20 Replies Latest reply on May 21, 2018 10:15 PM by RjL190365

    GTX 560. How much will it help?

    Clay201b

      What kind of performance boost can I reasonably expect from a GTX 560?

       

      Using Premiere Pro CC 2017, I am editing 4K video from my Sony a 6300, using 1080p (have not tried 720P yet, but am considering it) proxies and playing my clips back at 1/4 or 1/8 resolution. I'm also creating simple, static titles. Performance is pretty awful. Editing and playback are possible until I start adding effects such as Lumetri Color and cropping. At that point, the machine can handle 1/8 resolution at best. However, the straw that broke the camel's back was when I began creating the simple titles. Lag was so bad that I couldn't finish them. At this pace, it will take me forever to complete my small project, which will consist of about 7 clips, three to five minutes each.

       

       

      I have a workstation with an i7-3770 processor. I will be increasing the RAM from 4GB to 16GB next week. My OS and software are stored on a 7200 RPM internal platter drive. My project drive is a second, separate 7200 RPM internal platter. My GPU is just an nVidia Quadro 600.

       

      I'd like to install some SSDs, but that's a subject for a seperate post.

       

      Right now, I'd like to tackle the PSU and the GPU. I have an nVidia GTX 560 graphics card, but I can't install it because it requires around 100 watts of power and my 280 watt PSU is nearly maxed out already. This is a Lenovo workstation and the motherboard has a 14 pin power connector rather than a 20 pin. The compatible PSUs are not common and cost more than your typical units. (There are adapters that, in theory, would allow me to use an ordinary, 20 pin PSU but some people think it would create a risk of frying the motherboard.)

       

      I know the GTX 560 is on the low end for video cards used for Premiere Pro. (In fact, at one time, I think I read that the only way to get GPU acceleration out of this card was to was to use a minor hack on the software.) What kind of performance boost can I expect from it? I have read that GPU acceleration only helps with rendering. I have tried rendering my timeline and then editing. It helps a little, but not much. If the best I can hope for is an increase in a rendering speed, I don't think it's going to be worth it.

       

      Buying a new, more expensive graphics card is not an option at the moment.

       

      I am fine with continuing to use proxies and playing back my footage at less than full resolution. I am even alright with color correcting and color grading using only the proxies. However, when I play back my color corrected footage, I need it to play smoothly at 1/4 or even 1/2 resolution. Also, when I pause playback, I do need to see the full resolution proxy at 1080p or 720p. And finally, when I create titles, I need to be able to do it without significant lag and I need to be able to see the titles on top of my footage.

       

      Is the GTX 560 going to help?

        • 1. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
          Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

          I seriously doubt you would see much if qny improvement going from about 100 CUDA cores to about 300 plus you conld seriously have a problem with the drivers for that old card and present day Adobe CC.  Today we have low end GTX 1050;s with 640 cores.  Also you need two six pin power connectores and you are going from a single width card to cdual width.

          • 2. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
            Peru Bob Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Clay201b  wrote

             

            Is the GTX 560 going to help?

            No.  Your hard drive setup and the processor will need to be upgraded as well as the power supply.

            It would be best to start saving for a new computer.

            • 3. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
              RjL190365 Level 5

              My opinion of the GTX 560 is:

               

              Don't buy it. (Unless you have one already laying around in your spare parts bin.)

               

              You see, although you currently have a really lousy GPU in your workstation (the Quadro 600 really is a glorified GeForce GT 430 DDR3), the GTX 560 is actually slower all around than newer, more-budget-oriented GPUs such as the GTX 1050. This is despite the GTX 560's memory throughput of 128 GB/second versus the 112 GB/second memory throughput of the GTX 1050 series. The reason is that the Fermi architecture that the GTX 560 uses is far less efficient than the newer Pascal architecture of the GTX 1050 series. So, although the GTX 560 is more powerful all around than your current Quadro 600, why buy it when there are newer and better GPUs out there?

               

              And that's not to mention that the GTX 560 is so power-hungry that it requires a 450W or higher PSU just to even handle it at all. So, if you must spend more than $80 just to upgrade the PSU and other components to accommodate that GTX 560, then it's not worth the trouble at all. (Sure, you can buy so-called "600W" power supply units for $20. But those units, if anything, would actually be worse than your system's current 280W unit in terms of maximum continuous power handling capability.)

              • 4. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                Clay201b Level 1

                "Your hard drive setup and the processor will need to be upgraded as well as the power supply.

                It would be best to start saving for a new computer."

                 

                 

                Is it really that grim? I've seen a number of blog posts and YouTube videos swearing that, as long as you use proxies and don't require full resolution playback, you can handle 4K footage with the average Windows computer. Are they full of it?

                • 5. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                  RjL190365 Level 5

                  In your situation, then yes, it is pretty grim: You cannot use standard PC components (in terms of the case and the PSU) with that PC's motherboard. Plus, no single hard drive can sustain more than about 225 MB/second on the outermost tracks of the physical disks. In face, your average hard drive throughput will plummet to less than 150 MB/second as the disks fill up!

                   

                  And then, most NLEs, Premiere included, will decompress compressed video content on-the-fly for viewing, necessitating extremely high disk throughputs, in excess of 500 MB/second, just to edit such decompressed-on-the-fly 4K content smoothly. Even decompressed-on-the-fly 1080p material requires a disk throughput in excess of 300 MB/second just to edit smoothly.

                   

                  As such, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

                   

                  By the way, you will not be working directly with 4K material when you use proxies: Instead, you will be working with a much-lower-rez copy of this content (typically only 1920x540) when you do your editing work, and then the NLE will apply the changes to the 4K original when it comes time to render. However, this would be of no help at all whatsoever if your GPU cannot handle 4K at all. In fact, Fermi-generation GPUs have a maximum display resolution of only 2560x1600 whereas 4K video content has a typical resolution of 3840x2160. Thus, if your GPU cannot handle 4K at all, and Premiere comes across 4K content for rendering, what the program does is to lock the MPE render to the software-only mode, thus completely defeating the GPU acceleration feature. This explains why the GTX 560 Ti 448 does so poorly in the H.264 Blu-ray export test in PPBM despite doing relatively well in the MPEG-2 DVD timeline export test, because part of the content in that H.264 Blu-ray timeline consists of 4K material.

                  • 6. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                    Clay201b Level 1

                    "You cannot use standard PC components (in terms of the case and the PSU)"

                     

                    The PSU will obviously be a a factor if I try to install a more powerful graphics card or upgrade the processor. I *can* get a more powerful PSU. I just want to be sure it's worth the money and the work involved before I do it.

                     

                    How is the case a problem? Are you thinking it won't accomodate a full size graphics card? Is this a heat dissipation issue?

                     

                    "no single hard drive can sustain more than about 225 MB/second on the outermost tracks of the physical disks. In face, your average hard drive throughput will plummet to less than 150 MB/second as the disks fill up!"

                     

                    Thank you for all the data on hard drive throughput. That's going to be very useful when I'm shopping for SSDs. It also makes me think it's worth my time to experiment with even lower res proxies. I doubt they would solve all my problems, but it'll be interesting and useful to see whether there's any change at all.

                     

                    It still bothers me that a number of people are claiming they edit 4K (using proxies) on ordinary computers with on-board graphics and maybe 8GB of RAM. I can't reconcile what they're saying with what I'm reading here. I feel like I could be missing something. Can you shed any light on this?

                    • 7. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                      RjL190365 Level 5

                      What you've read on 4K editing assumes that the GPU itself is capable of displaying 4K. Unfortunately, according to my edited post above, none of that will help you at all if your particular GPU cannot display 4K at all. Neither your current Quadro 600 nor your planned GTX 560 is capable at all of displaying 4K; in fact, their maximum display resolution is only 2560x1600. As a result, that upgrade would be a complete waste of money not be worth the trouble of swapping the cards because Premiere would then become "locked" to the software-only mode (no GPU acceleration at all whatsoever) until the rendering job is finished, with no warning or notification at all, in this case.

                       

                      And the case is a problem because it uses proprietary connectors to match those on the originally installed motherboard. If you switch motherboards, then you may need a new case and a new PSU as well because such OEM brand-name cases might not have used ATX-standard connectors at all.

                       

                      And although you were set on the GTX 560, did you know that most of them are equipped with only 1GB of onboard RAM? That's nowhere near enough to handle GPU acceleration of 4K video content. There were a few GTX 560's with 2GB of RAM, but that still does not change the fact that the GPU itself is not capable of handling 4K.

                       

                      In other words, in terms of editing and rendering of 4K video material, you currently have absolutely nothing in terms of a GPU that can handle 4K at all. But going from a glorified GT 430 to a GTX 560 (which, I'm afraid to say this, are both well over six years old at this point) would be a total waste of money more trouble than it's worth because you would've gone from absolutely nothing to absolutely nothing - because neither GPU can handle 4K at all. (4K capability in Nvidia GPUs did not arrive until the Kepler generation was introduced in 2012.) You'd be way better off putting the money that you would have wasted on that GTX 560 towards the purchase of a newer-generation GPU, such as a GTX 1050, that can actually handle 4K.

                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 8. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                        Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I dont understand either:

                        I edit 4K Canon XF-AVC 200mbps on 2018! with a i7 940 gtx480 12 gig ram on a 1920x1080 monitor with MPE set to hardware.

                        Its a bit slow that I cannot deny. But it does what needs to do.

                        Proxies works even better.

                         

                        So why would a 560 not work? second hand they cost hardly anything.

                        If OP will get improved performance I dont know.

                        I so know you cannot use a 4K monitor.

                        • 9. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                          RjL190365 Level 5

                          If you were to use a Fermi GPU with Premiere Pro set to the MPE GPU acceleration mode, and also run GPU-Z and the CPU monitor that's built into Windows, take a look at both the GPU utilization and the CPU utilization graphs when it comes time to render 4K content with a lot of GPU-accelerated efects applied. You will notice that the GPU utilization remains at or near zero constantly while the CPU gets pegged to at or near 100%. This is a sign that Premiere has automatically switched over to the software-only mode without any indication at all whatsoever.

                          • 10. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                            Clay201b Level 1

                            Thank you for going into detail. On the one hand, this is starting to make more sense. The people editing with proxies are getting better results than I am because they're using GPUs that, even though they may not be very powerful, are designed to display 4K. On the other hand, I'm confused because you say....

                             

                            "And the case is a problem because it uses proprietary connectors to match those on the originally installed motherboard. If you switch motherboards, then you may need a new case and a new PSU as well because such OEM brand-name cases might not have used ATX-standard connectors at all."

                             

                            Why would I need to switch motherboards? Is there some factor other than the GPU that you suspect is preventing me from editing smoothly using proxies?

                             

                            We talked about hard drive throughput and the numbers you offered were quite persuasive, but the people advocating the use of proxies don't seem to be using SSDs. I can dig into their posts and videos some more and find out specifics about their hardware: maybe I'm making some incorrect assumptions. But even if I need to add some SSDs, that wouldn't necessitate getting a new motherboard, would it?

                            • 11. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                              Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Render? as in preview files or export?

                              • 12. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                Clay201b Level 1

                                Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely give this a try. Would Lumetri Color be GPU accelerated? Or would I need to apply a different affect effect?

                                • 13. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                  Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Added Warp stabilizer and Lumetri, export to H.264 match source high bitrate

                                  GPUz: gpu load is 100 %

                                  Windows cpu 40% memory nearly max.

                                  480.png

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 14. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                    RjL190365 Level 5

                                    Thanks for the result. However, the creator of this discussion did not specify whether his GTX 560 had 1GB or 2GB of RAM. If that GTX 560 had only 1GB of RAM, the Premiere renderer will very likely get depleted of available graphics RAM, forcing Premiere Pro to switch to the software-only mode in the middle of rendering that particular 4K clip, and remain in software-only mode until the rendering of that clip is finished.

                                     

                                    Thus, while the GTX560 may start rendering more quickly for a while, it (especially the 1GB version) will not solve the problem of needing more graphics RAM than it has available.

                                    • 15. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                      Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                      Clay201b  wrote

                                       

                                      It still bothers me that a number of people are claiming they edit 4K (using proxies) on ordinary computers with on-board graphics and maybe 8GB of RAM. I can't reconcile what they're saying with what I'm reading here. I feel like I could be missing something. Can you shed any light on this?

                                       

                                      From RJL

                                      Plus, no single hard drive can sustain more than about 225 MB/second on the outermost tracks of the physical disks. In face, your average hard drive throughput will plummet to less than 150 MB/second as the disks fill up!

                                      1. Well there is 4K and then there is 4K.  I can easily edit XAVC-S from my Sony camera but when you get 4K from drones and XAVC Professional then you start having problems.
                                      2. I can guarantee that your current hard disk drives do not come any where near that 225/150 MB/second, with that general vintage and estimated price range of the Lenovo, you are more likely to have numbers slightly better than 1/2 that. Here are the Read Rate test results of a Seagate 1TB 7200 rpm which probably illustrates what you really are getting

                                      • 16. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                        Clay201b Level 1

                                        "the creator of this discussion did not specify whether his GTX 560 had 1GB or 2GB of RAM".

                                         

                                        Oops. Sorry about that.

                                         

                                        According to the label, it's a 2GB card (GeForce GTX560 SC 2G).

                                        • 17. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                          Clay201b Level 1

                                          "Well there is 4K and then there is 4K.  I can easily edit XAVC-S from my Sony camera..."

                                           

                                          As luck would have it, XAVC-S from a Sony camera is exactly what I'm trying to edit. Are you using proxies?

                                           

                                          "I can guarantee that your current hard disk drives do not come any where near that 225/150 MB/second, with that general vintage and estimated price range of the Lenovo, you are more likely to have numbers slightly better than 1/2 that"...

                                           

                                          Oh, the hard drives predate the Lenovo. I don't remember how long I've had them, exactly, but I know I had them installed in my previous desktop. Looking up their specs, I see that the C drive (1TB) is SATA III and 7200RPM, but the project drive (2TB) is SATA II, 5900RPM.

                                           

                                          I have some other platter drives here and I can experiment with them, but I do plan to get an SSD in the near future.

                                          • 18. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                            RjL190365 Level 5

                                            In your situation (already having that GTX 560 2GB card laying around in your spare parts box), then yes, try that first before you spend another penny on a newer GPU.

                                            • 19. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                              Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                              Clay201b  wrote

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              As luck would have it, XAVC-S from a Sony camera is exactly what I'm trying to edit. Are you using proxies?

                                               

                                              Oh, the hard drives predate the Lenovo. I don't remember how long I've had them, exactly, but I know I had them installed in my previous desktop. Looking up their specs, I see that the C drive (1TB) is SATA III and 7200RPM, but the project drive (2TB) is SATA II, 5900RPM.

                                               

                                              I have some other platter drives here and I can experiment with them, but I do plan to get an SSD in the near future.

                                              No Proxies here

                                              That SATA II 5900 rpm drive is completely hopeless.  Move to SSD's especially for your project/media drive

                                              • 20. Re: GTX 560. How much will it help?
                                                RjL190365 Level 5

                                                RjL190365  wrote

                                                 

                                                In your situation (already having that GTX 560 2GB card laying around in your spare parts box), then yes, try that first before you spend another penny on a newer GPU.

                                                A major update on legacy Fermi GPU support:

                                                 

                                                If one is still on a Fermi GPU, be advised that WHQL driver releases after version 391.35 from this past March will no longer support Fermi GPUs. There may be versions 391.4x to 395.99 between now and this coming January for Fermi GPUs, but they will only include critical security patches (no added support or bug fixes). Beginning with WHQL version 397.64 which came out earlier this month, a Kepler or later generation GPU is required. And versions of Premiere Pro CC that are slated to be released sometime after January 2019 will no longer support Fermi-generation GPUs for CUDA MPE GPU acceleration; instead, Premiere will be "permanently" locked to the MPE software-only mode with a Fermi GPU as the newer versions of Premiere will then require driver version 396 or later to even enable CUDA MPE GPU acceleration at all.