24 Replies Latest reply on Aug 10, 2008 8:50 AM by Paevo Kelley

    Webassist-type products

    Paevo Kelley Level 2
      I am still trying to narrow down options in order to streamline workflow and was considering purchasing the Webassist super suite. I am afraid apart from Wordpress, I really despise tinkering with Open Source CMS software solutions, searching for a template, messing around with the CSS, and hoping the stinking mess will function in the end... Takes all the fun out of web design... Can anyone out there say that they have effectively replaced all (or nearly all) of the functionalities of a Joomla-style CMS using a variety of WebAssist-style DW extensions?
        • 1. Re: Webassist-type products
          Level 7
          Paevo Kelley wrote:
          > I am still trying to narrow down options in order to streamline workflow and
          > was considering purchasing the Webassist super suite. I am afraid apart from
          > Wordpress, I really despise tinkering with Open Source CMS software solutions,
          > searching for a template, messing around with the CSS, and hoping the stinking
          > mess will function in the end... Takes all the fun out of web design... Can
          > anyone out there say that they have effectively replaced all (or nearly all) of
          > the functionalities of a Joomla-style CMS using a variety of WebAssist-style DW
          > extensions?

          You will never be able to do a Joomla-style website with just
          extensions. Its just not doable, as they can be so complicated.

          I have the super suite, and whilst I have used a lot of it, I don't use
          as much as I used to. This is mainly down to my job changing and the
          focus moving to more SQL based apps which need more hand coding. It is a
          great suite to help you learn tho, as you will have to tinker when it
          doesn't do everything you need.

          Be prepared to learn, and to get frustrated, but you should benefit from
          it.... but I still don't think you will be able to put the man hours in
          to a CMS that the combined efforts of the Joomla community have.

          You need to see where it has come from to fully appreciate Joomla. It
          used to be called Mambo, and when the core developers ran out of time
          and energy to develop it, some hard code fans took it on and made
          Joomla. Since then success of Joomla, Mambo has suddenly started to be
          developed again. Funny that :)

          Anyway, waffle as I may, the hours of dedication that has been put into
          Joomla is well worth the investment of a good Joomla book to help you
          get it straight in your head. Thats how I started to tinker with it...I
          really need to finish reading the book and get on with a couple of
          projects too, but they can wait until my summer holiday has come and gone.

          Steve
          • 2. Re: Webassist-type products
            Level 7
            > You need to see where it has come from to fully appreciate Joomla. It used
            > to be called Mambo, and when the core developers ran out of time and
            > energy to develop it, some hard code fans took it on and made Joomla.
            > Since then success of Joomla, Mambo has suddenly started to be developed
            > again. Funny that :)

            I thought it was more of a hostile fork, where the founding company pissed
            off most of the OS community, so they forked the project?

            -Darrel


            • 3. Re: Webassist-type products
              Level 7
              darrel wrote:
              >> You need to see where it has come from to fully appreciate Joomla. It
              >> used to be called Mambo, and when the core developers ran out of time
              >> and energy to develop it, some hard code fans took it on and made
              >> Joomla. Since then success of Joomla, Mambo has suddenly started to be
              >> developed again. Funny that :)
              >
              > I thought it was more of a hostile fork, where the founding company
              > pissed off most of the OS community, so they forked the project?
              >
              > -Darrel

              Could well be, the book I read could be making it up or smoothing over
              the cracks.

              Steve
              • 4. Re: Webassist-type products
                Paevo Kelley Level 2
                "I really need to finish reading the book and get on with a couple of
                projects too"

                So does this mean you're not able to build Joomla sites? I've actually been saying the same thing for over a year now, and after two books on Joomla, setting it up, etc., I realized that the extensions--the few that have been upgraded to the new 1.5 version--more often than not are pay-per-site crap... So after the nightmare of dealing with Joomla, you've got to fork over a few hundred dollars per site? Ridiculous...
                • 5. Re: Webassist-type products
                  Paevo Kelley Level 2
                  I'd like to think that DWCS5 will come outfitted with industry-specific templates already equipped with the same kind of PHP modules that Joomla has... That would be great!... By then, Joomla may very well be defunct, and a lot of non-100% PHP-fluent web developers are going to be up the creek...
                  • 6. Re: Webassist-type products
                    Level 7
                    > I'd like to think that DWCS5 will come outfitted with industry-specific
                    > templates already equipped with the same kind of PHP modules that Joomla
                    > has...
                    > That would be great!

                    If that's what you want, you'd better take a number!

                    http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

                    --
                    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                    Adobe Community Expert
                    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                    ==================
                    http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                    http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                    ==================


                    "Paevo Kelley" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                    news:g7clgt$356$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                    > I'd like to think that DWCS5 will come outfitted with industry-specific
                    > templates already equipped with the same kind of PHP modules that Joomla
                    > has...
                    > That would be great!... By then, Joomla may very well be defunct, and a
                    > lot of
                    > non-100% PHP-fluent web developers are going to be up the creek...
                    >

                    • 7. Re: Webassist-type products
                      Level 7
                      > So after the nightmare of dealing with Joomla, you've got to fork over a
                      > few
                      > hundred dollars per site? Ridiculous...

                      A few hundred bucks for custom site features seems extremely reasonable
                      compared to spending the time and billing for custom development. How many
                      hours would it take for you to create them from scratch?

                      The power of something like Joomla is that if you decide to dedicate your
                      time to it, it becomes a very versatile tool. Over time, you can begin
                      reusing your knowledge quite efficiently.

                      -Darrel

                      • 8. Re: Webassist-type products
                        Level 7
                        > I'd like to think that DWCS5 will come outfitted with industry-specific
                        > templates already equipped with the same kind of PHP modules that Joomla
                        > has...
                        > That would be great!...

                        It would, but it'd be a pipe dream. An open source project like Joomla will
                        always be infinitely more versatile that something coming from a commercial
                        single source.

                        > and a lot of
                        > non-100% PHP-fluent web developers are going to be up the creek...

                        Joomla ain't going anywhere. Nor is Drupal. Or Wordpress, or any other of
                        the many big OS projects out there.

                        Adobe, on the other hand, has randomly killed all sorts of applications over
                        the years. ;o)

                        -Darrel

                        • 9. Re: Webassist-type products
                          Level 7
                          .oO(Dooza)

                          >darrel wrote:
                          >>> You need to see where it has come from to fully appreciate Joomla. It
                          >>> used to be called Mambo, and when the core developers ran out of time
                          >>> and energy to develop it, some hard code fans took it on and made
                          >>> Joomla. Since then success of Joomla, Mambo has suddenly started to be
                          >>> developed again. Funny that :)
                          >>
                          >> I thought it was more of a hostile fork, where the founding company
                          >> pissed off most of the OS community, so they forked the project?
                          >>
                          >> -Darrel
                          >
                          >Could well be, the book I read could be making it up or smoothing over
                          >the cracks.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joomla!#History

                          Micha
                          • 10. Re: Webassist-type products
                            Paevo Kelley Level 2
                            "An open source project like Joomla will
                            always be infinitely more versatile that something coming from a commercial
                            single source."

                            I understand what you mean, but this statement nonetheless defies logic; why pay for any software application if it is a priori less versatile than something free?
                            • 11. Re: Webassist-type products
                              Level 7
                              On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 23:17:34 +0000 (UTC), "Paevo Kelley"
                              <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                              >"An open source project like Joomla will
                              > always be infinitely more versatile that something coming from a commercial
                              > single source."
                              >
                              > I understand what you mean, but this statement nonetheless defies logic; why
                              >pay for any software application if it is a priori less versatile than
                              >something free?

                              I disagree on two counts.

                              With regards to WebAssist: they don't make a CMS product. They make
                              tools that help you build whatever you can imagine. NOTHING is more
                              versatile than being able to build whatever you want.

                              With regards to commercial CMS systems: I find Expression Engine to be
                              far more versatile than Joomla. *My* design, *my* layout, *my* CSS -
                              and their server-side hooks to bring content in.

                              IMO, Joomla's strength is not its versatility, it's that it is
                              pre-built and you don't have to do the heavy lifting. Much more
                              suitable for a non-coder.

                              Win
                              --
                              Win Day
                              Wild Rose Websites www.wildrosewebsites.com
                              windayNOSPAM@wildrosewebsites.com
                              • 12. Re: Webassist-type products
                                Level 7
                                Paevo Kelley wrote:
                                > "I really need to finish reading the book and get on with a couple of
                                > projects too"
                                >
                                > So does this mean you're not able to build Joomla sites? I've actually been
                                > saying the same thing for over a year now, and after two books on Joomla,
                                > setting it up, etc., I realized that the extensions--the few that have been
                                > upgraded to the new 1.5 version--more often than not are pay-per-site crap...
                                > So after the nightmare of dealing with Joomla, you've got to fork over a few
                                > hundred dollars per site? Ridiculous...

                                I can set them up no problem, I can add components no problem, and
                                change the layouts around using existing templates...but I have only
                                started to play with creating my own templates, but have read about
                                them, and plan to make my own very soon.

                                I don't generally bother with too many add ons, the free ones that I
                                have used seem ok so far.

                                Steve
                                • 13. Re: Webassist-type products
                                  Level 7
                                  Paevo Kelley wrote:
                                  > I'd like to think that DWCS5 will come outfitted with industry-specific
                                  > templates already equipped with the same kind of PHP modules that Joomla has...
                                  > That would be great!... By then, Joomla may very well be defunct, and a lot of
                                  > non-100% PHP-fluent web developers are going to be up the creek...
                                  >

                                  Have you seen this:
                                  http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,2356/Itemid, 35/

                                  Steve
                                  • 14. Re: Webassist-type products
                                    Paevo Kelley Level 2
                                    "Have you seen this:
                                    http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,2356/Itemid, 35/

                                    Steve"

                                    Yes, I installed it; not too terribly clear as to what to do with the bloody thing, though... No documentation as far as I can tell...
                                    • 15. Re: Webassist-type products
                                      Paevo Kelley Level 2
                                      "With regards to commercial CMS systems: I find Expression Engine to be
                                      far more versatile than Joomla. "

                                      And far more pricey!
                                      • 16. Re: Webassist-type products
                                        Level 7
                                        Paevo Kelley wrote:
                                        > "Have you seen this:
                                        >
                                        > http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,23
                                        > 56/Itemid,35/
                                        >
                                        > Steve"
                                        >
                                        > Yes, I installed it; not too terribly clear as to what to do with the bloody
                                        > thing, though... No documentation as far as I can tell...

                                        I think it just inserts the blocks of Joomla code where ever you want
                                        them to be, I think its more of a productivity tool than a wizard.

                                        I tried to look at the homepage for the extension but Firefox has warned
                                        me that the site has been blocked due to it being attacked is now
                                        dangerous to surf. I could ignore the warning, but since I am at work
                                        that is not advised.

                                        Once I get back from my hols I will re-read the Joomla 1.5 book, follow
                                        all 4 template tutorials, and then attempt to build my own. From my
                                        initial read it shouldn't be that hard as long as you have a firm grasp
                                        of CSS.

                                        Steve
                                        • 17. Re: Webassist-type products
                                          Paevo Kelley Level 2
                                          " I will re-read the Joomla 1.5 book, "

                                          Which one? The Barrie North book or the Rahmel one? I've found neither to be particularly helpful when it comes to actually creating and/or heavily modifying templates...
                                          • 18. Re: Webassist-type products
                                            Level 7
                                            Paevo Kelley wrote:
                                            > " I will re-read the Joomla 1.5 book, "
                                            >
                                            > Which one? The Barrie North book or the Rahmel one? I've found neither to be
                                            > particularly helpful when it comes to actually creating and/or heavily
                                            > modifying templates...

                                            Its the Barrie North one. I found the book very useful, before I
                                            couldn't even get my head around how it worked, but once a few key
                                            points had been explained it all fitted into place.

                                            One thing that did piss me off was the free template that was supposed
                                            to be native 1.5. It wasn't fully working, as it was a beta of the
                                            template that was still being worked on. Its supposed to be a free
                                            commercial template, but could I get support from the makers? Nope, no
                                            one was interested at all in helping me make it work as advertised. Just
                                            cos it was free with the book, doesn't mean I don't get support. And
                                            when the full 1.5 version was released commercially, it worked but
                                            didn't have the same code as the template, so nothing to compare it with
                                            to get mine working. Grrr!

                                            Steve
                                            • 19. Re: Webassist-type products
                                              Level 7
                                              Site web address
                                              How he updates this site: is it built on a content management system
                                              (if so, which one); does he update each file with an HTML editor
                                              (direct on the site, or does he download and update locally, and then
                                              post the files back up; which HTML editor does he use)
                                              On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 13:14:49 +0000 (UTC), "Paevo Kelley"
                                              <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                                              >"With regards to commercial CMS systems: I find Expression Engine to be
                                              >far more versatile than Joomla. "
                                              >
                                              >And far more pricey!


                                              The core version of EE is free. Any client who needs the expanded
                                              capabilities of the commercial version can surely afford the $249 site
                                              license.

                                              Win
                                              --
                                              Win Day
                                              Wild Rose Websites www.wildrosewebsites.com
                                              windayNOSPAM@wildrosewebsites.com
                                              • 20. Re: Webassist-type products
                                                Paevo Kelley Level 2
                                                This is precisely the kind of thing that makes me think that Joomla is at least partially a scam... And I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of extensions will ever be upgraded to the 1.5 version...
                                                • 21. Re: Webassist-type products
                                                  Level 7
                                                  On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 18:11:07 +0000 (UTC), "Paevo Kelley"
                                                  <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                                                  >This is precisely the kind of thing that makes me think that Joomla is at least
                                                  >partially a scam... And I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of extensions
                                                  >will ever be upgraded to the 1.5 version...

                                                  Why would you think Joomla is a scam? While it doesn't suit my needs,
                                                  or those of my clients, it sure provides an effective solution for an
                                                  awful lot of people.

                                                  Many of the commercial extensions available for Joomla (or Wordpress,
                                                  or Drupal, or any of the other open source CMS products) are bits and
                                                  pieces that were created by dedicated users of that system to solve a
                                                  problem or add functionality that THEY required. They then package up
                                                  the add-on and make it available either free or commercially.

                                                  There are free and commercial add-ons for Expression Engine too. There
                                                  are also free and commercial add-ons for Dreamweaver.

                                                  Not sure where you're going here, or why. Folks who aren't PHP
                                                  developers can manage their way around many CMS products. And they
                                                  don't have the expertise to use, for example, the WebAssist extensions
                                                  or a product like Expression Engine.

                                                  Whatever works - works being the operative word.

                                                  Win
                                                  --
                                                  Win Day
                                                  Wild Rose Websites www.wildrosewebsites.com
                                                  windayNOSPAM@wildrosewebsites.com
                                                  • 22. Re: Webassist-type products
                                                    Paevo Kelley Level 2
                                                    "Why would you think Joomla is a scam? While it doesn't suit my needs,
                                                    or those of my clients, it sure provides an effective solution for an
                                                    awful lot of people."

                                                    How could Joomla not suit your needs? Are dynamic Web 2.0 applications not necessary for the kind of sites you develop?
                                                    • 23. Re: Webassist-type products
                                                      Level 7
                                                      On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 20:56:12 +0000 (UTC), "Paevo Kelley"
                                                      <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                                                      >"Why would you think Joomla is a scam? While it doesn't suit my needs,
                                                      > or those of my clients, it sure provides an effective solution for an
                                                      > awful lot of people."
                                                      >
                                                      > How could Joomla not suit your needs? Are dynamic Web 2.0 applications not
                                                      >necessary for the kind of sites you develop?

                                                      Huh? What does question 2 have to do with question 1?

                                                      Win
                                                      --
                                                      Win Day
                                                      Wild Rose Websites www.wildrosewebsites.com
                                                      windayNOSPAM@wildrosewebsites.com
                                                      • 24. Re: Webassist-type products
                                                        Paevo Kelley Level 2
                                                        Non sequitur, I suppose... No, I simply think that Joomla is more trouble than it's worth, UNLESS you simply use it with a couple of tried and true extensions that actually work. Check out their extensions list; 90% are not even updated to run with the new version 1.5. And yet, all the books on Joomla tout the 1.5 version as the be all and end all of web design. That is at the very least a less-than-honest way to promote an open source software solution...