Creating an accessble pdf of a 100 page document and using article and layers panel tags are still out of order

[dianec42527989]

I am creating an accessible pdf of a 100 page financial booklet including tables done in InDesign CC 2018, jpegs, graph files that are saved as outlines and as .eps files.The text and objects must be in the right order. I can get the the reading order perfect using layers (which then changes after I anchor the tables in the text so I have to recheck and I lose some control when the tables are anchored ),  I can never get the tag order right using the Articles panel. After imported into Acrobat DC the reading order is usually okay, but the tag order is out of order.

First of all when I anchor the tables, photos and graphs and export to an interactive pdf with all all the proper boxes checked for exporting an accessible pdf the only images that are tagged are the tables I created in Indesign, the photos and .eps files are not there. So, I have to add them to the the articles separately and then they come in with everything but not in proper order. After exported properly and opened in Acrobat DC when I check the tags panel, the linked text boxes are all in order first grouped together with the tables anchored in them but the photos and graphs are added at the end. I have to do alot of remediation in the tags panel to drag the photos and graphs into place! and this could cover any where from 6 to 20 pages in one section which is confusing. To make it less confusing I have tried saving each page in the Articles panel but it is still time consuming to drag the paragraphs into the proper page and the proper order.

How do I keep the graphs and photos from all moving to the end of the section and avoid all this remediation work in Acrobat DC??

The problem occurs when text is linked throughout the whole section on pages where text is not linked there is no problem, and on the first page of linked text there is also no problem, it is all the pages after the first page, or on pages with several linked text boxes.

I use the layers panel for reading order, the articles for tag order, it still is not enough to save me alot of remediation time.

I watched the whole lynda.com video, and they say there is a bug with the articles panel for Indesign CC 2018 regarding the issue of the object not being included but it didn't say the order of tags with linked text was an issue, is it? Is there a bug fix for this? I can't automatically update my work computer unless I request an update be made, so if this issue I am having is a bug that has been fixed please tell me.

What can I do?

Is it a bug?

I am missing something in my process?

Is there a way to unthread the text boxes but leave the text as is , would this work against the way a screen reader reads the text, or is it okay as long as the paragraphs are in the right order in the tags?

[olafdruemmer]

What is the reason that you also wish to address the reading order? Why is the tags order not sufficient?

Without going into details, there will always be scenarios in a non-trivial document where reading order and tags order cannot be perfectly well aligned. Even where in theory feasible, software engineering (in an application like InDesign) may simply be too expensive to achieve this goal all of the time  – one area that will create hiccups are anchored frames: an anchored frame is an object in its own regard, and going back to the way layout applications work (where overlapping order does matter a lot  (from a visual presentation point of view) it will either exist before (below) or after (above) the object into which it is anchored. As a consequence, the content of an anchored frame cannot appear - in terms of the reading order -  between parts of the frame into which it is anchored. It is nevertheless relatively easy to achieve this in the form of the tags order. Actually, such scenarios are one of the various reasons why tag order was in invented (to be able to get content order right even where visual presentation constraints block any effort to achieve this already on the reading order level).

My understanding is that the Articles panel (as of InDesign CC 2018) is all you need to get the tags order right. So why ot focus just the tags order (using the Article panel)?

Olaf

[dianec42527989]

Accessible pdfs are not just accessible to people who use screen readers, they are also accessible to people with low vision, and mobility issues. They have the option to view the pdf in reflow mode, the order of the page contents, in reflow mode is controlled by the reading order. Reflow mode can also make it easier for someone to look at a text version of the pdf on their mobile device. Also, if you need to create an accessible text document the order of that document is controlled by reading order, and can also be used for person's needing a braille option. The Tag order should match the reading order, also there are other screen readers other than JAWS that need the reading order in the proper order to work correctly.

[olafdruemmer]

I am aware of all that you are saying. Nonetheless, that doesn't make certain fundamental problems go away that tend to show up once you look at layout heavy documents (and at application that allow one to create such documents).

In the end you (and ultimately the users you work for) have two options:

• wait until creation tools fully accommodate your current needs
• wait until the tools used to consume documents can do their work based on the tag order (not having to rely on reading order any longer)

Both will be a relatively long wait. For me the question would be: where and how to allocate my (or my customer's) resources?

Olaf

[dianec42527989]

Yes, I see what you are saying. This process is very time consuming, mostly my resources are used for other tasks, I am doing this in my off time. So I am making slow progress. Have been doing this for a number of years and try to keep up-to-date. Every year I do research to see if this procedure of creating accessible pdfs had become quicker and easier and it just hasn't. Although Indesign has made improvements on some tagging issues.

I am crossing my fingers for some solutions.

[dianec42527989]

I just unthreaded text boxes on six pages that were easy to unthread and this solved the tagging problem in Acrobat DC, the Paragraph tags are now on the proper pages not all grouped together on the page where the text thread began. Not sure if this is the right way to go from a Screen Reader perspective, does anyone know?

Now, I have to figure out a way to keep the text as it is on this long document,  but unthread the text boxes - and hope the document stays exactly the same. Not sure if anchoring will still work with this method though - but I can place all tables, graphs and images exactly where I need them to be and they are in the proper tagging and reading order after I export and open in Acrobat DC, this will save me alot of remediation time. Also, this way if something has to change I can change it in the original Indesign file, and not redo the whole accessible pdf file. And, with doing all that remediation in Acrobat DC it could cause some issues that are difficult to fix/undo in Acrobat.

Am I on the right track? this works against all the videos I have watched for creating accessible pdfs, they all instruct you to thread the text and anchor objects.

[olafdruemmer]

Your biggest enemy will be text reflow caused by text length changes in earlier parts of the text flow / text thread. As long as only local changes (with only local impact) are applied that do not impact the text as it flows across columns/pages, you might be lucky. From a quality assurance point of view, text threads and anchored frames are much preferred though (sacrificing control over reading order).

[dianec42527989]

I am not having problems with reader order, it is with the tag order and the problems are numerous. Why does the text need to be threaded if it is in the right tag order, it will just flow from one tag to next. Why would this effect a screen reader if the text is unthreaded but still in the right order?

[dianec42527989]

I have had most success when I unthreaded the text boxes. I gained full control over the tag order using the Articles Panel and the full control of the reading order using the Layers panel. I have been able to automatically unthread the text boxes in Indesign CC 2018 by using the SplitStory.jsx script that comes with it (Windows-Utilities-Scripts/Application-Samples-SplitStory.jsx).

I have had a discussion with Chad Chelius, who created the Lynda.com video on accessible pdfs and he has agreed that I am on the right course with the complexity of my original document and the limitations of linked text boxes and anchored images in Indesign.

[dianec42527989]

Warning to check your text line endings after getting rid of the text threads, to a hard copy I had one because the booklet was printed, if you don't print a hard copy before getting rid of the text threads. Some text line endings changed luckily preflight drew my attention to those errors - only 2 over about 15 pages because they overflowed. But, when the text of a bullet point continued to the top of the next column Indesign put in another bullet although it should not have been there, I had to get the text from an original document and leave the 2 columns threaded it worked for that page (this also happened when I tried copy and paste the individual columns). Also, noticed kerning is not the same as in the original.

[LBened]

From a Screen Reader perspective yes, you want things to read page by page as much like a sighted person would read it as possible. So the Figure alternative text or the Table be read after the paragraph with the callout for the Figure or Table. You would not want to interrupt the reading of a paragraph.  Footnotes (if any) are usually tagged either immediately after the reference for them or at the end of the paragraph containing the reference.

Sounds like a nightmare unthreading all those text boxes -- is there a way to do that automatically in Indesign without reflow? I have not worked in Indesign for a number of years but it sounds like some things have not changed much in terms of creating a tagged PDF.  Or, maybe someone else can answer the ID question.  If you have anchored the Figures and Tables seems like they should "go with the flow' and tag in the order they appear.  Geez.