12 Replies Latest reply on May 7, 2017 6:51 AM by RjL190365

    4k editing without proxies on this laptop?

    johnw72229102

      Hi everyone. What do you think of this.

      Dell Inspiron 15.6" Laptop - Intel Core i7 - 16GB Memory - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050Ti - 1TB Hard Drive + 128GB SSD Black …

       

      We are looking at two hours of 4k, no proxies, with titles and color grading. Do you think it will be fluid with a smooth editing and playing back and moving things on the timeline, or not?

       

      also how about in 720p proxies. Will things move fluid then even when I will throw titles and maybe some effects?

       

      Does it tax the system to create proxies while editing on the timeline? If yes that is why I don't want any prizes. That faster way to edit possible.

       

      Also, very roughly what duration of exporting are we looking at? duration for both exporting in 4k and hd so that I can see my options.

       

      Thank you everyone.

       

      P.s. Footage from g7.

        • 1. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
          Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

          I doubt very much success with any hard disk drive for your projects and media,  You really need two SATA III SSD's or one super speed M2. PCIe x4 SSD  

           

          That i7-7600U processor is only 2-cores and is totally inadequate for 4K

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
            Horshack Level 4

            I would go with a Dell XPS 9550 or 9560 instead. Quad core i7, wide-gamut 4K display, lots of memory and storage options. If you're patient you can get an open-box 9550 with 32GB memory/1TB SSD from B&H for $1400.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
              Peru Bob Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Moved to the Hardware Forum.

              • 4. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Bill is the expert on hardware in real-world tested work with PrPro. And he's got a solid direct answer for you.

                 

                The nature of your question makes me wonder if you understand much about the media and the hardware, and how an NLE is not even comparable to a video player.

                 

                What cameras will you be using? Nearly all DSLR/Mirror-less cameras and many of the "only a few thousand USD" cameras record to what's called long-GOP interframe codecs ... the mov & mp4 set. Most AVCHD also as I understand that implementation. It's a very effective way to get a lot of data recorded to the camera card.

                 

                It uses I-frames along with p and b frames. I frames are actually complete image frames, p frames are only a data-set of the pixels that have changed from the last frame, and b frames are mixed pixel sets of the data that's changed from the previous frame, AND that is changed from the next frame also. Typically it's set for between 9 and 14 frames in between I frames.

                 

                Your CPU takes the first I frame, de-compresses it, passes it along and stores it to RAM. Calls up the data set from the matrix for the next frame ... recalls the image from RAM, computes changes, creates that complete frame, passes it along & stores to RAM. That's with p frames, with the b frames, it has to have both the frame before AND the frame after for comparison/computation.

                 

                This process is incredibly intensive for the CPU/RAM, cores & threads subsystems. It's bad enough in 1920x1080, but in 4K, this throws a ton of work on the CPU just for playback.

                 

                An NLE like PrPro has a ton more going on besides playback, so that's where the difference between a player and NLE comes in. Players only need get enough image buffered into RAM to play back smoothly. NLE's have to do that ... plus all the vastly greater work of assembling a video from bits & pieces of clips all over a computer, apply effects, speed-ramps, color changes, all of that ... audio changes also ... and you want that played back in real-time while you're editing.

                 

                That's a very hard order for a well-designed desktop computer, and as Bill says, that laptop won't even come close.

                 

                That's where the use of proxies come in ... and unfortunately, most new to the craft think the file size of the proxies is what helps ... which is wrong. It's the codec type & settings of the proxies that matters. You need an intraframe codec like Cineform. The built in Cineform proxy presets work very well ... use one maybe 1/4 resolution of your original media by frame-size. They will work for editing purposes "like butter" as another regular on here says. But they will take some space, hence Bill's comment about multiple and very specific SSD drives via USB3.

                 

                And don't even think about trying 4k with a two-core CPU. Also, with cores, "logical" cores don't actually matter, only the number of physical (real) cores ... counts.

                 

                Neil

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                  RjL190365 Level 5

                  I just looked at that laptop, and if one looks at the specs it actually has an i7-7700HQ quad-core CPU, not an i7-7600U dual-core CPU. Unfortunately, that laptop might not have an m.2 PCIe slot for any faster SSDs, and the apparently sole SATA 6.0 Gbps connection is occupied by that hybrid drive which consists of a relatively slow SSD and a very typical 5400 RPM hard drive. That's not going to be anywhere near enough for proxy-less 4K editing, and with the as-purchased disk configuration it is barely sufficient for even 1080p.

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                    johnw72229102 Level 1

                    Thank you everybody. So the processor being a quad core with hyperthread is ok?

                     

                    So my questions is...will that laptop edit smoothly without the need for proxies if i use an external ssd for the raw files? Is the existing processor, memory card and ram enough for a smooth experience? And very importantly, a two hour average project (few titles, color grading, no more than a few 3D animations and 3d titles) how long is it going to take to export In hd. 4k will be the input files but will export in hd. Roughly the duration becuase I know that is higky different from project to project. Just an estimate. From x hours to x hours.

                     

                    Thanks so much everyone. 

                    • 7. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                      Horshack Level 4

                      I wouldn't call editing in 4K smooth. Even on my i7-4770k desktop with SSDs and a GTX 970, playback is a bit laggy - I get about a 1.5 second playback delay when doing a preview on a clip that has no effects/adjustments.

                       

                      As for render time, I just did a test of exporting 4K H.264 30fps sequence to 1080P H.264 10Mbps CBR using ME's maximum render quality and it rendered at 1x realtime on my quad-core i7-4770k (1:30 clip took 1:30 to render). No effects/adjustments.

                      • 8. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                        Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                        Never with that inferior hybrid drive

                         

                        Sorry about that my search for a 2.8GHz 7th generation mobile processor got the wrong info.

                        • 9. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                          R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          You're expecting a ton from that rig, and I have no clue why you're trying to avoid the use of proxies ... on a low-powered laptop no less ... to edit 4k long-GOP media.

                           

                          You're welcome to do so, of course. For everything you can think of, no matter who answers, what the answer is, always test it thoroughly before committing to professional work ... and deadlines. Yourself ... on your machinery.

                           

                          That said ... my desktop is far more powerful that your laptop, it has a fast recent-generation SSD for system, and I use an m.2 and several fast Samsung EVO SSD's in my processing chain. In fact, every drive in use for editing is a newest-generation SSD on direct connections with the mobo.

                           

                          I always proxy 4k ... I even proxy many 1080p projects, as I tend to throw a fair amount of color corrections & such at a sequence. I use Cineform proxy codecs, at 1/4 frame-size for 4k media, and 1/2 frame-size for 1080. A few 1080 projects, I've even used 1080 transcodes for editing ... the Cineform just edits so nicely.

                           

                          The only difference in PrPro's new proxy setup between using the original media and the proxies is the proxy media plays back so much smoother. IF you choose a proper preset. A number of people have been on here angry that  their proxies didn't play any smoother than their original media. Well ... they'd chosen an H.264, ergo long-GOP codec ... well duh, no, that's not going to edit any easier than the original media. Their complaint about using Cineform or DNxHD was "but those files are so big compared to H.264". Again, well, duh ... because the intraframe codecs store a "real" complete frame for every frame ... which is why they play back so much better!

                           

                          And with switching from original to proxies and proxies to originals is only a click of an icon ... which you can do while playing back even ... I can't understand any hesitancy to use them. You want to see something in full detail? One click. You want better playback? One click.

                           

                          Your mileage will vary, naturally ... just ... I don't think most of us with more experience see that laptop you're planning on using doing seamless no-lag editing of 4k long-GOP media.

                           

                          Neil

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                            johnw72229102 Level 1

                            Thanks a lot guys. Very helpful info. I guess there are few questions left then.

                             

                            If if I edit in proxies while  will be transcoding to proxy will I be able to edit? And how long roughly will it take to make the proxy for let's say 1 hour of footage?

                             

                            if it takes 1x for the clip to render without effects and color grading and titles and such then how long would you assume that it will take with all the aforementioned additions?

                             

                            Will i I be able to use the laptop in youtube and wordpres and word while it renders or will it be quite laggy becuase of the rendering?

                             

                            Thank you guys. You are really helping me here.

                            • 11. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                              R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              PrPro will bring up Media Encoder to make the proxies, and if you've got it set to run in the background (pausing while you're doing something in PrPRo) you can edit while they're being created.

                               

                              For me, with a chunk of 4k, I typically start that at the end of the day and just let it process over-night. Or, if I've some errands to run, or it's time for lunch ... as it can take a couple hours on my rig to batch a ton of 4k proxies.

                               

                              You'll need to establish realistic render expectations with that machine, just do a test bit of the media you'll use, with the effects you'll use applied ... maybe a one-minute sequence. Export & time.

                               

                              Again, a lot of people plan to do their exports overnight.

                               

                              Neil

                              • 12. Re: 4k editing without proxies on this laptop?
                                RjL190365 Level 5

                                Looking at that laptop again, and it appears to be from the Inspiron 15 7000 series. That laptop has an m.2 slot – but it supports only SATA III signaling. It does not support PCI-e signaling. There are a limited number of (mostly cheaper) m.2 SATA SSDs that will work with that m.2 slot.