14 Replies Latest reply on Oct 11, 2017 8:21 AM by marks60810224

    gamut warning changes pixels

    marks60810224 Level 1

      I use View>Proof Setup>Custom>Device To Simulate, and then I choose a profile for whatever photo paper I'm printing to.

       

      Then when I check View>Gamut Warning, some of the pixels (that are NOT out of range) change color, especially in the dark areas of the image. This is not the same as the pixels that out of gamut, which, of course, would change to whatever color I have chosen in my preferences for displaying out of gamut pixels.

       

      Basically, the darkest parts of the image lack contrast and tend to "posterize" when Gamut Warning is not checked, and checking Gamut Warning makes these dark parts of the image look better, with better detail.

       

      In other words, turning on Gamut Warning is "correcting" the shadows. Without Gamut Warning on, some of the very darkest parts of the image (particularly blues/purples) don't display correctly and they don't look like my actual print.

       

      This happens only when I choose a profile for a manufacturer's paper (and for whatever paper I choose including, Hahnemuehle, Harman, or Canon); it doesn't happen when I choose one of the pre-set profiles such as Monitor RGB or sRGB, et. al. And it happens on three different monitors I have, including a finely calibrated NEC.

       

      By the way, I turn off View>Extras when I look at this, because the Pixel Grid interferes with the perception of the color of the pixels (turning Gamut Warning off and on changes the brightness of the Pixel Grid itself, which I am told is normal, and I don't have an issue with that).

       

      To try to see whether this happens for yourself, use Custom view of a paper profile, zoom in to 3200%, then look at a dark part of the image (but not pure black; try a part of the image with very dark blues), turn of Pixel Grid, then check and uncheck Gamut Warning. See whether the pixels change.

       

      (1) Does this happen for you? (2) Why would it be happening for me?

       

      Thanks.

        • 1. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Yes, I do see a very slight difference in near-black. Windows 10, CC2017, Epson papers.

           

          I would never have noticed this, as I never touch gamut warning. It's a completely useless tool IMO. It has a certain threshold before it kicks in, and when it does it says nothing about how much. So it tells you absolutely nothing.

           

          Still, there shouldn't be a difference. No idea what this is.

          • 2. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
            marks60810224 Level 1

            Thank you very much for your reply. Especially thanks for confirming that this is not an issue that only I am having.

             

            What's disturbing is that, at least for me, the image looks correct only when Gamut Warning is on. With Gamut Warning off, the very dark blue parts look "posterized", lacking sufficient "gradation" to show detail (for example, the subtle creases in a dark blue sweater someone is wearing). That should not be the case; the image should look right even with Gamut Warning off.

             

            /

             

            About Gamut Warning and its ordinary function. I do find it useful. I look at the out of gamut areas of the image, then use the Sponge brush (or, even better, a selection and Image>Adjustments>Hue/Saturation) to desaturate right to the point where it pops into gamut.; or whatever other says, such as cloning or painting.

            • 3. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Well, you will see some differences when soft proof is turned on, long before gamut warning shows any clipping. That in itself is normal - it starts to clip, but not enough for gamut warning to show it.

               

              If there is clipping, and the visual soft proof indicates I should do something about it, I take a more targeted approach. I look at the histogram to determine which channel is clipping, high or low end, and then examine that channel to see specifically what needs to be done. A wholesale desaturation always takes too much across the board.

               

              Clipping in itself need not be a problem. But if it kills texture and general "air", it can often be fixed without any perceived loss of saturation.

               

              Anyway, as far as I can see without running extensive tests, the non-gamut warning version appears to be the correct one. Even more reason to avoid it if you ask me.

              • 4. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                marks60810224 Level 1

                Sorry, I'm confused as to which subject you're referring to now: (1) Gamut Warning causing in gamut pixels to change. The main subject, or (2) Using Gamut Warning to ascertain out of gamut pixels or areas, and then methods to correct for out of gamut. The second subject that came up.

                 

                Please bear with me so that I can make sure we're on the same page together:

                 

                My workflow for printing: The image opens without Proof Setup. So I turn on View>Proof Setup>Custom>[my printer/paper profile]. Of course, this shows different colors than looking at the image without Proof Setup, as it should. But then I notice that the dark areas (especially the blues) look "posterized", even though they are not out of gamut, and don't match the dark areas (especially the blues) when I print. Then I turn on Gamut Warning (unrelated to the issue of looking for out of gamut areas), and the dark areas (especially the blues) look correct and match my print. In other words, if I didn't have Gamut Warning on, then I would be trying (unnecessarily) to get better gradation in the dark areas in anticipation of how the print will look. Turning on Gamut Warning shows the dark areas correctly, just as they'll look in the print, so I don't have to unnecessarily try to get better gradation. And Photoshop should not be doing this. If there are no out of gamut pixels, then turning Gamut Warning off and on should make no difference in the on screen appearance, and the appearance with Gamut Warning off should look just as good as with Gamut Warning on.

                 

                It was only by accident that I noticed this quirk with Gamut Warning. I had an image open that look posterized in the dark areas, and I know it shouldn't look that way and would not print that way. I turned things off and on in View, and then noticed that turning on Gamut Warning fixed it, though it shouldn't fix it since it shouldn't need fixing to begin with. Then I noticed this happens only with paper profiles, not with pre-set monitor and srgb profiles.

                 

                The other stuff, I wrote was about correcting out of gamut areas, and, if I'm not mistaken, you then also described a more sophisticated and better way of doing that. But it's a separate subject. (By the way, if by "wholesale desaturation" you mean desaturating the whole image, of course I don't do that. I desaturate just the specific areas that are out of gamut.

                • 5. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                  D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  You're right, this secondary discussion about the general usefulness of gamut warning does confuse the issue. So let's leave that for now.

                   

                  I certainly don't see any banding or other artifacts in the shadows here, when turning soft proof on. It looks as I would expect it to look, corresponding to the print, IOW showing only the effects of the gamut clipping that actually happens. BTW I'm using an Eizo wide gamut monitor that mercilessly exposes any shortcomings that might be there.

                   

                  The difference with gamut warning on is apparently wrong here. It causes a general lifting of deep shadows that neither matches the original or the print. It's a third variety coming out of nowhere.

                   

                  I'll look more closely into it later today, and post some screenshots once I find a suitable original (showing the effect well). I'm on my way out and don't have time to dig into it right now.

                  • 6. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                    davescm Adobe Community Professional

                    I had this problem years ago with an Nvidia driver. It was an error seen when using the GPU code.

                    Noel Carboni had already raised the issue and found that switching the GPU mode to Basic (which forced the CPU to do the colour shading) resolved the issue in the short term. It may be worth setting the  GPU to Basic or even turning it off temporarily and see if you get the same.

                     

                    See this:

                    Strange behaviour softproof and Gamut warning

                     

                     

                     

                    Edit to add - I just checked and I don't see the issue on my current AMD card & driver with Advanced GPU mode checked

                     

                    Dave

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                      D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Ah, that seems to be it. I need to recheck this when I get home.

                       

                      BTW the issue Noel referred to has been well known ever since he first reported it around CS5 or so. This manifests itself as colored shadow banding in ProPhoto files, with GPU at Normal or Advanced. This is where display color management is handled by the GPU. In the Basic setting it's shifted back to the CPU in the traditional way, and the banding disappears.

                       

                      The effect varies a bit with the type of monitor profile used, but it happens even with sRGB/Adobe RGB as monitor profile. I haven't seen it lately, and assumed it was fixed. But maybe it just doesn't show up with my current monitor profiles (Eizo Colornavigator version 2, matrix).

                       

                      I don't think this is the same thing, but it could be related, a different manifestation of the same underlying problem.

                      • 8. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                        marks60810224 Level 1

                        Thanks to you both for your help.

                         

                        I tested only a cheap monitor at work this morning. I'll test again on my wide gamut monitor at home tonight.

                         

                        What I found this morning (had to close and reopen Photoshop to activate these preferences):

                         

                        Turn off Use Open CL. No help.

                         

                        Drawing Mode Normal. No help.

                         

                        Drawing Mode Basic. Works.

                         

                        So I have Drawing Mode Basic and Use Open CL and looks good so far...

                        • 9. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Yes, the GPU setting matters. In "Basic" mode there is no difference with gamut warning on or off. In "Normal" or "Advanced" mode something weird happens.

                           

                          And yes, gamut warning on is the correct rendering. I didn't look closely enough before.

                           

                          So this is obviously OpenGL inaccuracies, just like the ProPhoto bug we know from before. BTW that's OpenGL, not OpenCL which is something else. The OpenCL checkbox is irrelevant here. OpenGL is the engine that runs display color management in Normal/Advanced modes, among many other things.

                           

                          Here's a simple gradient, divided into three horizontal strips. The file is Adobe RGB, video card NVidia Quadro K420, GPU Advanced:

                          test_strips.png

                           

                          I've always kept GPU at Basic on my work system because of the ProPhoto bug. Here I need absolute accuracy. All the more reason to continue that practice.

                          • 10. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                            marks60810224 Level 1

                            I don't see Open GL in the Performance tab or in Advanced Settings in the Performance tab. Not that it's grayed out; rather just not there. Using latest Photoshop update.

                            • 11. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                              davescm Adobe Community Professional

                              Unlike Open CL, Open GL is not a separate option in Preferences. It is enabled when you enable the GPU. The functions it is then used for vary by the drawing mode Basic, Normal or Advanced.

                               

                              Dave

                              • 12. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                                marks60810224 Level 1

                                Ah, thanks.

                                • 13. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                                  D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Just keep GPU at the "Basic" setting, and OpenGL is off. At least as far as color management is concerned.

                                   

                                  That's what I'm going to do from now on, without exception. That thing is far too unreliable for critical work.

                                  • 14. Re: gamut warning changes pixels
                                    marks60810224 Level 1

                                    Confirmed it all for myself last night on good monitor. Thanks for this solution!