37 Replies Latest reply on May 5, 2018 8:15 PM by Jim_Simon

    Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\

    ZenGeekDad Level 1

      FYI (for anyone with same issue):

       

      I recently changed the drive & folder that Premiere Pro* uses for its media cache.  My C:\ drive is a small SSD (120GB), so this seemed smart.  But right after, my video playback started getting erratic.  It would freeze a ton.  It is NOT a gear problem**.

       

      The problem occurred for every PrP use, whether or not anything else was running, and even occurred immediately after a fresh reboot, and after clearing the (new) cache.  The CPU and GPU were never breaking a sweat.

       

      The moment I reverted to using a cache folder on the C:\ drive, the video stutter went away.

       

      I recall seeing threads on this issue a year or two ago.  So, seems it's still a problem.

       

      Anyway, the fix I know of, is to not use a different drive for the media cache.  Please reply with any other fixes, if you've found them.

       

      _____________________

      * CC v12.0 Kentos, current as of 24 Apr 2018

      ** It's a 16-thread CPU. GPU is a GTX 960.  The new cache location was a Samsung Evo 850 SSD talking over a late-model high-end mobo over 6Gbps SATA.  The OS is Windows 10 home 64-bit, and it up to date.  No other software had video stutter in the same time frame.

        • 1. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
          Jim_Simon Level 9

          Your experience isn't normal.  Moving the Cache off C: and onto a dedicated drive is still recommended.

          • 2. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
            ZenGeekDad Level 1

            Darn it, I spoke too soon.  The stuttering video problem is back.  I'm not sure what is causing.  At least this is consistent with Jim Simon statement that the non-C:\ drive cache should not cause this, and is recommended.

             

            But, I would welcome any advice on fixing stuttering video.  Happens in PrP (details above) but no other video playing software.  And CPU and GPU are not remotely busy (system is a new build, designed for video editing; details in first post).

             

            .

            • 3. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
              R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              So, 8-core CPU with a GTX 960 ... what's the RAM?

               

              I know Bill Gehrke is strongly suggesting an m.2/NVMe drive for a projects/assets/media drive for active projects now.

               

              So that system drive, an m.2 projects drive, the EVO for cache files should be a decent drive setup. Use big spinners to store projects and media.

               

              But still ... RAM is always important.

               

              Neil

              • 4. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                Jim_Simon Level 9

                I know Bill Gehrke is strongly suggesting an m.2/NVMe drive for a projects/assets/media drive for active projects now.

                 

                While I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone who can afford and wants to use such drives, I have to point out that I'm editing multicam HD Uncompressed RAW footage from a single spinning hard drive just fine.  Most PP editors are likely using H.264, which is far less taxing on the storage system.

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                  Jim_Simon Level 9

                  What camera are you using to shoot the footage?  Have you considered using Cineform proxies?

                   

                  Work offline using proxy media |

                  • 6. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                    ZenGeekDad Level 1

                    So, 8-core CPU with a GTX 960 ... what's the RAM?

                    32 GB in 4 sticks of DDR4-2400 (1200 Hz) by Crucial.  During my latest video stutter, only 6 GB of RAM were in use. 

                    PrP > Preferences > Memory shows 25.9 GB memory as available for PrP.

                    • 7. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                      ZenGeekDad Level 1

                      Jim_Simon  wrote

                       

                      What camera are you using to shoot the footage?  Have you considered using Cineform proxies?

                       

                      Work offline using proxy media |

                      Oh, I'm just editing HD, not 4K.  So, no I hadn't tried proxies.  Their big selling point is speeding up 4K workflow, right?

                       

                      (I only occasionally work with 4K and 2.7K, but haven't done so in my recent projects that have been stuttering ... those are all 1080p30.  I currently chiefly shoot Canon XC15 and Nikon D7200, and add fill angles with some basic cameras [Panasoninc TM700, GoPro Hero5, Canon Vixia HF-R800].)

                      • 8. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                        ZenGeekDad Level 1

                        https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  wrote

                         

                        Bill Gehrke is strongly suggesting an m.2/NVMe drive for a projects/assets/media drive for active projects now.

                        So that system drive, an m.2 projects drive, the EVO for cache files should be a decent drive setup. Use big spinners to store projects and media.

                         

                        I've been wanting a PCI-e drive for years.  Only recently have their prices come down to earth.  I may upgrade to one within 1 or 2 quarters, but haven't yet.  However, my older 2009-built video-editing PC ran PrP video playback with zero lag for years.  And my (vastly upgraded) new 2018-built PC was doing fine for weeks too, until the stutter popped up.

                         

                        My current hardware's specs are not the problem.  I'm running PrP and its cache on a Samsung 750 EVO (the C:\ drive) and I'm accessing the project's source files from a Samsung 850 EVO ... both over SATA 6Gbps.  That set-up may not quite keep up with a PCI-e drive, but makes Raptors in RAID look quaint, and should never bottleneck HD video.

                        • 9. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                          ZenGeekDad Level 1

                          I tried updating my GeForce GTX 960's video drivers (getting the latest set from NVIDIA's website), and so far so good.  Maybe the drivers had become corrupted?  (Not sure how.)  Before the driver update, PrP's video would stutter within a minute of starting editing a timeline.  Now, I'm several minutes in, with no stutters yet.  Fingers crossed ...

                          • 10. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                            ZenGeekDad Level 1

                            ... and the stutters are back.  GPU driver refresh did not help.

                            • 11. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                              ZenGeekDad Level 1

                              Cutting playback monitor resolution (from full to 1/2 or 1/4) does not help.  Stutters same way, just as much.

                              • 12. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                And if you make Cineform proxies of the media on a sequence, what sort of playback do you get while toggled on (blue toggle-proxies icon)?

                                 

                                Even if it's not 4k, that sounds like all long-GOP media to me. And I think PrPro takes more hardware in general than it used to.

                                 

                                Neil

                                • 13. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                  ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                  FYI, the stutter is in nested multicam sequences.  I combine a series of video clips from one camera to a single multicam sequence for that camera, then create a timeline from the multicam.  Call that sequence "A-cam".  Repeat this to create a sequence (multicam from multiple clips) called "B-cam".  Repeat one last time for "C-cam."  Finally, create a master multicam from the three sequences called A-cam, B-cam, and C-cam.  Editing the timeline of this master multicam is what stutters.

                                   

                                  I tried flattening the multicam sequences in the source sequences ("A-cam" sequence, and separately flattening "B-cam" sequence, and separately "C-cam" sequence.)  This did not help at all.

                                   

                                  So, now I am trying selecting all timeline content in a given source footage sequence (like everything in the timeline for ""A-cam"), then right-clicking to open and run "render and replace".  This is rather slow. So far, it does not seem to be helping.  (Did not expect it too; I had almost no effects in play.  But thought I should try.)

                                  • 14. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                    ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                    https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  wrote

                                     

                                    And if you make Cineform proxies of the media on a sequence, what sort of playback do you get while toggled on (blue toggle-proxies icon)?

                                     

                                    Even if it's not 4k, that sounds like all long-GOP media to me. And I think PrPro takes more hardware in general than it used to.

                                     

                                    Neil

                                    Thanks; I'll try that next, and post the result (tomorrow; it's quite late in my timezone).  But if it works, I still won't understand why this is suddenly needed, especially on such an overbuilt PC, and when video playback from the PrP timeline was fine until about a week ago, and on my prior (much older) PC was always fine.  Proxies seem a bandaid, and not a fix of the root cause.

                                    • 15. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                      ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                      https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  wrote

                                       

                                      And if you make Cineform proxies of the media on a sequence, what sort of playback do you get while toggled on (blue toggle-proxies icon)?

                                       

                                      Even if it's not 4k, that sounds like all long-GOP media to me. And I think PrPro takes more hardware in general than it used to.

                                       

                                      Neil

                                      I tried toggling Proxies.  In either state (blue icon, or white icon), the stutter is the same: severe.  Now, I'm new to Proxies, and haven't gone through the tutorials yet, so if I need to take some action to create proxies first, for this toggle to do anything, then I haven't done that.

                                      • 16. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                        R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Ahh ... you can set ingestion checkbox to "on" in the Media Browser and select actions it should auto-do on import. And you can right-click media in a project panel bin, select Proxies/Create Proxies, for media already imported.

                                         

                                        Use a low frame-size Cineform preset from the options there. Toggle on for playback, off for checking quality, and you can use keyboard shortcuts for switching too.

                                         

                                        Neil

                                        • 17. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                          Jim_Simon Level 9

                                          I hadn't tried proxies.  Their big selling point is speeding up 4K workflow, right?

                                           

                                          Their "selling point" is to improve performance.  I recommend using Cineform proxies for all H.264/5 based media, regardless of resolution or machine specs.

                                          • 18. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                            Jim_Simon Level 9

                                            I combine a series of video clips from one camera to a single multicam sequence for that camera, then create a timeline from the multicam.  Call that sequence "A-cam".  Repeat this to create a sequence (multicam from multiple clips) called "B-cam".  Repeat one last time for "C-cam."  Finally, create a master multicam from the three sequences called A-cam, B-cam, and C-cam.

                                             

                                            Try this instead.

                                             

                                            Manual Multi-Camera Method

                                            1 person found this helpful
                                            • 19. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                              ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                              ... you can set ingestion checkbox to "on" in the Media Browser and select actions it should auto-do on import. And you can right-click media in a project panel bin, select Proxies/Create Proxies, for media already imported.

                                              Thanks.  That looks helpful.  I'm creating proxies for all the footage in that project now.  Will post my results once I have them.

                                               

                                              Meanwhile, I'll mention: I let PrP use the default setting for the proxies -- i.e., the lowest resolution available, at 1024x540(H.264).  [ That's an odd pixel ratio: 1.904, vs. 1.778 for 1920x1080.  Is that cropped or anamorphic? ]  I see these proxies are about 35-53 % smaller than the originals.  Does that sound right?  Obviously %size drop will vary based on the particulars.  But is your hearty endorsement of proxies tied to experience of about this size reduction?

                                              • 20. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                H.264 proxies shouldn't even be an option.

                                                 

                                                Start over.  Use Cineform proxies.

                                                • 21. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                  R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  As Jim says use Cineform. It's not the file size that counts, or even so much the frame-size. It's the file type. H.264 is long-GOP, Cineform is intraframe. It is vastly easier on the CPU in playback.

                                                   

                                                  Neil

                                                  • 22. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                    ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                    R Neil HaugenAs Jim says use Cineform. It's not the file size that counts, or even so much the frame-size. It's the file type. H.264 is long-GOP, Cineform is intraframe. It is vastly easier on the CPU in playback.

                                                    But I'm mostly editing MPEG source files, not H.264.  In my current project, I have zero H.264 source files.  I'm not sure how to find the actual GOP size(s) of my files.  But I understand that MPEG files are short GOP.  (That being the much of the problem with them being so large.)  Here is a typical source file of mine:

                                                    In some quick spot checking, the proxy files did eliminate my stuttering, ... but good lord they look like garbage.  Here is the problem: I chose between my multiple cameras in running playback, instant by instant, based on which ones look the best.  Hiding that ("that" = "which camera footage looks the best") behind the massive pixelation of a proxy file is helping me exactly "not at all."  I can see proxies working well for 4K proxied down to 1080.  But for 1080 proxied to 540, it's a nonstarter.  For me anyway.

                                                     

                                                    I read up today on M.2, NVME, & U.2 SSD drives.  Seems a single SATA lane M.2 would give essentially no gains over my current Samsung 850 using SATA3.  But, an NVME using PCI-e x4 should give real speed boosts.  But here is the problem with expecting that this and only this will fix things ...

                                                     

                                                    My vastly weaker prior PC ran PrP/cc stutter-free for me for 2-3 years, ... the only exception being when I tried hosting my source files on any drive other than my C:\ drive.  That older PC used four 7200 rpms HDDs in RAID0 (at 2 TB), netting about 150 Mbps max transfer speeds, but timeline video playback never stuttered (until I moved the source files to a non-C:\ drive).

                                                     

                                                    But now, my newly built PC, with vastly faster operations in every respect (tested and confirmed), is giving me stuttering video in timeline playback.  My next debugging test will be to copy the project onto the C:\ drive (if it fits; it's a small C:\), and see if the stutter goes away*.  If so, then there is something very screwy in how PrP calls up source files from non-C:\ drives.  But then it's still hard to explain why I seem alone in this experience.  If others have stutter-free timeline playback when editing, hosting source files on non-C:\ drives, ... then why don't I?  Are there settings I'm missing?

                                                     

                                                    __________________

                                                    * (This assumes the copied project will open at all; have not had great luck in the past with moved projects, and Adobe Forums show others are routinely burned by trying this too.)  

                                                    • 23. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                      Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                      H.264 is an MPEG codec.  I still recommend you start over.  Create a new project, set up your Ingest to create Cineform proxies, and test that.

                                                      1 person found this helpful
                                                      • 24. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                        ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                        Can you point me to an authoritative reference - like a text book I can buy - on what codecs and wrappers are what?  I seem to get an endless runaround by "experts" online saying stuff that sounds reasonable, until they all contradict each other.

                                                         

                                                        I'd read that MPEG2 was a short GoP format, lighter to work on in NLE's, and very distinct from H.264 (which being so long-GoP,  was bad for NLE, but good for online distribution due to smaller size), ... and that while H.264 is coloqially used as synonymous with MPEG4, that isn't strictly correct either.  Wikipedia currently lists MPEG2 as H.262, FWIW.

                                                         

                                                        I've bravely read lots of online refs like Wikipedia, Adobe forums, Avid forums, and so on.  And I just get a lot of breezily tossed-off incomplete and frequently mutually contradictory statements, ... but no rigorous breakdown that holds up to debate or deep scrutiny. 

                                                        • 25. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                          ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                          Back on topic, I tried exporting my root multicam sequences as DNX HQ 1080p29.97 files (I picked that codec, from Avid, based on some skimmed reading that suggested it would be a nice high performance / low overhead codec for editing, for PC).  But the result was unusuable (audio corrupted: left channel only; whereas right channel is a staticy buzz).

                                                           

                                                          So I tried again, exporting the root multicam sequences this time "matching source settings", and those imported and built a new multicam sequence just fine.  So far, no stutters.  Which suggests the original stutter problem may have been related to nested multicam sequences after all.

                                                           

                                                          If this restart eventually begins to stutter too, then I will at that point try the Cineform Proxies, as suggested, to see if the Cineform compression is more tolerable than the first proxy default I tried.

                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                          • 26. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                            R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            The DNxHD/R should work, that is really one if the top codecs for heavy lifting and editing. So, I'm rather puzzled at what went wrong with that export. And sorry it took time for no usable results.

                                                             

                                                            Best wishes on your current working result!

                                                             

                                                            Neil

                                                            • 27. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                              Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                              I'd read that MPEG2 was a short GoP format, lighter to work on in NLE's, and very distinct from H.264 (which being so long-GoP,  was bad for NLE, but good for online distribution due to smaller size)

                                                               

                                                              MPEG2 is generally easier on the system than H.264.  Both can be Long-GOP, Short-GOP or Intraframe.

                                                               

                                                              I'm not aware of a single reference for this kind of data.  Sorry.

                                                               

                                                              What camera are you using for the source footage?

                                                              • 28. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                                the original stutter problem may have been related to nested multicam sequences after all.

                                                                 

                                                                That's why I suggested the manual multicam method.  There was a bug with the auto method that denigrated performance significantly.  (I don't know if it's been fixed.)

                                                                 

                                                                I've also found PP can get wonky with more than one nest level.  You can nest sequence A into B, but if you nest B into C, things go weird.

                                                                 

                                                                The manual method avoids both these issues.

                                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                                • 29. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                  ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                                  What camera are you using for the source footage?

                                                                  I currently chiefly shoot Canon XC15 and Nikon D7200, and add fill angles with some basic cameras [Panasoninc TM700, GoPro Hero5, Canon Vixia HF-R800].

                                                                  • 30. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                    Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                                    OK.

                                                                     

                                                                    Those models all record Long-GOP H.264, so definitely use Cineform proxies for everything.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                      ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                                      Jim_Simon  wrote

                                                                       

                                                                      the original stutter problem may have been related to nested multicam sequences after all.

                                                                       

                                                                      That's why I suggested the manual multicam method.  There was a bug with the auto method that denigrated performance significantly.  (I don't know if it's been fixed.)

                                                                       

                                                                      I've also found PP can get wonky with more than one nest level.  You can nest sequence A into B, but if you nest B into C, things go weird.

                                                                       

                                                                      The manual method avoids both these issues.

                                                                      In your example, is A a set of clips, contained in the multicam sequence B, which in turn is contained in nested multicam sequence C?  I.e., clips in a sequence behave fine, but sequences in sequences are hit or miss, for you too?  (That's been my experience.)  And you're also saying that the manual multicam approach fixes this?  (I'll try that soon.)

                                                                       

                                                                      Meanwhile, so far I'm still having zero stutter from my last try at fixing this (specifically, exporting the root multicam sequences, thus making new clips out of them, so the top -level multicam is now based on clips, not sequences).

                                                                      • 32. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                        ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                                        Jim_Simon  wrote

                                                                         

                                                                        OK.

                                                                         

                                                                        Those models all record Long-GOP H.264, so definitely use Cineform proxies for everything.

                                                                        How does one find that out?

                                                                        • 33. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                          Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                                          A will have the original clips.  In a multicam situation, this is referred to as the Source Sequence.

                                                                           

                                                                          B will contain sequence A nested.  In a multicam situation, this is called the Target Sequence.

                                                                           

                                                                          Stop there.  No more nesting.

                                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                                          • 34. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                            Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                                            How does one find that out?

                                                                             

                                                                            Manufacturer specs.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                              ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                                              Jim_Simon  wrote

                                                                               

                                                                              A will have the original clips.  In a multicam situation, this is referred to as the Source Sequence.

                                                                               

                                                                              B will contain sequence A nested.  In a multicam situation, this is called the Target Sequence.

                                                                               

                                                                              Stop there.  No more nesting.

                                                                              Okay.  Thanks for the terms.  I've never nested past two layers.  Here's my experience:

                                                                              • 36. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                                ZenGeekDad Level 1

                                                                                Jim_Simon  wrote

                                                                                 

                                                                                How does one find that out?

                                                                                 

                                                                                Manufacturer specs.

                                                                                Sorry; I meant for a file already created.  Seems we could set a column in PrP's project window, to display the codec.  But I haven't stumbled onto it so far.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Stuttery video playback when media cache is NOT on drive C:\
                                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                                                  That's one way to do it.  I don't think it's the best way.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Use the manual method for multicam creation.  Put all of Cam A on track 1, all of Cam B on track 2, add any sound you want, and sync manually.  It takes only a minute or so.  I can usually do it faster than the machine read do it automatically.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Nest that Source sequence once, and edit away.