9 Replies Latest reply on Oct 19, 2017 1:26 PM by D Fosse

    Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file

    Alan Bull

      Hi

       

      I have just spoken to adobes costumer support who tell me that there is no way of transferring a bunch of jpeg file presets over to the Raw files as a starting point. If like me you shoot both jpegs & Raws.

       

      I understand that a jpeg can be opened in camera Raw, But obviously you then do not get all the information from the raw file.

       

      I find that many times I would like to have the look of the jpeg as the starting point for a Raw file.

       

      How many other people find this, and do you feel adobe should add this ability to both Photoshop & Lightroom.

        • 1. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
          Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

          I'm not sure I understand your request. It should not be too much trouble to come up with a preset (or multiple ones) that mimic's the manufacturerers internal develop settings and apply that as a start.

           

          Mylenium

          • 2. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
            Alan Bull Level 1

            Hi Mylenium

             

            If like many photographers you shoot both jpegs & raws. Then many photographers would say set the jpeg setting differently for a portrait shoot than say a landscape shoot.

             

            Portrait would give better skin tones, where as landscape would give better natural colours.

             

            Or say Black & White, with and without clarity.

             

            If you could then copy the look and settings of these jpegs as the starting point of the Raw, I think it could save photographer a lot of time.

             

            But this way your still working on the full raw not a jpeg.

             

            For weddings say this could be a real timesaver.

            • 3. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
              Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

              I'm still not clear how you would imagine this to work. Unless the manufacturer were to convert these settings into color profiles, metadata that can be used by ACR or some other sort of parametric/ formulaic code that mimics the internal processing, all of this is rather meaningless and doesn't go beyond creating custom presets. Of course one could compare the two images and make some sort of educated assumption e.g. based on the histograms or abstract transforms like existing color matching functions already do, but that still doesn't tell PS or any other tool how the internal processing arrived at the look, which seems to me is the actual issue here: There's a million ways to turn a white cat into a black one and get identical results just like there's multiple ways to give raw data a specific "look". toi me it really boils down to that: The manufacturers have to document their settings so they can be replicated to allow an exact reproduction. Everything else is a guess, be that the operator pushing sliders in ACR or some cloud-based KI trying to detect the underlying steps. If you're lucky, you may find some info on that already somewhere.

               

              Mylenium

              • 4. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Can't be done. The problem is that numerical adjustments mean completely different things to a raw file and a rendered RGB file. They don't produce the same result. This isn't about ACR or Photoshop, but the "anatomy" of raw vs. RGB.

                 

                This even applies to RGB files in different color spaces. The same adjustment gives different results.

                 

                You can easily verify this for yourself. Just try different adjustments on a jpeg-raw pair, and compare the results.

                • 5. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
                  Alan Bull Level 1

                  Hi

                   

                  Whilst I welcome both of your inputs on this matter. I disagree with both of you that this can not be done.

                   

                  My reason for this is both Photoshop & Lightroom do this now up to a point.

                   

                  Both apps already give you the ability to goto the camera calibration area and under profile select a preset which ACR has pulled from the image metadata to match the presents on the camera.

                   

                  However in my opinion Adobe has again been very lazy and missed adding to this functionally in Lightroom Classic CC and Photoshop CC 19

                   

                  It would be a very easy step from here to add functionally like when you change these presets in camera or change from one preset to another during a shoot, to then have an option on import to apply these modified preset to the batch of Raws.

                   

                  What I and saying is that if adobe did this, it would immediately make this feature a lot more useable by a lot more people a lot more of the time.

                   

                  As many photographer who use these apps are working pros, I fell adobe is missing a trick here. Has this could be a real timesaver.

                   

                  The reason I put this question onto the forum is as a working pro i've had several meetings with adobe over the years and fine that they are very very slow to embrace new ideas.

                   

                  What I want to find out is how many other user feel this would be a worthwhile feature, and if adobe are not going to offer it, is there not a market for this as a plug in.

                  • 6. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

                     

                    Of course it can be done - but it would produce completely unpredictable results. Any given adjustment would have dramatically different effects on a raw file and a jpeg,

                     

                    This has nothing to do with what application you are using. It is because the data structures are very different in the two file types.

                    • 7. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
                      D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      https://forums.adobe.com/people/Alan+Bull  wrote

                       

                      when you change these presets in camera or change from one preset to another during a shoot, to then have an option on import to apply these modified preset to the batch of Raws.

                       

                      This is in the realm of camera profiles. Yes, for some camera models there is one that is intended to match the camera-processed jpeg. But it's not identical - it's not like this profile goes in and reads the camera settings to produce a matching result. ACR doesn't read in-camera settings. The profile is custom-made by Adobe engineers beforehand.

                       

                      Nikon and Canon don't publish their algorithms. It's proprietary, secret sauce. So there's no way to know why a Nikon jpeg looks the way it does. All Adobe can do is duplicate the look as closely as possible, using ACR's own processing.

                      • 8. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
                        Alan Bull Level 1

                        Hi Fosse

                         

                        I fully understand what you are saying and your last comment raises some interesting questions.

                         

                        When you look closely and what these apps can do, there is nothing that I am asking that can't be done. ( In my mind )

                         

                        Adobe has it's own in-house colorsync , this can already do all I ask.

                         

                        When cameras capture raw/jpeg they nearly aways both have the same colour space. They are also very often the same pixel dimensions. But different bit depths.

                         

                        What I am saying is if these apps where to scan and compare the jpeg to the raw on import, then using

                        mathematical code these apps should be able to copy to look of the jpeg over to the raw. Including noise, grain etc. Whilst keep colours in gamut.

                         

                        These apps already do why cleverer stuff than this. For example when merging files, making stitched panoramas, Merging areas with the healing tools.

                         

                        I understand that for example how colorsync works with printer profiles, is to some degree like you said by knowing the secret sauce of the printer. But even without this information these apps should be able to match the starting looks on different file types.

                         

                        Even if the files have different dimensions, look at how smart preview works.

                         

                        I understand that if adobe knew the secret sauce from the camera companies and could link this data to the metadata or XML Sidecar this would help.

                         

                        But even without this data this should be possible as I am not asking these apps to do anything they are not already doing.

                         

                        When you fully realise what a huge timesaver this could be, I think adobe have missed a trick.

                         

                        This would be a very easy plugin to write.

                        • 9. Re: Copying a Jpegs image presets to a Raw file
                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          https://forums.adobe.com/people/Alan+Bull  wrote

                           

                          When cameras capture raw/jpeg they nearly aways both have the same colour space.

                           

                          No, this is based on a misunderstanding.

                           

                          A raw file doesn't even have a color space (the camera setting only applies to the jpeg). That comes way later, after the file has been de-mosaiced ("de-bayerized") and processed. A lot of things go on before the result is ready to be encoded into a standard color space, and this early stage is where camera profiles are applied.

                           

                          A raw file is just the data captured by the sensor. If you could see it, it would be a grayscale image, very dark, very visually compressed and dull. The sensor only reacts to photons, and this is how the sensor records photons.

                           

                          To become an image, it has to be processed. What Nikon and Canon do here is their own closely kept secret. ACR can't access it. It's not that Adobe "missed" it, it's that it's not accessible.

                           

                          A raw file always has to be interpreted to become a useful image. The jpeg is just the camera maker's interpretation, no more "correct" than any other interpretation.