Your problem is quite clear.
You assume your iMac and the display and subsystems are showing "correct" dynamic range and color. This is NOT an accurate assumption. You can't get "there" with a totally uncalibrated amateur system.
Thousands of people working daily in professional suites with properly calibrated systems and high end calibrated broadcast monitors have no trouble with this.
Their hardware and practices are the key.
Those who can't find a way around this .... don't.
And saying that QuickTime (with the rather obvious DR/gamma it induces differently from any professional player) is accurate is also in error.
You need to learn more about professional standards and color practices. Not to say that PrPro is perfect ... just that it isn't the biggest problem you face.
I am using a 5K Retina iMac for my very high-end professional editing work, as do many of my other highly priced colleagues in town (Los Angeles). My work shows up on the big screen as well as on all networks and the internet. So naturally, my iMac's display is fully and professionally color calibrated and it's anything but an "amateur" system. As Apple said this week - "professionals love our iMacs:...
What I and many others are experiencing has nothing to do with calibration. If the same thing looks drastically different inside Premiere and outside of it - I could be viewing this on a 100 dollar cheap monitor and it's still the same problem we're dealing with.
So please don't lecture me about professional standards. That's not helpful at all.
And you dismissing Quicktime as not professional is also very ill informed. I have been working with all the top post and finishing houses here in L.A. for 18 years, and all we've been ever used to transfer high-end footage is PreRes Quicktime Movies.
I made a number of assumptions based on some of the comments in your original post compared with a predominant group of comments that we've had here from other with iMacs and QuickTime. Clearly, they were not accurate in your case, and I owe you a very direct and full apology.
QuickTime player as opposed to the QuickTime codec in ProRes are very different things. QuickTime player as distributed for PC's is a rather flawed player. ProRes is of course a very good pro editing/intermediary codec, even if Apple as always is a rather jealous kindergartener about "their" stuff. So understand that when many of us outside the Macosphere talk QuickTime we mean the player.
Where we do get down to is the iMac itself ... I have heard (as of yesterday) there is a possible issue specifically with certain iMac models with certain GPU's. A couple people I know running several systems have gotten odd results with that model.
Maybe I can find more about that and pass on which models may be having an issue ... or perhaps Kevin Monahan would know?
I really appreciate your most recent comments. And I thank you in advance for trying to help me with this.
If the iMac’s GPU is the problem, that would be impossible to solve (other than getting a different machine). I do know that a lot of my colleagues in various companies around town use iMacs as their “professional editing systems” - especially with Premiere Pro.
Here’s what I did experiment with: I switched my project to all 3 rendering engines that are available to me - OpenGL, Metal and Software only - and I exported a master quicktime with each engine. It was the same gamma shift result outside of Premiere. Wouldn’t “Software Only” take the iMac’s GPU out of the equation?
I am aware of the Quicktime Player as being not up to professional standards. But I am seeing the exact same behavior with TIFF exports. Now that has nothing to do with Quicktime.
Something in the Premiere Export/Render engine that doesn’t play nicely with my setup. - I do not have any of these problems with After Effects exports - also as ProRes Quicktime Movies.
So here's the latest development:
I just tested bars and tone in a sequence and output that as a ProRes quicktime.
No color or gamma shift.
So it has to do with the material I am using. I know that material was exported from a Final Cut Pro 7 system as a ProRes file and given to me. Maybe that's where the problem lies...
Your last comment sounds ... most likely?
One of the decisions made a long time ago with PrPro was to simply base it around Rec709, and without the color space control settings that AfterEffects and Resolve and many other of the pro-level apps have. In most situations this works quite well for "standard" work. In some cases, not so well.
Like many users, I've suggested via the ol' Feature Request forms that the PrPro users be given their choice of color settings. Especially with ACES, HDR, and several of the other new-fangled things becoming more and more common, I think this should be a top priority.
So ... I'd suggest filing a bug report variant about the iMac issue, you've certainly got some supporting material. And file a Feature Request variant for getting user color controls into PrPro.
Now that's another puzzler!
I wonder ... if you transcoded a clip via Media Encoder, would the clip of media play nicely?
I’ll try that when I have a second. It’s worth a shot. I am a recent Premiere Pro convert - so my question is - does Premiere play nicely with clips being replaced? In other words, what’s the best workflow for transcoding material without losing any of my work?
I've not done a lot of replacement, but I know of course that for say the round-trip Event out to Resolve & back, it's been very commonly done. As I recall the key is to keep the names the same ... so if say you simply transcoded with exact names to a different folder, and while PrPro is closed, removed the old files and replaced with the new ones I think that would work.
As always, I'd test with a few clips first ... but I've done this with some phone media that I first converted to CFR with Media Encoder, then after testing that media versus setting up a custom conversion in HandBrake, decided to use HandBrake conversions instead.
And also with some other media over the years. Normally it's worked simply.
Thank you, I’ll give this a shot.
Best wishes! We all have work that needs getting out ...
Did anyone find a solution to this desaturation problem? I find it unbelievable that this issue even exists! how can something that has been graded and exported look completely different when viewed on different players..?
Surely the solution isn't cranking up the grade so it looks correct in Vimeo/QT (VLC seems to display colours as they are in premiere).... What happens when I supply a client with the finished export file, without knowing where it's going to be played back?
how can something that has been graded and exported look completely different when viewed on different players..?
Because the players don't use the same internal settings for dynamic range & gamma ... that's been explained many, many times.
Surely the solution isn't cranking up the grade so it looks correct in Vimeo/QT (VLC seems to display colours as they are in premiere).
No ... the only problems come in with say QuickTime on some computers and YouTube for some people uploading/viewing.
So I never use QuickTime player for anything anyway. Potplayer & VLC do a better job. And ... my uploads to YouTube have been without issue, as they are for many. Which is one of the things making the whole YouTube uploads so frustrating. For some users, uploads to YouTube are displayed in a 16-235 dynamic range plus altered-gamma that would go with that ancient "standard". Which ... sucks.
What happens when I supply a client with the finished export file, without knowing where it's going to be played back?
A colorist wrote an article about this problem. They use many-thousand-dollar monitors run from external boxes with LUTs controlling the entire image to grade. Most of the ones I know own a couple grand or more in calibration gear, which they only use for maintenance checks on their monitors, as they have their setups professionally calibrated at least annually if not semi-annually.
It's natural ... that auto-QC device at the network "sniffs" through their projects as they come in, and find one pixel out of saturation or dynamic range, the whole program's rejected. They have to do this.
However, as soon as it's broadcast or sent out via satellite, there's no control of how any user will "see" that program/project. His personal example ... his grandmother lives in Wisconsin or someplace. He was visiting her and saw a program or commercial he'd graded show up on her TV, and it was ... green. As was everything on her tv, it was all off way green.
So all that work on QC is needed ... but there's no way whatever to control the user's actual view, either from broadcast/satellite work or web-casts. No two TVs or monitors will ever look exactly the same, let alone across systems the vast majority of which have never been calibrated at all.
And remember, TVs, monitors, and video players are all shipped, designed to muck with the signal in order to "enhance the viewer's experience".
There's a quote from Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings ... I think it's in one of the movies ... "That way lies madness!" It's a pretty fair statement about trying to control the end-user experience in any video work.
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Premiere actually does grade you-get-what-you-see in sRGB if your monitor is also calibrated sRGB. premiere will ignore any other color profiles. quicktime is not sRGB(0-255 gamma 2.2). quicktime(depending on the version), RGB values are 16-235 with various gamma styles like 1.8 or 2.4.
Furthermore, if you colorgrade in Premiere and your monitor is not sRGB(instead P3 or adobe RGB), you will get incorrect grades because you are grading in the wrong native color profile. VLC can match premiere perfectly if you set its video output to OpenGL. Also, nvidia control panel needs to be set to 0-255 so that your gfx card doesn't change your RGB values in media playback.
Adobe Media encoder can render video range(16-235) or full range(0-255) as well. Resolve has FCP legacy feature.
external displays are still limited by adobe's mercury transmit protocol that is hard coded to rec. 709 so you'll need to match that too.
I'm having the same problem and it's driving me nuts. When I export and play the exported file with the Quicktime Player, it's like my grade is gone. If I play it with VLC, it's there just like the original. When I upload to Vimeo, it's desaturated on their player again.
I'm not a techie, but I assumed that the information would be baked-in so it would play the same in Quicktime as VLC, but it's like some of the information is unreadable by the player and it's stripping out my grade.
I've tried transcoding and anything else I could think of or that I've read in forums, but nothing is working. I don't know what to do. Switch to FCPX? This is crazy.
I can't promise this will work for you, but many people have had luck using this LUT I made for youtube/vimeo.
64 cube iridas lut for burning in darker 16-235 from 0-255 for youtube upload. it darkens image, then youtube/vimeo re-lightens again.
it doesn't work with adjustment layers directly
you have to use it in the dropdown for the export in adobe media encoder. or you can NEST it first.
its a premiere bug. also it needs to be copied in both premiere-lumetri-technical and adobe media encoder-lumetri-technical
Chris and R Neil, thanks so much for the responses..
First and foremost, Neil, I'm in total agreeance that one the export leaves your hands, you're at the peril of outside factors effecting your work.. but I had an "AHA!" moment when I checked a video file on QT & VLC on my Mac Book Pro this time...rather than my iMac... and the colour difference was SO MUCH less apparent.
Taking Chris' info, I started to question if it was the MBP display profile, in comparison to my iMac. Come to think of it I never noticed the colour difference on my 2014 iMac (that was stolen. now have a 2017 5k machine). Although with my graphics card (Radeon Pro 580 8192 MB) I have no option of changing gamma settings...I started to toggle between monitor profiles and noticed that on "Apple RGB", "Rec. ITU-R BT.709-5" and "sRGB IEC61966-2.1" that the terrible colour/contrast difference between the same video in QT & VLC side by side almost disappears.
Chris, is this what you was making reference too? Using either one of these compared to the "iMac" profile in my opinion is a great improvement by eye..but is there one i should be using over the other?
For video use, take the " ... BT709 ..." option.
I started to toggle between monitor profiles and noticed that on "Apple RGB", "Rec. ITU-R BT.709-5" and "sRGB IEC61966-2.1" that the terrible colour/contrast difference between the same video in QT & VLC side by side almost disappears.
In theory the display profile should always be set to whatever is closest to the actual gamut of the display, ideally a profile generated for that specific display. If you choose another display profile, test your video output carefully to make sure the problem is really solved, because this isn't supposed to be an ideal solution. And it won't be as good as previewing on a calibrated external video monitor.
The following note is more for those who might read this thread in the future: Don't bother with the "Apple RGB" profile. It's a legacy profile that's only included for compatibility with old images. It represents the gamut of the 13" Apple monitor — a Sony Trinitron CRT — that was sort of a de facto standard in the 1990s and probably influenced the creation of sRGB. But Apple RGB doesn't represent anything we're using today.
ok, so scrap "Apple RGB"... got it.
"Rec. ITU-R BT.709-5" looks to really crush the blacks and makes it a little too contrasty I found Neil.
would "sRGB IEC61966-2.1" be a safe one to go for? it looks good by eye and the same footage across different players looks allot more balanced, how it did on my previous iMac. Chris, was this what you mentioned above?
Conrad C, "Generic RGB Profile" also looks pretty good...this an option?
Thanks in advanced guys... I appreciate that it may not simply be what looks good by eye, for example Conrad C saying that "Apple RGB" is an out dated profile. But I feel that this may be the only work around to this annoying problem on my computer at least.
Conrad C, "Generic RGB Profile" also looks pretty good...this an option?
According to a page on the Apple Developer website, Generic RGB is based on “P22 phosphors, D65 white point and 1.8 gamma.” P22 phosphors were used in CRTs.
The Apple ColorSync Utility (included with every Mac) shows that Generic RGB is mostly similar to Rec. 709, sRGB, and Apple RGB, so if one of those profiles doesn't work, choosing another from that family probably won't change matters much. You're right, it's just a workaround. Ultimately we need Premiere Pro to support alternate working RGB spaces.
Well it looks like I'm now back to square one..
When I set the profile to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 although it looked to balance out the same video between VLC/QT player side by side... my screen looked over saturated and crushed for the rest of the time when browsing the net for example (something my brother picked up on straight away..). So in actual fact the native iMac profile does give the best image day by day on this 5k iMac.
Like most, I feel that the issue has beat me.. I still can't work out if it's software related or the calibration of the screen.
I guess my last question is, which do I trust for my grade? Do i grade it to look good in Premiere and then leave my fate to the gods after export!? OR do I over compensate my grade to work with the issue? It's just so frustrating that the problem isn't apparent on my Mac Book Pro...which leads me to believe its related to the 5k iMac screen.
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I guess my last question is, which do I trust for my grade? Do i grade it to look good in Premiere and then leave my fate to the gods after export!? OR do I over compensate my grade to work with the issue?
I think the "ideal" answer is the same industry-standard answer Neil suggested earlier: Connect a Rec.709 calibrated broadcast monitor to the Mac and grade on that.
That can be an expensive option, so the next best and much cheaper way to go would probably be to get a common but high quality sRGB-based monitor, connect it to the iMac, and calibrate that (to sRGB).
Either way you would have a display that is actually producing sRGB/Rec.709, so in theory that would provide a grading environment consistent with Premiere Pro is currently set up for.
It's just so frustrating that the problem isn't apparent on my Mac Book Pro...
What year MacBook Pro is it? If it's a newer MacBook Pro with the P3 gamut display, I would expect it to have the same problem as the iMac. But if it's an older MacBook Pro with the sRGB-based display, then I would expect it to look more consistent inside and outside Premiere Pro.
"That can be an expensive option, so the next best and much cheaper way to go would probably be to get a common but high quality sRGB-based monitor, connect it to the iMac, and calibrate that (to sRGB)."
Ok... but once I grade footage that's being displayed on an external sRGB monitor... won't it just look desaturated again once I play this on the iMac screen on say QT player..? (wouldn't this also be the case when anyone else plays the footage with the same hardware set up at their own workstations?)
The thing is, even if i open something up directly off my SD card, it will look desaturated on QT compared to VLC...that footage hasn't even come close to premier!
It's like my screen has two different calibration settings!!...what is the root of the cause? do I just take my iMac back or sack off premier!? sorry for the frustration, it's driving me nuts and a little out my technical comfort zone. Had my previous iMac never been stolen, i wouldn't be facing this issue with this replacement (newer) machine. And yes, the MPB that doesn't seem to show the problem is a 2012 model.
Thank again for the help.
Think it back a little further, please.
You watch material on that screen from YouTube, Vimeo, and other web services, right?
Nearly everything you watch that has been professionally produced was shot & graded on sRGB/BT(Rec).709.
How's it look?
Did this work for you because I have tried that and it seems to me even after I upload the color still looks washed out on other devices say phone or another computer when uploaded. It changes how I see the colors on my computer but I don't think it changes how its encoded. Let me know if you found a fix for this! I just got a iMac and have not been able to upload anything because of this problem. It's just pointless spending so much time grading and it doesn't even make a dent after export.
What's your monitor, the color space, and calibration profile?
Some of the new Macs use other color spaces, and PrPro unfortunately is only built around Rec709 standards which are sRGB ... Which needs more options.
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Any Quicktime export from Premiere will add the nclc colr atoms in to the movie header this is part of the QuickTime specification. This is all based on the codec type. ProRes and h264 all expect the images to be BT709 so will add tHD color metadata. These tell Apples colorsync what to do with the image based on the colorprofile you have set on the monitor. Quicktime will always use this to determine how to display the movie so if you monitor is sRGB it will try and map the BT709 to sRGB . Additionally some codecs do not display correctly in Quicktime 7. DNxHD for one has RGB levels of 16-235 Video legal, computer monitors are designed to display expanded range 0-255 so any video legal material if not properly mapped will look washed out as black is at 16 not 0. Most players, editing and grading applications completely ignore this metadata and map the ranges correctly and rightly so and expect your monitor to be calibrated according to what you want to output. Premiere is no exception and same goes for Avid. Quicktime 7 or X should never be used to judge colour because of these short comings. You can use an application called JES Extensify to remove these added metadat and then it should look the same as what you see in Premiere and other players such as VLC. QuickTime sucks and reallu should be ditched.
Markus did you solve the color shift issue? Despite all the replies I do not see a clear answer.
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What trouble are you having? Displaying properly in Quicktime, which "simon..." had a very helpful answer on, or in uploads to YouTube?
Many of us upload to YouTube without troubles ... and it seems that depending on what YouTube does with the video, can be the issue. On first uploading, YouTube uses one codec, then re-encodes to a different one sometime soon to a few hours later (for many of us). For some reason, it can stick in that first codec without re-encoding for some.
That first codec on uploading may likely show the media as 16-235 and at gamma maybe 2.0/2.2. After re-encoding it goes to 0-255/2.2/2.4, which is what 'we' expect.
If you have media in YouTube that's stuck at the 16-235 setting, go into your channel's controls, select the clip, then select 'retouch' but save it without doing anything.
YouTube within a couple hours will re-encode and it should appear properly.
If QuickTime player, first ... avoid it when possible, it's a bugger and NOT cross-platform any more (by direct action from Apple itself, being the jealous kindergartners they are). Second, you may be able to get it more inline if you've an Nvidia card by going into the card's settings Video tab, select to have the card control everything rather than the player, and set the card to everything at 0-255. It works for some.
There are two areas I use my videos. One is on YouTube and the other is for website sliders in WordPress. To be honest my area of expertise is in print - I use EIZO monitors but they have been calibrated to match print specifications. My need is to just make sure the colours look like what I see in Premier (mac). Would you be kind and guide me with the settings in JES. I export as mp4 using quicktime h.264. From what I understood UTUBE can be handle colour shift by running a retouch. What setting do I need to do in JES?
Thank you in advance.
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Go to the Color settings and tick allow changes. Remove both the Ganma and Color. Goto Manual and then press update to apply the changes.
Hi, thnx for the possible fix, but I tried everything and can't find the answer to:
which color setting are you talking about?
May sound stupid but sorry for that, yeah?
Hi all, so i have also had this problem for a while and what i found that exporting directly out of premiere CC18 reproduces very simmilar what is out of the monitor as opposed to using media encoder. I too tried changing all the other suggested settings and they didn't work. So while exporting out of PP is inconvenient ads i can't continue to work on things, i do have an export with better colour. So i hope this helps and one day someone has the correct answer to this.
I'm exporting in H.264
What did you use to view the exported files, re-importing into PrPro or a different player?
This was just viewing them in finder. They play in quicktime the same as the images.
So is the issue with the QuickTime integration in finder?
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Those are not color-managed apps at all, PrPro is. VLC and Potplayer are much better at responding appropriately to Rec709 standards than the OS player or Qt.
On PC's with Nvidia cards, there is a place in the setup for the cards where one can set the dynamic range as 0-255 and also decree that Nvidia should 'rule' how things are displayed, rather than the video player. That helps for some people. I don't know about Nvidia cards on a Mac.
So the issue in reality is PrPro is applying pro-standard Rec709 to the files, but your computer isn't really set for Rec709 I'm guessing. Do you know whether your monitor is set for sRGB, A-RGB, or something else? And of course, do you have any puck/software calibration tool available?
Thank you for you all who have particalped in this topic when I’m getting crazy about exactly the same issue.
I’ve learnt a lot from your conversation although the problem still exisits and i‘m trying to get used of it.