You are correct, however most people do not view on VLC and web browsers are also displaying the same issue. Either way - if you cannot change the display colours of the Program viewer on Adobe then you cannot grade correctly without an external monitor - this means expensive one stop shop solutions (ie the iMac pro) doesn’t work by itself as an editing tool - something which I would think Apple would not be that happy about.
Apple doesn't ship their monitors in THE profile that's the professional video standard worldwide ... sRGB/Rec 709.
So because they ship outside of the standard, everyone else on the planet is supposed to jump?
And not a viewer on the planet gives puck about how it looks on your screen, and they'll never have a clue.
So ... for certain, most editors/colorists/fx folks would love to have more control over color management in PrPro. However ... unless you're delivering for certain festivals that use a particular space/profile, or for actual full 1,000 NITS HDR for someone (starting, but not very common) ... any pro use is going to be Rec709. ALL b-cast content is Rec 709. Period. (Except for the rare HDR b-cast content.)
PrPro is sticking to the current worldwide professional standard. You may not like it, but that's why they are. Publicly stated.
And if you 'publish' in anything else, the only guarantee you have is that on a monitor in the same space as yours with certain viewers/browsers whatever, your content will look something similar to your original view of it. Never exactly the same, that never happens.
And on everything else, to those viewers it will look ... odd. Because "odd" is defined by something that doesn't look like the professionally produced material they view on that screen. They have no freaking clue whatever how it looks on your screen. It's only compared to other professionally created content they can compare.
1 person found this helpful
that won't help you if you use mercury transmit. it is rec. 709 as well. as posted above, if you want to use a P3/Adobe RGB calibration or any non 2.2 gamma, you have to use a transform lut from them to a rec. 709 gamma 2.2. D65 white point.(I'd recommend including your self calibration inside the transform lut so you don't need two luts)
Can someone please advise: This is a screen capture of a project. As you can see, the exported preview through AME seems to have a gamma shift and result in being more contrasted. I have tried all the preview settings in the project settings (currently set to prores 422).
I can understand if I was using a different monitor that it could have been an issue of monitor calibration. But that on the same screen (LG wide).
Even after re-importing into premiere, and comparing side by side, there seems to be a slight magenta shift in the exported video (h264). The difference can not only be seen on a split screen, but on the scopes as well. Also I have noticed that the exported result end up clipping in the highlights, where as in my project it was not.
It doesn´t matter to me. I expect to have the same colors I have in Premiere before and after exporting the video. I do social media content and I can not believe how a simple app can deliver better colors than this software.
I see that it is not an isolated problem, a lot of users are having it too. The worst part is that there is no right answer that can solve the problem.
I hate washed colors.
"The worst part" is that the 'simple' apps don't color manage. Chrome & Safari browsers and QuickTime all either ignore color management or screw them up. YouTube ... when it does the full double-encode process it does at times, gets the color management right. But sometimes, it ... for whatever reason ... only does the initial re-encode on upload, and unless you manually trigger the second by going into your channel and selecting the clip, choosing the "edit" option, then save without doing anything ... it screws up the color management.
And every screen your media will ever be watched on will be different than the one you made it on. Some with other color profiles/spaces, some in bright environments or dark environments that make the gamma look off, most just because the screen isn't profiled nor in the proper profile for video standards to begin with.
Sorry, that's not PrPro's fault, nor even the fault of the users or anyone. It's just Life as it is. If you think just because something looks exactly one way on your screen, you should be able to make it look just that way everywhere else ... you're not at all understanding how any of this actually works.
The only way folks out 'in the wild' will think your stuff is well-cooked is if it relatively looks like the professionally produced things they see on their screens. So if you don't produce close to standards, yours will look different than pro media ... moviers & tv shows. Period. On everything other than your own screen.
Here's a question,
Would purchasing a good quality rec.709 PC monitor and connecting that to
my Imac help? The intention being to drag the panel that i am grading on,
off the imac screen and onto the 2nd monitor?? I know it won't compare to a
£2-3k broadcast monitor, but it should eradicate the conflict between Prem
and the wide gamut imac screen no?
On 28 February 2018 at 07:52, R Neil Haugen <email@example.com>
Yea, it would probably help quite a bit. I've had some long email discussions with the head of color for PrPro (and maybe Ae also ... ?). I got both rather definitive answers as to what PrPro does ... and doesn't ... do. One thing he noted specifically, is that although PrPro is designed to be used in a totally hardware-managed color management system for broadcast use, if the user can set up a system to show what PrPro is doing properly, and can also see what it will show like on the systems their viewers will use, one can go a long way to getting the viewer's viewing conditions met.
Such that if your viewers are going to view on un-managed computer screens in bright environments like offices, making sure your viewing or at least a testing station mimics that ... un-managed computer screen in a bright office. Not at all a "broadcast" setup but ... one that will work.
PrPro naturally takes codecs that are both internally at video levels (16-235) and data or "full" (0-255) and displays them as full. Which is actually appropriate, as fully managed systems (like Resolve) will show them that way also. But it's not what non-managed players will necessarily do.
And different codecs are designed assuming different things. DNxHR/444-12 bit, for instance, is an RGB codec. Many codecs are listed in their internals as sRGB. They aren't the same ... well, and some codecs & apps don't list the 'base' of the codec or pay attention to it.
For YouTube uploads, DNxHD/R in mxf will upload, it's a bigger file ... but YouTube typically respects color of that and does its double encode properly. My YouTube uploads in mp4 have been fine ... but many get the washed out junk. Either switching to the DNx/mxf or doing the edit/save routine in YouTube can get around most troubles.
Last ... when you do 'test' yours on a screen, remember the only absolute there is: everything is relative!
Don't just look at your own ... look at something from a movie or tv show that you know is the originally professionally done (not a re-grab thing) media ... and yours. How do they compare in that browser or player? That's the only comparison that applies, as outside color managed apps on color-managed systems, the only key is relativity. How it looks 'out there' compared to on your screen is out of your control.
Neil, with all due respect.. I'm going to say what ALLOT of people keep
repeating... we are not complaining about what our videos look like "out
there"... we're complaining about how things look in and out of Premiere ON
OUR VERY OWN SCREENS. I'm having to use a LUT to gestimate and balance out
what Prem is showing compared to the raw footage's actual
colour/contrast...grade, export, view on a
player...criticize...re-grade/tweak...re-export...repeat repeat repeat...
it's a massive pain!
On 28 February 2018 at 17:45, R Neil Haugen <firstname.lastname@example.org>
That's been covered in great detail above. And in other threads.
You're comparing the results of different apps with and without color management on systems with at times not the perfect color setups to begin with.
And blame PrPro for all "errors" in the differences you see between all the other apps.
I don't see any logic there.
On my Win10 rig, an export in mp4 looks one way in PrPro, VLC, and Potplayer. Pretty close but a little less contrasty in WinMedia player. Lower gamma (brighter mids) and less (apparent) saturation in QuickTime player. Uploaded to YouTube, it looks pretty close but not exactly the same in Firefox. In Chrome & Safari, looks more like the QuickTime version on my screen.
So ... that's all PrPro's fault? How?
But when I look at professionally produced media from other sources through the same players/situation, they look similar to mine for similar scenes.
Well, if PrPro is screwing things up, why doesn't the other media look 'better' than what I've put out in PrPro?
I agree with you, email@example.com. It never used to be a problem, and even using a relatively high-end calibrated grading monitor, on the same screen it goes from saturated in Premiere to desaturated in Quicktime playback. VLC looks exactly like Premiere and replicated the colours exactly. I'm probably going to do my next project in DaVinci Resolve to see if I can negate this issue, because it's a major one.
All the technical excuses in the world don't satisfy when you can get accurate playback in some places but not in others, and it shouldn't be this much of an issue, unless this is the result of another Apple/Adobe spat.
Jake ... QuickTime has never played properly with color management on a PC, and for most Mac users either from the comments.
It's very easy to demonstrate that PrPro handles things appropriately ... when I export from PrPro in any codec, take that into Resolve, it shows almost exactly the same thing. Export out of Resolve ... QuickTime shows it wrong.
This has been demonstrated by so many colorists and other high-experience users.
I'm still puzzled why someone takes QuickTime seriously. None of the colorists I know do ... and they're all either from the Mac world (and recently moved to PC/Linux to get more horsepower & config options) or still on Mac.
And why ... if this is just an Adobe/Apple spat over QuickTime playback, does Firefox play the files pretty close, but Chrome & Safari don't?
Sadly, it's gotten worse, and just as sadly, I have to take it seriously because it's the default media player for Apple products. Walk into any coffee shop and that's what a big chunk of the population (in my area anyway) are consuming media on. It's washed out in Vimeo as well, and though in the past there may have been minor differences, it seemed like last summer's CC update made the difference even more noticeable. It's not just a little more desaturated, it is seriously washed out.
Whatever the reason, it is super frustrating and I'm going to keep looking for a solution.
Hey, I understand that ... but again, what's the relative presentation of yours against other pro produced media on those screens?
In my testing, it was the same. Hence ... although it didn't look like it did on my screen, my files and the others I'd tested looked similar. The end-user only sees that your media looks "normal" ... even if you look at it and say it's crap.
I've flown about the country a bit over the last few months. Saw quite a few people with devices from phones to tablets watching 'content'. The quality was all over the place ... and it was all 'professionally produced', mostly streamed movies.
One flight, had a good look at three different devices playing the movie broadcast over the plane's internal system. Not even close to each other. One was harsh/contrasty if normal in saturation. Another way overloaded on sat, not bad for luma. Third ... typical QuickTime-type display ... gamma too low resulting in mids too bright and shadows washed out, not enough displayed saturation.
But on each of those devices, that's how the users are used to seeing pro material. Drives me nuts, granted ... like listening to low-quality audio files. Which is why when I can, I ... set things up. I wish I could with my phone & tablet. Ah well.
1 person found this helpful
Just updated to todays update Premiere 12.1.. The Problem is still the same! So so frustrating, having spend a lot of money on adobes PRO editing application for years and now for the (only) PRO Hardware that is available from Apple, and its impossible to work with! Yeah I know, Apples fault is the Display and Adobes the missing color management - come on, it should be possible to work with the latest iMac Pro and Premiere. You can't be serious! And now I have to spend hundreds for Final Cut X ? Or a new additional Display?
I'm using my old 2011 iMac as a second monitor to colour grade - ironic having spent 6 grand on an iMac pro with a built in 5K monitor...
Try toggling between timeline view and full screen inside Premiere. I now see gamma shift even between those
I've been having these problems for years in almost every NLE I've used. As a stop-gap measure, I take the before and after shot, and create a LUT to compensate for that difference. In other words, despite whether my system is professionally calibrated or not, I'm only concerned with the difference between the (working) input and its output—within the system.
It's not a 100% gamma/hue match, but below is a LUT I'm using to compensate for that difference. I usually add the LUT to the final stage of export (Premiere Pro/AME) in the "Effects" tab in the Lumetri Look/LUT.
Disclaimer: I'm using a MacBook Pro, OS 10.12.6, running Premiere Pro CC 2018, so your mileage may vary. My work consists mostly of Rec709 output.
There is one simple solution to this. Adobe could just add a preview mode which allows you to toggle between its default Rec 709 standard and your current display standard. Then you can choose which standard you grade to in the programme before you export. It's an informed choice for the user. At least you have that closure for your own sanity before you send it off into the wild.
In my experience, the washed-out gamma shift displayed by QT, youtube and Vimeo IS the new standard. I rarely produce for Broadcast anymore, almost exclusively for web so I often have ZERO interest in what my work looks like on a broadcast setup. I merely want to preview in my NLE what it will look like on my desktop player and my web browsers on MY OWN computer. Then release it in the wild and get some sleep. When I'm delivering a TV spot or something to be projected in a cinema, I can use REC 709 but for everything else I just want to see what my display will show on export. It's that simple. Premiere doesn't need to have a chip on its shoulder about it. Just give the people who pay their bills the option to view their grades in different modes.
Interestingly when I export from Resolve, the same thing happens if I leave the Video settings to Auto on the Deliver panel. If I switch it to Full it exports correctly and plays in QT, youtube and Vimeo as I saw it in Resolve. I assume this is the 0-255 vs 16-255 dynamic range options. Anyway I've abandoned Premiere for Resolve because it gives me this option. I like options
Yup, it's the 0-255 vs 16-235 issue ... Data levels vs Legal (video) levels.
I, and others, would appreciate if you'd post a request for this in the new 'user voice' bug/feature system they've got, which allows you to search what's been filed and to which the team often responds! It would be excellent to get user-control of the color management settings.
Adobe Bug /Feature Request form: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro
Thanks Neil. Will do.
3 people found this helpful
Right... peeps, I hope I can share my experience and help a few people out:
Seen as many people agree that it is a conflict between PPro and the iMac P3 screen, I went and purchased myself an sRGB/Rec.709 4k ASUS screen to drag my program monitor out onto (so I now have a duel screen setup):
Asus VX24AH 24 inch Frameless IPS 5 ms Console Gaming Monitor with Dual HDMI ports, 2560 x 1440
After some setting up/calibration, I feel as though I've solved the issue on my rig. When I now view what I'm grading (on PP Program monitor) on the external Asus screen, then export... my graded file matches what I've done in PP. This graded file also looks the same when opened in Quicktime on BOTH my iMac and ASUS screen. This may seem glaringly obvious to some, but I've just removed the P3 screen from the "grading equation".
You can see the issue occurring right before your eyes..If I drag the program monitor from screen to screen, you see a "pop" then change in contrast/saturation when it moves over to the P3 iMac monitor and PP is adjusting the image to try and suit.
Ok, I'm not using a fully fledged broadcast monitor... but I am using the type of screen that 90% of people editing on PC's would use. besides I don't edit anything for t.v. The other positive to this is that I have a nice big screen to view what's on my timeline now!
Very nice delineation of the issue. And the best way really to handle it ... as it really is very difficult to try to "blend" a monitor with one color space/profile with program content of a very different space/profile.
It would be helpful if PrPro had more color management settings for the users, though. Please everyone, fill out & jump on the requests for this already filed in the new 'user voice' feedback setup.
And also for multi core processor support. Different issue but without it the iMac pro is a total waste of money.
This information is pretty much mostly incorrect. Quicktime no longer does an incorrect gamma shift. Unless you are still using Quicktime 7? Everything is controlled with ColorSync and all apps show it the same way except for Premiere. It's actually Premiere that's showing it incorrectly in the viewer on a p3 display (5K iMac, new Macbook Pro). This would actually be very evident with a calibrated broadcast monitor connected. Premiere would always show it highly saturated and contrasty to the actual output. FCPX, Resolve, After Effects, Quicktime, Finder—they all show it correctly because they have color management—Premiere does not.
I had a dream last night that I was watching one of my edits on a screen at someone else's home and the color grade I thought I applied was totally wrong. I suppose it was more of a nightmare than a dream.
Thanks for the corrections on a couple things. As a PC user, yea the only Qt available is 7.
I've talked with colorists about the P3/Mac setup and Resolve. Was told that well ... you can sorta use it, but ... hook up a Flanders or other total b-cast monitor all corrected through an external LUT box properly calibrated ... that P3 display and the b-cast monitor ain't gonna match particularly closely. Whether you're doing Rec709 or full HDR, which the Mac monitors of course can't really do.
So it seems the Mac monitors are in an interesting and pretty color space, but not particularly suited for b-cast grade work. In the same way most other "regular" monitors aren't.
Which isn't to say you can't get close enough for much work to pass. Now, Flanders gave away a like $5G monitor at the Colorist Mixer at NAB ... first name called was a noted teacher of editing/software/grading in NLE's. Who'd just left 'cause a friend had an extra Cirque du Soleil ticket. Were I him, I'd have been as bummed as he was sitting at the show, when a text noted he'd been called first!
I can't afford such a rig, so I make due with calibrating as I can & occasionally shipping a test clip off to see if it matches muster (which I seem to do). So, you can work with a monitor not 'natively' in full proper space/profile. I sure wouldn't take on delivering a b-cast show off this setup.
But if I'd won that Flanders, I'd have been rather thrilled all the same ...
Oh, yea. As I've seen it written by a colorist, "You can't fix gramma's green TV."
He'd graded a tv show. Was visiting his gramma in like Wisconsin or wherever, and her TV was way green. So as he was sitting there visiting with the TV always just left on, "his" show came up.
And looked horrible.
His only comfort was that, relatively speaking, it looked pretty good compared to the way other shows appeared. Within that whole green-screen TV thing ...
exactly my problem, i can't explain it better. help please
PrPro works internally in Rec709/sRGB using mostly a 'data' or 'full' level setup, 0-255. And does its best to display a Rec709/sRGB image within the program. Rec709 being the main broadcast standard, and that standard is in an sRGB profile space.
If your monitor is in a full Rec709/sRGB profile and properly calibrated with appropriate gamma, you'll see the same thing in VLC & Potplayer video players.
If your monitor isn't set as above, you won't see the same thing outside of PrPro from PrPro exports. So in recent Macs that are typically a P3 space, or those who run A-RGB or ProPhoto or whatever profile, outside of PrPro the exports will look different.
However, at least as of now, PrPro doesn't have any user settings to manage it versus the display used on the computer. And the P3 equipped Macs don't allow the user to set the color space to sRGB. Which is a bit of a problem ... ahem.
Which is where running an attached sRGB monitor calibrated to Rec709 comes in as the way to check your material.
Getting Apple to actually give their users choices is probably a totally losing battle.
Getting PrPro to allow color management settings is probably the place to request changes ... so please file the feature request over on their new and nifty UserVoice 'feedback' system. You can search what others have posted, see responses from the team's engineers on some, and of course, post your own as well as comment on other filings.
Adobe Bug Report /Feature Request form: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro
What steps did you go through to calibrate the monitor?
I would actually invite people to vote at User Voice where we are actively taking feedback and taking action on feature requests and bug reports.
Please be as clear and detailed as possible.
There is an active discussion on a similar topic here
As there are multiple ideas in this thread, please submit new ideas at User Voice individually if you don't already see it. Up-vote those ideas that resonate with and have open discussion with other users.
Before you can be sure your monitor can be calibrated to appropriate sRGB/Rec709 standards, you need to know what the native settings for the monitor are ... if it's a P3 monitor by hardware, as in many recent Macs, that's problematic.
At that point, you need both color-aware apps and calibration.
Which is why it is so necessary to get PrPro to have user-settings for monitor profile and settings similar to what Resolve has. Please go to the UserVoice system as Reg and I have suggested, and vote/talk-up such requests.
Nothing fancy mate, just used my eyes! I spent a good hour or two with the same clip on the iMac screen and the new ASUS monitor... Taking PP out of the equation, I opened up a video in the native player onto both screens, then adjusted the colour/contrast settings on the external monitor until it matched what I saw on the iMac screen.
I then went on to grade some footage in PP on the external ASUS monitor, exported and made sure it looked the same on both screens, and when uploaded to Vimeo/my iPhone. Other than very slight differences purely down to screen characteristics, it's been the best results I've had since the issue made itself apparent.
Hope this helps
How did you "grab" the three images? What viewer, on which screen?
You see, that makes all the difference, which is what this entire thread is about.
Your iMac and MacBook Pro have different monitors with different color spaces set to different settings in their hardware and the OS. I would hazard a guess that the iMac has a P3 monitor ... that is a massively 'bigger' color space than sRGB/Rec709, so images that 'fill' a Rec709 properly setup monitor seem to lose a lot of saturation while experiencing some color shifting and change of tonalities (lights/darks) when displayed without proper color management on a P3 screen's space.
So what you're getting is exactly what would be expected. Unless, of course, by being aware of the nature of color spaces and standards, you actively set your system up to show according to those standards.
Markus, Did you figure it out?
The answer is in the replies.
He was expecting that the image would be the same no matter the color space and calibration (especially the lack thereof) or app used to view the media.
Which is physically impossible.
One thing you have to understand when producing content for others to view on their gear: you have no control whatsoever on their screens, viewing environment, OS settings, and app/browser of choice.
For example Firefox is color-aware. Chrome and Safari are not. If you produce material so Chrome and Safari show it something like your screen in Quicktime or YouTube on a Mac P3 monitor, Firefox will show it differently. And Firefox with an sRGB calibrated monitor will show it way over contrast and saturation.
But you have to understand no one with your same hardware will actually see exactly what you see on your rig.
I know colorists with $10,000 in calibration gear and many-thousand dollar "confidence" monitors on BlackMagic external LUT controlled boxes including for the client monitor in their suites.
One of the most common colorists issues is the client looks at both the screen for them and the colorist's program-out monitor and says about one, make it look like that other monitor.
Remember this is in the same room, with high end screens calibrated to less than a delta variance of 1.00.
So the entire concept that "I want everyone to see exactly what I see" ... that isn't anything possible even in the same room.
Produce to professional standards and let it go. On any screen it will look like what other professional media looks like *on that screen*.
It will never look like what it does on your screen. It can't.
Just found this thread-- I recently started taking my color management on my home mac(hack) seriously, and got some bad flashbacks from 2009/2010.
I actually sent Steve Jobs an angrygram (with screenshots) and got a response almost immediately from an apple "Sr. Color Engineer" .. I was on a Macpro 1,1 with the ATI video card. I got different screenshots with the same exports.
This was around the beginning of the new quicktime & also prores, IIRC.
The results remain the same after all this time--I have no idea if the underlying issues are the same, but here's what I learned back then:
1) Some video files have a color profile embedded, depending on codec & the app. There are two layers of 'color transforms' that occur after it's exported-- both the display profile and then quicktime. There was an old switch in Quicktime 7 that could let you toggle the last one off, and would result in more consistent results-- but QTX didn't include this function--it pretty much said, nope, you're getting processed through our color profile.
Complicating matters, some older formats/codecs didn't support this at all-- At the time, I was using animation codec as a 'baseline' because it was so simple. It was weird--it took him a long time to even admit that it was doing this--might have been because he didn't know, because it was new.
I'm pretty sure the deal is that there's 'secret sauce' in OSX that created a consistent color pipeline, all the way from footage import & display in FCP > Export as Prores > Playback in QTX. Obviously, there was complete control with the hardware (No NVIDIA Web drivers or anything like that) and the software and quicktime-- But they didn't bother writing translations for other formats.
MP4s support a color profile flag:
I wonder if it might be as simple as a 2.4 gamma vs a 2.2 gamma flag in the ICC profile? If your desktop gamma is flagged as 2.2, it's going to take a file that 'looks right' in the display gamma of 2.4 in PPro, and modify the gamma for QT, based on the display gamma #.
Just some info so that if anybody else is having issues, this could help...