4 capabilities. This to me has given every such site the same behaviours and 'feel' when using. Then the developers of such sites, (yes i do talk to other developers in person) complain that work is getting harder to find.

                             

                            Maybe it is nostalgia that makes me keep trying to bring Dw back to what it used to be, and for trying to do that and complaining that 'no one is listening' (i won't say who ) i do not apologise for. An example of how i used to use Dw would be in CS6, when i would share the screen with other developers, and could quickly put together a demo of a concept that i was working on, then simply select live view to show it. This way of working is simply no longer possible anymore, and before anyone says that is just me, it is not. I know a lot of people who used to use Dw in a similar way, but no longer use Dw because it does not support the features required, and makes it harder to use.

                             

                            In the last pre-release, it was said that they are trying to win back users who have abandoned Dw, but everyone i talk to outside of Adobe supporters, and who did look at what was being offered, came to the same conclussions i hold, on their own. It's no good making statments, such as the 'win back users' if they then forget that the web has moved on, and the basic requirements are not met.

                            • 11. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                              pziecina Adobe Community Professional

                              Hi Ben,

                               

                              I looked at the forums of the 3 main extension builders today, and comparing them to this forum, the activity is much less, and they are mainly for problems with or modifying their own extensions, which is as one would expect, and are not as extensive and wide ranging as the impression i got from some posts about the activity in those forums posted here. That is with one exception and that is for php questions, though the php questions do tend to be product related, more than i would have thought are for pre php 7.

                              • 12. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                                nigelfreeney

                                I'm new to flexbox. After reading about how simple it can make responsive design layouts I instantly thought this is the right direction for me. However, despite it's wide support as a cross-browser solution Dreamweaver 2017 doesn't support it. I am retrofitting a non-responsive website and it is going well... but it could be even easier if DW 2017 was able to show my design in the Design view.

                                 

                                Dreamweaver does not display <divs> with their flexbox attributes they are simply flat-lined across the page. This is clearly an elementary step forward in design and I am gobsmacked that Adobe has not managed to implement support for this.flexbox-design-prototype-correctly-displayed-in-browser.gif

                                How the layout appears in browser preview...

                                 

                                no-support-for-flexbox-in-design-view.gif

                                How the layout looks in Design View in DW 2017!

                                 

                                This really cannot be the best that Adobe is able to do. It would be impressive if you told me that the next update would include this missing flexbox support

                                • 13. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                                  pziecina Adobe Community Professional

                                  Dreamweavers live view does support flexbox, but that is all there is that is any use, though code view 'sort of' has support, but not x-browser unless one uses sass/less, and some of it allows the user to enter incorectly formatted property values. The lack of a stand alone autoprefixer for all css that could use such a feature, (not just flexbox) to me is, (repeating my thoughts) a complete load of rubbish, as a separate and user definable autoprefixer should be available.

                                   

                                  As for Dw supporting flexbox better, i have been asking since CS6, and so far nothing.

                                  • 14. Re: Flexbox, css grid layouts, css shapes, etc.
                                    osgood_ Level 8

                                    How the layout looks in Design View in DW 2017!

                                     

                                    Not really put much serious emphasis on DW Design View for a few years myself personally. It never was very reliable although I think Adobe try and improve it with each release but its debatable whether it can keep pace with an ever changing playing field. I don't use DW a lot these days but when I do I find Design View useful for getting around the code quicky, anything else is a bonus.