33 Replies Latest reply on Nov 16, 2018 8:26 AM by chrisw44157881

    P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift

    Lucasenglund Level 1

      I found out a few weeks ago that the colors in Premiere doesn't look the same after export.

      There's a huge gamma shift, and i later on found out this is due to the P3 Gamma on most Macs later than 2015 that PP can't handle.

       

      So, right now i'm on a $9,000 iMac Pro and i can't use it professionally as Premiere doesn't show what's actually happening in the grade.

       

      I know there's a few workarounds with different LUT's etc, but they're not 100% accurate and it's not really an acceptable workflow after paying loads of money on high end computers and software. It's so damn frustrating. I don't want to switch to FCPX, but i can't deal with this for much longer.

       

      So, is there any real solution on this problem, except getting an external display?
      I recently tweeted Adobe about it, so i'm hoping to actually get an answer on this topic.
      And hopefully a date for when the support for color management will be out.

       

      I'm 100% sure about the problem as i've been researching and testing everything out. So please avoid claiming that the problem is something else

       

       

      Skärmavbild 2018-04-10 kl. 23.18.35.png

        • 1. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
          Jim_Simon Level 9

          I think Jamie LeJeune has it right in the following thread from the Blackmagic forums.  He's specifically talking about Resolve, but the idea holds true for all NLEs.  The upshot is, "The only image you can trust is to run SDI out to an accurately calibrated reference monitor."

           

          http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=68410

          • 2. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
            R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            PrPro doesn't have options for user-settings for color management. It's a Rec709 app, which means sRGB, the standard for professional video production.

             

            Your fancy Mac doesn't give you the options to set color profiles either. I notice people tend to complain about Adobe not offering options when their gear doesn't allow options either. Seems strange to me, both ends could ameliorate the problem.

             

            Using the new 'UserVoice' feedback system, go search for color management requests ... and pile on. We do need more control in PrPro.

             

            Neil

             

            Adobe Bug /Feature Request form: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro

            • 3. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
              Lucasenglund Level 1

              Well, it doesn't matter how calibrated my display is if Premiere can't handle the gamma. And that's where the problem is.
              No matter what gamma i chose my display to work in, Premiere will just ignore it

              • 4. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                Lucasenglund Level 1

                I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. I can switch between loads of different color profiles for my display, but that won't change anything as Premiere i just ignoring it all? Everything except the playback in Premiere changes when i switch between color profiles.

                • 5. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                  R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  From everything I've been told, your Mac's monitor stays pretty much P3 ... which isn't something that PrPro works with.

                   

                  PrPro works in sRGB ... period.

                   

                  Unfortunately, that's not something you can get around other than as Jim suggests, having a separate monitor that can be set for sRGB and preferably run by an external box. Although one can get by with an external calibrated computer monitor of very good quality ... with the understanding ... that you need to constantly test your exports on a full b-cast setup TV monitor to have any confidence your color/tonal work is usable.

                   

                  Neil

                  • 6. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                    Conrad C Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  wrote

                    Your fancy Mac doesn't give you the options to set color profiles either. I notice people tend to complain about Adobe not offering options when their gear doesn't allow options either. Seems strange to me, both ends could ameliorate the problem.

                    That's not quite what's going on; it's kind of a subtle but important distinction. Both Windows and macOS do allow you to apply a display profile, in very similar ways (system settings). But that won't solve this problem. The job of a display profile is to tell the system what the actual gamut of the display is. In other words, applying a profile only describes the behavior of a display, but can't change it. As in Windows, if you have a display that is not sRGB and you apply an sRGB profile to it, you're giving the system incorrect information about the display and color will probably look wrong. So setting color profiles in the system does not solve this problem on Windows or Mac.

                     

                    What would actually make Premiere Pro look right is to change the actual gamut that a Mac P3 display shows, to be able to switch it to sRGB in hardware. But this a rare feature on both Windows and Mac. No Mac with a built-in wide-gamut display is able to restrict its gamut to sRGB, but the Microsoft Surface Studio desktop appears to be able to. The usual place that you find this feature is on better wide-gamut third-party displays like the NEC SpectraView, BenQ SW, or Eizo CG lines; you can switch between wide gamut and sRGB (and sometimes Rec.709) in the display, and that works with both Windows PCs and Macs.

                     

                    But because it's so rare to be sitting in front of a monitor where you can switch the gamut in hardware, the best solution for most Premiere Pro users would be for Premiere Pro to support color management like After Effects and the Adobe non-video applications (Photoshop, Illustrator...) have for years. Or to hook it up to a display known to be hardware calibrated to sRGB/Rec. 709.

                    • 7. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                      Lucasenglund Level 1

                      Hmm, i'm actually not sure about that as the colors in every other program than Premiere changes when i switch color profile on my computer. That's how i preview and work on photos that are going to be printed in a specific ICC profile.

                       

                      So, i guess i will have to get a sRGB display until Adobe releases support for color management within Premiere just like in AE.
                      I don't get why i would need to test my exports on a tv monitor if i have a monitor that shows the correct colors in Premiere though?
                      Cuz that's what i do now. I grade my work, export the shot to view it as it will look, and then go back to tweak it. It's a nightmare

                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 8. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                        R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Thanks for the knowledgeable correction/addition and advice!

                         

                        So ... yea ... what he said! 

                         

                        Neil

                        • 9. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                          mssngpeces

                          @lucase8052786

                           

                          Hey guys. I'm stuck on the same issue. Just purchases a new iMac for the purpose of premiere editing and am shocked that I can't figure this out. When I export, I get dramatic gamma shifts compared to the preview image in premiere. I've tried to calibrate my mac and have used the sRGB profile that the computer comes with. That seems to help with the difference between the preview and the export, but I am still getting a dramatic shift when I watch the video on say an iPhone. Everything seems to be darker and more saturated when on my mac vs other displays.

                           

                          Is there no answer? How are colorists works with these new iMacs? What can I do?

                          • 10. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                            Lucasenglund Level 1

                            The problem is within Premiere, not you iMac.

                            It doesn't matter what display profile you use on your iMac as Premiere will ignore it as it's straight Rec 709 no matter what.

                            I've got the same problem. So my solution until Adobe fixes color management for Premiere (Like AE, PS etc has) is that i'm buying a regular sRGB monitor online. Uses it for three weeks, getting it refunded and sending it back, then ordering a new one from another store.
                            I don't wanna buy a separate monitor when i've got an iMac Pro for $8 000, so that's my solution until Adobe fixes the problem, haha.

                             

                             

                            It works with our customer laws in sweden, not sure about your country.

                            • 11. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                              chrisw44157881 Level 4

                              in a pinch, a transform lut p3 to rec. 709 would work, but you'd have to combine it with a calibrated lut as well or on top since color profiling is disabled.

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                How are colorists working with the new iMacs? Quite a few, quite bluntly ... aren't. Colorists have  been about the most Mac-centric group around. But after five years without any new serious gear, and so many changes in the software/cameras/codecs, most of the colorists I know have not only abandoned the very limited Mac world, but are teaching it at NAB & other places. For the same cash, you coulda got a real monster built. Much heavier specs. Ah well.

                                 

                                Robbie Carman, among many others. And he was about as Mac-centric as you can get.

                                 

                                So ... you chose to buy an expensive machine that comes blatantly with severe limits on what you can do with and to it. And want the software to make up for the lack of controls in that limited machine. To me, that seems like buying a low-slung racing car and then being surprised it can't do off-road rutted tracks stuff. But realistically, if you've been in that multiverse all your life, it probably seems normal. Sadly, Apple used to really provide support for the graphics arts area, which was cool. But now, they're into "devices". Again, sad to see.

                                 

                                That said, PrPro does need to start offering color management controls for the users, especially with HDR coming ... and it is coming, soon. Unlike 3D, HDR is actually becoming used in consumer broadcasts. Wider gamuts also are making their way into consumer gear, so at some point, the sRGB of Rec709 won't be The Standard for professional video.

                                 

                                So pile onto the user voice feedback system asking for color management settings in PrPro. Search for color management controls, you'll probably see a number of requests to add your voice to.

                                 

                                Neil

                                 

                                Adobe Bug /Feature Request form: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 13. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                  R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  The problem is within Premiere, not you iMac.

                                   

                                  So, the machine has no user controls, costs about 2-3 times as much as an equivalent PC for gear, and .... it's not the fault of the gear ... or the person choosing the gear. A fascinating viewpoint.

                                   

                                  Understand, I'm also advocating for giving the user control management settings ... we do need them. I'm just not so enamored of spending so much for such a limited machine that's not very user-friendly for mods & configuration. Apple used to make great gear for the graphics artist.They're into Devices now, not the real pro graphics artist. Which is quite sad, even for a pc person like me. That was so cool.

                                   

                                  But every bodies mileage always varies.

                                   

                                  Neil

                                  • 14. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                    Thiago Kume Level 1

                                    Same problem! i buy iMac Pro and I noticed this problem...

                                    in my thunderboltdisplay is working normal, but in imacpro monitor it gets saturated...

                                     

                                    another thing I realized was when imacpro started. in the login part at the beginning gets saturated ;(

                                    • 15. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                      R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      You have to check out the gear and the needs you're working with before purchasing. I would never buy a monitor without knowing what color space it works in, how it does relative to colors of the spaces I need, the gamma, all that. Even for my UI monitor, I know what the color/gamma is going to be. The 'confidence' monitor used for Mercury Transmit is the more crucial, and must be up to what I need, but I'll even be close with the main UI monitor.

                                       

                                      That said, the only two places I'm totally concerned are 1) that confidence monitor and 2) what the scopes show. And the UI monitor ain't gonna be nearly as tight as that other one, so I don't judge anything by how it looks in the Program monitor on the UI interface.

                                       

                                      Neil

                                      • 16. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                        Thiago Kume Level 1

                                        your answer does not solve this problem ;(

                                         

                                        If the problem is on the monitor, that's okay.

                                        but if the problem is in the software or some bug, I'd like it to be fixed.

                                        1 person found this helpful
                                        • 17. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                          R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          If you've read through this and other threads on this, there is a lot of information there.

                                           

                                          If you are doing pro level video post, monitors need to have the correct color profile as a fairly native hardware situation for the media and market you are working in. Both for color and gamma besides a brightness of around 100 nits.

                                           

                                          Broadcast specs internationally are based on BT(Rec.) 709, which is sRGB and gamma of 2.2/2.4.

                                           

                                          With appropriate calibration you can adjust a monitor to tighter specs, but you can't really make a monitor built for P3 into a great monitor for Rec709.

                                           

                                          If you check out the high-end Flanders monitors for instance they are built for specific standards of Rec 709 and now a couple for Rec2020 I think and HDR.

                                           

                                          With the controls of say Resolve, the app can attempt to show say Rec 709 on a P3 monitor but it would never be close enough to trust for delivery.

                                           

                                          So while a bit more user controls  (which we should have) would make the situation easier, an editor still needs to know what standards they are delivering to and have the appropriate hardware to meet that standard.

                                           

                                          Past that, Firefox is the only correctly color-aware browser, VLC and Potplayer for video players, and YouTube can sometimes re-encode PrPro exports properly and sometimes doesn't.

                                           

                                          And in the end, all you can do is be sure your gear meets the standards so you create material that matches other pro content. Understand it will never ever look like it does on your screen on any other screen. But if you meet standards, your material will look like other pro produced content on those screens.

                                           

                                          Then let it go into the wild where you have no control, and get to work on your next project.

                                           

                                          Neil

                                          • 18. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                            Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                            HI,

                                            A P3 to Rec.709 LUT applied to an adjustment layer over your entire sequence will help you get WYSIWYG color control. You can check the results in VLC (not QuickTime Player). If that does not work for you, please let us know.

                                             

                                            As others have said, a broadcast monitor attached to your system is another way to check real world color.

                                             

                                            You can also make a feature request for better color management in Premiere Pro here: Premiere Pro: Hot (1271 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps

                                             

                                            Regards,
                                            Kevin

                                            2 people found this helpful
                                            • 19. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                              davids19419774 Level 1

                                              I'm sure that feature requested has been made a lot in the past few years with no one from Adobe saying if we're ever going to get the request done

                                              • 20. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                They're a publicly traded company. They take the law that they can't do things to affect the value of stock seriously ... including that they never talk about what's coming until it's here. Kind of a pain, but that's clearly what their legal department insists on.

                                                 

                                                From the talk at NAB, the engineers are clearly aware how fast HDR/DolbyVision and wider-gamut screens are coming toward usability in broadcast work. This app is clearly built around b-cast standards. The standards are changing. I think it's pretty safe to expect they'll change the app at some point.

                                                 

                                                And totally safe to predict we won't have a clue until it "drops" at maybe midnight US PST some day. They've been dropping at typically some major event like Adobe MAX (October, this year) or NAB-Vegas (April). IBC in Amsterdam is what ... next week or two? Could be we see something this fall, could be next spring or fall ... or the year after that.

                                                 

                                                Like waiting for Christmas presents except you don't have a clue when Christmas is ... sigh.

                                                 

                                                Neil

                                                • 21. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                  davids19419774 Level 1

                                                  I understand they can't menion anything, it's just a pain having got an expensive iMac at work (another reason I hate Macs) and not being able to use it properly.

                                                   

                                                  Will my colours display the same as they do in premiere on non P3 displays? So if i send my videos to clients and they view it on an srgb monitor will they see what I see in Premiere? Or will it still be washed out?

                                                  • 22. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                    Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                    I understand they can't menion anything

                                                     

                                                    Actually with the new User Voice system, Adobe can and often does post the status of the work they're doing on any particular Feature Request or Bug.

                                                    • 23. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                      Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                      not being able to use it properly.

                                                       

                                                      You are able to use it "properly".  The proper use for the GUI display is to view content.  For proper quality control, you need one of the following

                                                       

                                                      1. An I/O device connected to a calibrated display.

                                                      2. An export played from hardware to a calibrated display.

                                                       

                                                      It's been said and I think rightly, "Grading by viewing the image in the GUI just doesn't work."

                                                      • 24. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                        R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Hey ... will it show close enough on the wide-gamut particular Mac monitor you've got to make it look close enough on an sRGB display?

                                                         

                                                        Um ... maybe ... "it depends ... " ... sigh.

                                                         

                                                        Neil

                                                        • 25. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                          davids19419774 Level 1

                                                          But for many people, who's company they work for can't afford all the extra items, or people with limited technical knowledge (like myself) this all gets confusing and hard work...

                                                           

                                                          If everyone had a proper calibrated display then I can understand getting one but when only a small percentage do it seems like it wouldn't do much anyway.

                                                           

                                                          Even if I edited it on an sRGB monitor, then by what everyone's saying it will still show as washed out on the new Macs anyway because of the wide gamut and that's just what will happen until technology all catches up with eachother.

                                                           

                                                          I've noticed what I see on my premiere screen is what I see on my phone and home computer and older Macs and other peoples work stations who don't use the newer macs, so it probably is just an issue with these crappy monitors (damn you apple)

                                                          • 26. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                            ryanm6243038 Level 1

                                                            We are experiencing the same issue. I created a video to show how Adobe Premiere shows the colors on the screen before and after you export it. WATCH VIDEO: iMac Pro adobe premiere color issue

                                                            Kindly help us figure this out!

                                                            • 27. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                              R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              You've apparently little to no understanding of the use of color spaces in computers, between the OS, the apps, and the monitors. This has been covered both above and ad infinitum on this and other forums.

                                                               

                                                              Your shiny new Mac uses a very non-standard (for broadcast video) color space ... a version of P3. I say a version of P3 as I've seen credible empirical testing by several others that each different size Mac P3 monitor uses a slightly different space, gamma, & calibration settings.

                                                               

                                                              P3 is a very wide gamut space ... "bigger" than A-RGB, far bigger than the standard for broadcast of BT (Rec.) 709, which is sRGB for gamut/space and 2.2/2.4 for gamma. Video material produced according to video standards will show on a P3 in a non-managed app with either less or more contrast, and normally far less saturation.

                                                               

                                                              Which ... is exactly what you are demonstrating.

                                                               

                                                              PrPro operates internally in sRGB/2.4, and will attempt to show all media accordingly though it cannot control the monitor. Resolve ships in 'auto' mode (though it does allow some user settings for matching things) which will do the same. If you took your work a bit farther, and re-imported your exports into both apps, you would see the same color/gamma/saturation you saw in the app before export.

                                                               

                                                              Because that is how the file looks when displayed at least close to sRGB/2.4!

                                                               

                                                              You monitor is outta whack, as is your OS. "But FCPx doesn't do this!"

                                                               

                                                              Well, yea ... Apple has juiced the OS and in-house FCPx to work visually mostly kinda sorta similar (if not actually correct).

                                                               

                                                              Run that signal out through a BlackMagic (necessary for Resolve use), Kona, or AJA external calibrated box to a b-cast capable and calibrated monitor ... you will see color/sat/contrast very close to your in-app views.

                                                               

                                                              You can ... if you know what you are doing ... work with some of the preferences in Resolve to semi-sort-of get around this. Maybe in the version due out sometime soon PrPro will have some user settings to try and get around this.

                                                               

                                                              But basically ... you got a spendy new rig that's built from the ground up outside of broadcast video standards, and you have to use apps & external devices to be able to sort of force it back into standards.

                                                               

                                                              What this leaves you is a bit farther out than you may have realized you were before, at least ... more obviously out of bounds. Without that external calibrated box feeding a properly calibrated monitor you cannot be certain to pass QC for b-cast standards.

                                                               

                                                              Neil

                                                              • 28. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                                ryanm6243038 Level 1

                                                                Thanks Neil for this in-depth replay. This is the exactly the answer I was looking for.

                                                                Yes- I figured that it had to do with the color spaces within the computer... I am just shocked that this is the case. Almost as if this was intentionally done by Apple to compete with PrPro and Resolve.

                                                                Yes there are work arounds, and I can do them... But I think Apple knows, "If you are the type of person that buys this computer... then you are probably just going to end up switching to FCPx instead of using "technical" work arounds." I.E: the person who buys this expensive "shiny new Mac" is the the type of person who will spend more money with Apple, they wants things simplified, dumbed downed and so on... I think you get my point.

                                                                 

                                                                Thanks for the help!

                                                                • 29. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                                  R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  Sadly, I do think you're summation of a possible internal viewpoint of Cupertino is quite possibly accurate ... and that saddens me.

                                                                   

                                                                  Remember, the current CEO has publicly stated that he doesn't understand why anyone buys a desktop anymore. They took over five years to update their most expensive computer's motherboard ... and then, only did some changes internally.

                                                                   

                                                                  Years ago, Apple courted the graphics pros with a great 'ecosystem' designed to work with the pro apps beautifully. Out of the box. Now, this is clearly designed to work with the in-house apps seamlessly, and all others need to adapt. Without public acknowledgement.

                                                                   

                                                                  Yea, you really need to check out what you're getting from Cupertino these days. Sad, but ... wise.

                                                                   

                                                                  Us pc types always knew we had to verify on our own. It's a shock for many Mac users.

                                                                   

                                                                  Neil

                                                                  • 31. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                                    R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                    There's another long thread on color management where I explain what the user has to do to get their system set up so color IS standardized on it.

                                                                     

                                                                    If the user does not go through the OS, video card, monitor, and app settings very carefully and then calibrate the monitor with a puck/software system to produce an ICC profile the OS uses for that monitor  ... there is no standard whatever on that machine. Period.

                                                                     

                                                                    Somehow people expect their computer to automatically sit this. What nearly all computers/cards/monitors are set to do ignores all color standards in the attempt to enhance the viewing experience in gaming. By gaming the settings.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    Neil

                                                                    • 32. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                                      bramv26529825

                                                                      Where can I find a LUT like this?

                                                                      • 33. Re: P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift
                                                                        chrisw44157881 Level 4

                                                                        i haven't heard if this doesn't work, so you'd be the 2nd person to test it. (other guy said something matches, but didn't specify)

                                                                         

                                                                        here's two luts depending on if your going from FCPX to premiere or premiere to VLC/firefox. one darkens, other lightens

                                                                        bt1886 to srgb/rec709 2.2 and srgb to bt1886

                                                                        https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HHxxaOWifI3TEhBwEyGSl139x2jRM9dO