35 Replies Latest reply on Jul 15, 2017 11:34 AM by Stan Jones

    .TIF Files

    Gutter-Fish Level 4

      Hi,

       

      So my client recently made a bunch of .tif files available to me for some new something or other.

      When I bring them into AE they do have alpha channels but when I bring them into Photoshop

      to convert them to a 1000% smaller .png the transparency is not there.

       

      What's even weirder to me is that the images do have alpha channels but they're not the same

      as they are in AE,

       

      When I bring the images into AE I can view the alpha channel & there is transparency.

      When I bring the same image into PS there is an alpha channel but it does not match the image

      and there is no transparency.

       

      I was given about 50 images in total and in photoshop they all have the exact same alpha channel even though the images are all different.

      In AE every image has its own unique alpha channel that matches the image.

       

      What the heck is going on?

       

      Thanks,

      Paul

        • 1. Re: .TIF Files
          Gutter-Fish Level 4

          Little update.    So when a drag a bunch of tiffs into an already open Photoshop window (as layers) they all get the same alpha channel.  There's still no transparency but apparently PS is choosing the alpha channel from one of the images and giving it to all of the images.

          Again, even the image that does have the matching alpha channel has no transparency.  

           

          If I open each of the images separately as it's own tab or project then it does have it's matching alpha channel, but still no transparency.

          • 2. Re: .TIF Files
            Mike_Abbott Level 4

            Ps won't automatically convert the tiff alpha directly into transparency on opening - unlike AE, which does.

             

            But you can get transparency from the alpha very easily once open in Photoshop:

             

            1. open your tiff

            2. channels panel - Ctrl click on the alpha thumbnail (to load it as a selection)

            3. layers panel - 3rd button from the left at the bottom of the layers panel (add layer mask)

             

            ...but if you've got a lot - I'd just load them into AE and render them out as a PNG sequence with alpha at the reduced scale you want : )

            2 people found this helpful
            • 3. Re: .TIF Files
              Gutter-Fish Level 4

              Mike_Abbott  wrote

              - I'd just load them into AE and render them out as a PNG sequence

              You see.  That's why two brains are better than one.

               

              Thanks Mike

              • 4. Re: .TIF Files
                Mike_Abbott Level 4

                Hey Paul - I'm honored that it was yourself that tipped me over the 500 point mark to become a '4 bar general' -ist...  ; )

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: .TIF Files
                  Gutter-Fish Level 4

                  You're on the fast track now......I'm 20 points away from my 5th bar   nudge nudge.

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: .TIF Files
                    Mike_Abbott Level 4

                    15

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: .TIF Files
                      Gutter-Fish Level 4

                      Oh man.  I thought I need 1,000 points for 5 bars.  Turns out is 2,500....That's a pretty steep curve.

                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 8. Re: .TIF Files
                        Mike_Abbott Level 4

                        The only bar you really need is one in which you can crack open a beer and bask in the knowledge that a 100 or so people are now better off because of your contributions

                         

                        Having said that, maybe we should keep this thread going - ping-pong style.

                        5 points per post... we could get you there in 600 messages : )

                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: .TIF Files
                          Gutter-Fish Level 4

                          Mike_Abbott  wrote

                          maybe we should keep this thread going - ping-pong style.

                          5 points per post..

                          I say!!  That's a splendid idea!!

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: .TIF Files
                            Mike_Abbott Level 4

                            We could make this the longest thread on the After Effects forum - EVER!  : )

                            1 person found this helpful
                            • 11. Re: .TIF Files
                              Gutter-Fish Level 4

                              We'll become infamous.

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: .TIF Files
                                Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                Mwahahaha!

                                (is that how you spell it? )

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 13. Re: .TIF Files
                                  Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                  I don't know but I'm genuinely curious to see how long the Titans will allow this tomfoolery to go on?

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 14. Re: .TIF Files
                                    Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                    Here's an idea...

                                    As this is the .TIF Files thread - let's make this the repository of all things TIF relating to Ae! 

                                    TIF trivia, if you like : )

                                     

                                    Let's start withn the basics...

                                    Should it be TIF or TIFF ?

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 15. Re: .TIF Files
                                      Szalam Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      I prefer file extensions to be three letters, but if we're just talking about the format, I suppose TIFF is fine since it stands for Tagged Image File Format. Hmmm

                                       

                                      What I do know is that it's definitely GIF as in gift and not GIF as in giraffe. It's short for Graphics Interchange Format. G-raphics; not J-raphics. I don't care what the creators of the format say; they're super-wrong.

                                      1 person found this helpful
                                      • 16. Re: .TIF Files
                                        Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                        So is .jpeg pronounced jay-feg for joint photographic experts group? I say if jpeg is jay-peg then gif can be jiff.

                                        2 people found this helpful
                                        • 17. Re: .TIF Files
                                          Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                          OK so tif/tiff files are meant to be like .psd files for apps that can't read .psd, right.  If there's no need for layers & no need for higher color depth then using a .tif is dumb, right?   For a simple 8bit image with transparency you don't ever want to use .tif?

                                          1 person found this helpful
                                          • 18. Re: .TIF Files
                                            Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                            sometimes you just start a conversation by asking the wrong question... LOL!

                                            for me:

                                            TIF extension

                                            TIFF when written

                                            GIF as in gift

                                            JPEG as in party... not pharty : )

                                             

                                            anyway... moving on...

                                            Did you know that TIFF was created back in 1986 by the Aldus Corp for use in desktop publishing!

                                            1 person found this helpful
                                            • 19. Re: .TIF Files
                                              Szalam Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Gutter-Fish  wrote

                                               

                                              If there's no need for layers & no need for higher color depth then using a .tif is dumb, right?   For a simple 8bit image with transparency you don't ever want to use .tif?

                                               

                                              TIFFs load really quickly in AE compared to, say, EXR files. Quicker than PNGs too, I think (I haven't tested this myself yet). So, there are times when you might want TIFFs even in 8 bit with no layers.

                                              1 person found this helpful
                                              • 20. Re: .TIF Files
                                                Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                                In the Autumn, according to Wikipedia.

                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                • 21. Re: .TIF Files
                                                  Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                                  Szalam  wrote

                                                  TIFFs load really quickly in AE compared to, say, EXR files. Quicker than PNGs too, I think (I haven't tested this myself yet). So, there are times when you might want TIFFs even in 8 bit with no layers.

                                                  So I received these .tif images of simple cartoon characters 1920x1080 72 ppi 8bit and each on is 8MB.  When I convert to png they're 50kb with no discernible difference in quality.    Are those huge file sizes normal for .tif or did the person who prepared the images just not know what they were doing?

                                                  1 person found this helpful
                                                  • 22. Re: .TIF Files
                                                    Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                                    I remember it well.

                                                    1 person found this helpful
                                                    • 23. Re: .TIF Files
                                                      Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                                      Yes - the huge sizes are 'normal'. Tiff is uncompressed, png is compressed - but lossless compression, so you don't loose anything when you open it.

                                                      1 person found this helpful
                                                      • 24. Re: .TIF Files
                                                        Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                                        No compression - faster processing - but bigger file sizes.

                                                         

                                                        You can save tiff with various forms of compression - LZW, ZIP - even JPEG, yes you can save a TIFF with internal JPEG compression!

                                                        You'd probably find 90% of modern software won't be able to read them.

                                                         

                                                        PNG is massively superior in most situations - smaller files, same quality.

                                                        1 person found this helpful
                                                        • 25. Re: .TIF Files
                                                          Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                                          Mike_Abbott  wrote

                                                           

                                                          Yes - the huge sizes are 'normal'. Tiff is uncompressed, png is compressed - but lossless compression, so you don't loose anything when you open it.

                                                          Which explains why they take longer to open?

                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                          • 26. Re: .TIF Files
                                                            Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                                            Correct. You'll also find rendering an image sequence to PNG is slower than to TIFF - because the PNG's need to be compressed.

                                                            1 person found this helpful
                                                            • 27. Re: .TIF Files
                                                              Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                                              This is great.  So a good time to go with TIFF would be when rendering a large image sequence where the faster writing and subsequent reading will add up to a significant time saving?  

                                                               

                                                              And what about TGA?   When I was learning Maya we always rendered to TGA sequences.   Apparently these formats appeared around the same time and are very similar.  Wikipedia says TGA has better 'true color' capabiities?  

                                                              Are TGA and TIFF pretty much interchangeable?

                                                              1 person found this helpful
                                                              • 28. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                                                It would certainly be worth testing - you'd be dealing with much bigger file sizes of course.

                                                                 

                                                                Good question on the targa files. I think you're right about targa and tiff arriving around the same time.

                                                                 

                                                                'Back in the day' tiff was used in the print industry, targa just in the TV world. Desktop video as we know it know didn't exist of course. That TV/video v print background became ingrained - so that's probably why you would have been directed to render targa when learning Maya. Tiff developed into a much more flexible format - layers, alpha, various possible compression options built in etc. while Targa remained a fairly basic - but perfectly good quality format. You can reneder out Targa from AE, but I've not done so in many years.

                                                                 

                                                                My guess is that the 'better true colour' capability comment is a historical one. When they were introduced I think targa was 'full colour' eg 8 bits per channel, while tiff was not. Tiff rapidly caught up. There would be no difference in quality - so yes, pretty much interchangable in that respect.

                                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                                • 29. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                  Szalam Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  Targa. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a very long time...

                                                                  1 person found this helpful
                                                                  • 30. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                    Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                                                    I converted one of the TIFFs to a TARGA...They save at exactly the same size.

                                                                    1 person found this helpful
                                                                    • 31. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                      Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                                                      BTW anyone who comments on this thread will have their comment marked as helpful.  It's like the helpful-thread-easter-egg-Jay-Feg.

                                                                      1 person found this helpful
                                                                      • 32. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                        Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                                                        Gutter-Fish  wrote

                                                                         

                                                                        I converted one of the TIFFs to a TARGA...They save at exactly the same size.

                                                                         

                                                                        Yes - as expected. They are holding the RGB(A) data in exactly the same way (assuming you've not used any of the available compression options). They should also render out at the same speed. I'm just not too sure about how much support Targa has in other editors. Premiere will import them - but I think Davinci Resolve won't.

                                                                         

                                                                        Curiosity got the better of me and I did a quick test render of a very simple motion graphics piece - just 12 seconds:

                                                                         

                                                                        TIFF sequence (uncompressed) : 24 seconds render time, file size: 443 MB

                                                                        PNG sequence : 48 seconds render time, file size 137 MB

                                                                         

                                                                        Take your pick : )

                                                                         

                                                                        This was a very simple project - just a handful of stills, one video layer, and a few expressions - so the difference is maximised here. If the project the was taking a minute a frame to render the extra time to compress to PNG would add a very minor amount of time and probably be insignificant.

                                                                        1 person found this helpful
                                                                        • 33. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                          Gutter-Fish Level 4

                                                                          For me personally the speed difference alone wouldn't outweigh the space it takes to store it.

                                                                          BTW I've earned 100 points in the least 24 hours  LOL.  Well, maybe "earned" isn't the right word.

                                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                                          • 34. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                            Mike_Abbott Level 4

                                                                            Perhaps this would be an appropriate point to abandon ship and let the infamous TIF thread die a natural death... 

                                                                            3 people found this helpful
                                                                            • 35. Re: .TIF Files
                                                                              Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                              Yeh; I marked this last one helpful! lol. Ah, for the old days of camaraderie in the Video Lounge.