14 Replies Latest reply on Feb 15, 2018 3:08 AM by Jim Wilde

    Lightroom CC under the hood?

    jimac1953 Level 1

      I’ve been experimenting with the new Cloud Based Lightroom CC and trying to figure out what is so new about it that Adobe had to create a whole new desktop app to implement what is new. I’m a pretty good Lightroom user, I have a good understanding of the traditional catalog and file system and I’ve been pretty successful  in syncing files to the mobile  apps using the old Smart Preview process.

       

      I have around 5K images synched from my desktop to my iPad and iPhone and the whole process works really well. I like being able to browse, sort and edit images on my mobile devices. I loaded the desktop CC app on my Mac and to me it just looked like the same thing I had on my iPad. I was a little afraid that Adobe had taken up the Apple approach of dumbing down their desktop apps to look and function like their mobile apps. I decided to migrate a test  catalog into the desktop CC app to see if that would reveal anything new. I made a test catalog of around 50 images to experiment with. I had some problems getting it to work. For one thing I had to open the new catalog the LR Classic before it would load. Once it did load, I started to play around with it and noticed a few things. The new images showed up in LR CC on all my devices along with all the previously synced images. Also, during the migration LR CC had made a copy of all 50 imager to a new location. After looking around on the web a little I found out I could delete those duplicate images, which I did with no ill effects. I guess  LR CC needs to create the duplicate images for some reason which I can’t seem to find out anything about, but those images are never used by LR CC again. I also noticed there is also a “Lightroom Library.lrlibrary” file in my pictures directory. I googled this file but I can’t find anything about it. I guess it’s an image library similar to the one used by Apple Photos, but that is just a guess. I also noticed there is a Lightroom CC folder that is used to download and locally store original images from the cloud when I edit them in LR CC. It also appears that the process used by LR CC, regardless if it’s on my mac or my mobile devices is different for the files loaded under LR CC and those that were originally synced using Lightroom Classic. The two process can co-exist, but images worked on under one process are separate and not shared with the other process. Seems like you take one or the other.

       

      I wish Adobe would tell us more about what is going on under the hood. I’ve really tried to find out more, but I didn’t find it easy to put together much more than the PR about the cloud and basic step by step instructions for how to load images into LR CC. I really like Lightrooml and this new process for Lightroom looks interesting, but I just wish I wasn’t so in the dark about what is happening locally as well as cloud wise and what the future holds for the two different processes moving into the future. If there is more info on these topics please point me in the right direction.

        • 1. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
          selondon Adobe Community Professional

          Hi jimac,

           

          long and interesting post that requires a lot of answers, but these videos are an interesting place to start.....

           

          Lightroom CC 2017 - YouTube

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
            Neox99 Level 4

            lightroom cc tutorial - YouTube

             

            Search Julieanne Kost and Terry White on YouTube

             

            Julieanne Kost, Principal Digital Imaging Evangelist, Adobe Systems, Inc.

             

            lynda.com has complete courses on the subject.

             

            But, from reading your OP, i get the impression you want someone to roll it all into 1 tutorial package that fits your desires.  Ain't gonna happen.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
              Jim Wilde Adobe Community Professional

              jimac1953  wrote

               

              I have around 5K images synched from my desktop to my iPad and iPhone and the whole process works really well. I like being able to browse, sort and edit images on my mobile devices. I loaded the desktop CC app on my Mac and to me it just looked like the same thing I had on my iPad. I was a little afraid that Adobe had taken up the Apple approach of dumbing down their desktop apps to look and function like their mobile apps. I decided to migrate a test  catalog into the desktop CC app to see if that would reveal anything new. I made a test catalog of around 50 images to experiment with. I had some problems getting it to work. For one thing I had to open the new catalog the LR Classic before it would load. Once it did load, I started to play around with it and noticed a few things. The new images showed up in LR CC on all my devices along with all the previously synced images. Also, during the migration LR CC had made a copy of all 50 imager to a new location. After looking around on the web a little I found out I could delete those duplicate images, which I did with no ill effects. I guess  LR CC needs to create the duplicate images for some reason which I can’t seem to find out anything about, but those images are never used by LR CC again. I also noticed there is also a “Lightroom Library.lrlibrary” file in my pictures directory. I googled this file but I can’t find anything about it. I guess it’s an image library similar to the one used by Apple Photos, but that is just a guess. I also noticed there is a Lightroom CC folder that is used to download and locally store original images from the cloud when I edit them in LR CC. It also appears that the process used by LR CC, regardless if it’s on my mac or my mobile devices is different for the files loaded under LR CC and those that were originally synced using Lightroom Classic. The two process can co-exist, but images worked on under one process are separate and not shared with the other process. Seems like you take one or the other.

               

              I haven't checked out those links that the others have provided, so I don't know it they've answered your questions.

               

              So if it helps, I'm happy to try to answer some of the indirect questions that you've asked here:

               

              1. Yes, the LRCC desktop app has been designed (and LR for mobile has been re-designed) so that there is a common look and feel when using any of the LRCC apps, no matter which device or browser you might be using. I'm sure some pros will regard this as "dumbing down", though I prefer to think it as "simplifying" to make them more appealing to the target audience (which in the first version at least is NOT the working professional). There are a lot of potential users, who want to be mobile, but equally would like to do some editing on the many pictures they take, and who have been put off by the perceived complexity of Lightroom with its requirements for file and catalog management.

               

              2. Following on from that, it then becomes more logical when thinking about why LRCC on the desktop copies existing hard drive images when they are imported/added. Those images may well be currently "managed" by a different app (be that Lightroom Classic, or Capture 1, or ON1, etc.), so it makes sense (to me at least) for LRCC to start with a copy of those images which it can be more certain will not be removed/renamed/deleted during what could be a very lengthy upload process. To say that those copied images will not be used again may be incorrect.....there is an LRCC option to store a copy of all originals locally, if that option is checked that initial copy would form part of those stored local copies.

               

              3. The "Lightroom Library.lrlibrary" is effectively the local version of the LRCC "catalog/cache", i.e. image/album/folder information, stored thumbnails and smart previews, and the default location for any locally stored originals. Note that a different name and default location is used under Windows 10. In line with the thinking of obscuring "catalog management", the only thing a user needs to concern themselves with is the space impact of the catalog/cache on the main system drive (which is the default location), and controls to manage this can be found on the LRCC Preferences>Local Storage tab. It's also possible to relocate any stored originals to a different drive (but cannot be a NAS), and if you change the location after some originals have already been stored locally then you'll see that LRCC will move them to the new location, no user involvement is needed. One other thing.....although the more savvy user will be thinking about maintaining their own backups of the "library", it really isn't necessary as it can be recreated from the cloud if needed, i.e. delete the "library", restart LRCC and the "library" is automatically rebuilt....though of course there'll be some download activity as the thumbnails/previews caches are rebuilt.

               

              4. I'm not 100% certain what your last point about "different processes" means, but yes there are some differences between what happens if uploading a file from Classic or from any of the LRCC apps (desktop, phone, tablet, Web). If you set an image file to sync from within LR Classic, only a Smart Preview will be uploaded. The file will show up in the same collection/album across the whole eco-system, but it'll only exist as that Smart Preview. It can be edited in exactly the same way as an original file, but when it comes to downloading/sharing from any LRCC app the full resolution is not available, the max file size is limited to 2650 long edge. When you upload from any of the LRCC apps, however, the full-size original is always uploaded into the cloud (though it is possible to only subsequently download/view a Smart Preview of that original in LRCC for desktop and LRCC for phone/tablet). In LR Classic, however, that full original will be downloaded into whatever location you have set in the LR Classic>Preferences>Lightroom Sync tab. That copy of the original is separate and independent of any locally stored copy which LRCC may be "managing".

               

              5. Other differences are centred around the fact that the LRCC apps are full members of the cloud eco-system, but LR Classic is not (it's more of an associate member). As a consequence, some things do not sync between Classic and the cloud, notably keywords and location data (GPS coordinates DO sync if they exist in Classic, but not any data in the "Location" fields), but they will sync between the LRCC apps. One current useful piece of information is that when initiating syncing of images from LR Classic to the cloud, IF the metadata held in the Classic catalog is written to XMP (either automatically or by Ctrl/Cmd+S) BEFORE initiating sync, then all that existing metadata (including keywords and location data) will be uploaded to the cloud and will thus be available in any of the LRCC apps.. Note, though, that is a one-way, one-time transfer, there is no subsequent syncing of that data between Classic and LRCC.

               

              Hope that helps.

              2 people found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                99jon Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                The above is a good description of what is happening under the hood. It is worth bearing in mind that Lr CC is managing proxies intelligently in order to use the minimum footprint necessary on your devices and computer. So whilst initial import will take up room on your hard drive, those originals, once sync’d to the cloud, will drop out of the cache unless actively being edited. As mentioned by Jim, you have more storage controls in the latest version of Lr CC.

                • 5. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                  davids74742610

                  I just happened upon this.

                   

                  So are you saying, that lets ay I import 30k images to start (from an external drive) and suddenly my main HD is showing its magically 80gb fuller than it was...that 80gb will dissipate as everything is uploaded and syncs to the cloud, meaning I will regain most if not all of that 80gb?

                  • 6. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                    99jon Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Yes. In fact after everything is in the cloud you can delete originals from the Lr CC cache if you don't want to wait.

                    • 7. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                      Neox99 Level 4

                      30k images being synced to a system that is barely 1 update out of beta?

                      Ya got more guts than I.

                      • 8. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                        davids74742610 Level 1

                        Not really...found it all buggy and half baked. Quit and went back to classic until I find another alternative so I can dump adobe all together.

                        • 9. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                          Jim Wilde Adobe Community Professional

                          Neox99  wrote

                           

                          30k images being synced to a system that is barely 1 update out of beta?

                          Ya got more guts than I.

                          Well, the new LRCC app is just the latest in a series of entry points to the Adobe cloud eco-system, which itself has been in existence for over 4 years now. I have (only) 13k images in the cloud, and they've been up there for a lot longer than LRCC for desktop. LRCC does not manage the images, the Adobe cloud does.

                           

                          I rarely use LRCC on my Mac, which is where my main LR Classic system lives, but I do use it frequently on my Windows system where I can access all my synced images.

                           

                          I don't see any risk in using a 1.1 application, given the above context.

                          • 10. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                            selondon Adobe Community Professional

                            I think their Cloud system is pretty robust and mature.

                             

                            Adobe Carousel launched in 2011 and they changed the name to Revel a year later. I had 28gb up there since 2013 and rarely had an issue.

                             

                            Lightroom CC seems to use the same base technology but obviously an upgrade in features.

                             

                            Saying that though, syncing with ‘Classic’ has provided problems for many since the inception of Lr Mobile and unfortunately a smoother sync doesn’t look like a task that Adobe are going to put at the top of any list.

                            • 11. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                              jimac1953 Level 1

                              Thanks to everyone for all the great info, it really helped. Jim Wilde really gave some great information. I’ve continued to experiment with LR CC and I think I’m starting to understand how the cloud thing works. I think it really is meant to minimize folder/file management and make it more transparent to the user. I’ve found you don’t even need to have any of your files on your desktop computer for the app to work. It will download what it needs from the cloud as it needs it. Users will still need to be able to manage file usage on local drives but hopefully LR CC will give some more options there. In all my messing around I have managed to get a “Some photos invalid” error in the cloud sync icon in the upper right hand corner, but I have no idea which photos those might be and I haven’t been able to find the it effects the use of LR CC at all. But there must be something going on there. It did have some performances problems. I have a really great internet connection, but upload speeds are always much slower than download speeds. I took about 350 images on a daylong hike and uploading them into LR CC went pretty much like LR Classic, but uploading to the cloud took almost all night so files weren't available on my ipad until late that night or the next day.

                               

                              After all that though, I still don t get the point. I think Adobe released LRCC to get the opinions of users so here is mine. A cloud based file system may be part of a good backup system or a means of sharing data, but I don’t see how it is an improvement as the core file management replacement for a working application that, for me at least, has an already really good file/catalog and file syncing workflow. I love my iOS LR apps. They work quickly and effectively as they are. I think LR on the iOS is the best photo app for iOS out there and its working integration to Lightroom Classic App on the desktop is just great. As good as LR CC on iOS is I just don’t see how putting that iOS app on the desktop computer is an improvement. It seems to me that LR CC should be (and I hope is) a totally new app targeted at those users who want to be more mobile, similar to Photoshop Fix or Photoshop Sketch and not an indication of what Adobe sees as Lightroom’s future. So I hope the cloud storage becomes an option that a user can choose to share and backup files and not a requirement that a user has to adopt in order to use LR at all.

                              • 12. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                                Jim Wilde Adobe Community Professional

                                jimac1953  wrote

                                 

                                After all that though, I still don t get the point. I think Adobe released LRCC to get the opinions of users so here is mine. A cloud based file system may be part of a good backup system or a means of sharing data, but I don’t see how it is an improvement as the core file management replacement for a working application that, for me at least, has an already really good file/catalog and file syncing workflow. I love my iOS LR apps. They work quickly and effectively as they are. I think LR on the iOS is the best photo app for iOS out there and its working integration to Lightroom Classic App on the desktop is just great. As good as LR CC on iOS is I just don’t see how putting that iOS app on the desktop computer is an improvement. It seems to me that LR CC should be (and I hope is) a totally new app targeted at those users who want to be more mobile, similar to Photoshop Fix or Photoshop Sketch and not an indication of what Adobe sees as Lightroom’s future. So I hope the cloud storage becomes an option that a user can choose to share and backup files and not a requirement that a user has to adopt in order to use LR at all.

                                I think you actually have got the point, even though you say you don't. Yes, LRCC and cloud storage/access won't be for everyone, but Adobe are betting that there are sufficient numbers of potential users who DO want all their images in the cloud that they can access from anywhere, and DO want access to good and easy to use editing tools (same tools and look and feel on all devices), but have been put off by the thoughts of the Lightroom catalog and the problems (to them) of file and folder management. In that context LRCC on desktop fits the bill. It clearly isn't (yet) the tool for the power-using professional with many TBs of images, though many are already finding potential use as a "travel catalog". It'll be interesting to see how it all develops over the next year or two.

                                • 13. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                                  Fletch899

                                  Hi - I have been reading this and seeing that folks have migrated several hundred photos - maybe 30k in images.  I think I was foolish.  Since I need lightroom accessible in 2 different desktops at 2 different locations I signed up for the 1 TB plan this past Sunday and migrated more than 10,000 images from Classic to CC and the cloud.  It took more than 24 hours.  Now, every time I try to access images to develop them either on cc or Classic it takes FOREVER to load.  I think it is not done synching but I am not sure.  I am finding this very difficult and thought I would go back to Classic and forget the cloud and just buy an external hard drive and bring it back and forth between locations.  But I am afraid of trying to undo what I just did and afraid that I will lose everything. 

                                   

                                  any thoughts would be appreciated. 

                                   

                                  thank you.

                                  • 14. Re: Lightroom CC under the hood?
                                    Jim Wilde Adobe Community Professional

                                    Fletch899  wrote

                                     

                                    Hi - I have been reading this and seeing that folks have migrated several hundred photos - maybe 30k in images.  I think I was foolish.  Since I need lightroom accessible in 2 different desktops at 2 different locations I signed up for the 1 TB plan this past Sunday and migrated more than 10,000 images from Classic to CC and the cloud.  It took more than 24 hours.  Now, every time I try to access images to develop them either on cc or Classic it takes FOREVER to load.  I think it is not done synching but I am not sure.  I am finding this very difficult and thought I would go back to Classic and forget the cloud and just buy an external hard drive and bring it back and forth between locations.  But I am afraid of trying to undo what I just did and afraid that I will lose everything. 

                                     

                                    any thoughts would be appreciated. 

                                     

                                    thank you.

                                    A couple of things:

                                     

                                    1. The migration tool is meant to be used ONLY when a user has decided to completely switch from Classic to LRCC. Whilst you can, after the migration, re-enable the Classic catalog to sync again, it may work OK or it may produce some odd results. In short, it's not been designed to work that way, so you may be lucky, or you may not be. I've tested this scenario a couple of times, but with varying results, which makes me very wary of recommending it (no problem with using the migration tool, it's the consequences of re-enabling the Classic catalog to sync that may be unpredictable).

                                     

                                    2. The delays you are experiencing are indeed likely because both apps are still syncing (they should be showing you that). In Classic you can pause syncing, which should allow you to carry on working there without delays. You can pause syncing in LRCC as well, but it's best to leave one of them syncing until it all gets uploaded.

                                     

                                    3. I don't think you were foolish, but maybe a bit too hasty. You mention Classic, so I therefore assume you had the Photography Plan. This provides Classic, Photoshop, and the new LRCC and 20gb of cloud storage space. The 20gb isn't a lot, but it certainly is enough for the user to look at what LRCC offers, and gives the user time to figure out if/how LRCC could factor into their workflow. Once figured out, that would be the time to decide if you need only LRCC, or still need Classic only, or Classic/LRCC combined with additional cloud storage space.

                                     

                                    4. Given your need for Lightroom on two different desktops at different locations, there are several ways to achieve that. One, as you already mention, would be to put catalog and images on an external drive which you switch between the two locations, thus you would only need Classic in that scenario. Or you could, using the existing Photography Plan, sync all your images from the Classic catalog to the cloud....these would upload as Smart Previews only, thus don't count against your cloud allowance. Then you could use the LRCC desktop app on the other computer to give you access to all those smart previews (which would generally be good enough for viewing and most edits). You'd also have all of them available on any mobile devices as well. There are other things you could also do, such as uploading all 10k images as full originals (which is what you're currently doing), which means you can work on the original file on any of your synced devices. But that's the sort of experimentation you could have done using just the Photography Plan, before jumping straight to a 1tb plan.

                                     

                                    Hope that helps.

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