LR v8.0 colours different in library and develop module

[dblues]

I just installed the version 8. On windows 10, Fuji RAF files look completely different in library module and in develop module, softproofing is unchecked. It seems the rendering is wrong in Develop, which makes it unusable. Too contrasty and saturated in develop module.

[dblues]

here an example on this image

[Mohit Goyal]

Hi dblues,

We're really sorry for all the trouble. Could you please update the graphics card from the manufacturer's website, restart your machine and check and if that helps.

If updating graphics card doesn't help then, uncheck the GPU from the Lightroom preferences and let us know the results.

Go to Lightroom > Preferences > Performance tab > Uncheck GPU > Restart Lightroom.

Regards,

Mohit

[dblues]

I've tried that and it doesn't make a difference.

This problem is not present on all images, this is only for high iso underexposed images pushed 1 or 2 stops.

The example above is not dependent of the process I choose, the image was originaly developped with process 3 and the difference between devlop and library is present. If I create a virtual copy and change it to process 5, it's the same.

I have another example that is even more pronounced:

[Per Berntsen]

What happens if you view the image at 1:1 in both Library and Develop? Is there still a difference?

[dblues]

No, in this case there is no difference, they both appear with the library colours. The navigator image still displays different in each module. There is also a difference in fill view

[Per Berntsen]

I have seen similar reports on this forum before, about Develop not displaying very noisy images correctly in views other than 1:1. I think it has to do with Library previews being more accurate than Develop previews, which are created on the fly.

Todd Shaner​ should be able to shed some more light on this.

[TheDigitalDog]

dblues  wrote

No, in this case there is no difference, they both appear with the library colours. The navigator image still displays different in each module. There is also a difference in fill view

The two modules use a different preview architecture so to some degree, a slight difference is to be expected. And you really MUST examine both at 1:1 (100%) as whenever you 'zoom out', there is some subsampling of the image and you don't see an 'accurate' preview of colors, sharpness and in your example, probably that 'noise'.

[Ian Lyons · Accepted solution]

thedigitaldog  wrote

The two modules use a different preview architecture so to some degree, a slight difference is to be expected. And you really MUST examine both at 1:1 (100%) as whenever you 'zoom out', there is some subsampling of the image and you don't see an 'accurate' preview of colors, sharpness and in your example, probably that 'noise'.

And that difference will be significantly more obvious with high ISO underexposed photos.

[dblues]

I don't find the difference 'slight' for these images

Also, 100% is not a good magnification for balancing colours for the whole image

[TheDigitalDog]

dblues  wrote

I don't find the difference 'slight' for these images

Also, 100% is not a good magnification for balancing colours for the whole image

You're missing the point.

1. IF you want to view the most accurate color of your images, you must view them in Develop as the other modules do not use the same preview architecture or color space.

2. IF you must compare the modules, you must do so at 100% (1:1) in any application due to the subsampling of colors when one zooms out.

3. IF you care about seeing sharpening, noise etc, you MUST zoom in to 1:1 in Develop to see the editing results of whatever you do in Develop via the sliders.

4. You can and should zoom out to 'balance color (colours), in Develop but none the less, IF you wish to see the most accurate preview of your edits, you must zoom in to 1:1 or greater. In LR, Photoshop, fill in the blank image editor.

[dblues]

No, because In my case, and that is the big problem, the accurate colours are not in develop module but in library. Per Bernsten said it above, library is more accurate because develop has to render on the fly.

[TheDigitalDog]

dblues  wrote

No, because In my case, and that is the big problem, the accurate colours are not in develop module but in library. Per Bernsten said it above, library is more accurate because develop has to render on the fly.

No, that's not correct. The Library absolutely isn't more accurate even if you prefer the look. I'm sorry if the facts ruin your day:

Common questions asked about Color in Lightroom CC

Why do my images look different in the Library and Develop modules, or in the second window?

The Library module and the second window use different color spaces and methods of rendering image previews than the Develop module. To speed up the curation process inside the Library module, pre-rendered image previews are displayed. These previews are lossy compressed 8-bit JPEGs in Adobe RGB. Depending on the photo, some loss of image details and color differences might happen.

Previews in the Library module and the second window are displayed using the Adobe RGB color space. In the Develop module, by default, Lightroom displays previews using the ProPhoto RGB color space. 

These differences, sometimes, make images look different.

[dblues]

You are missing the point. Library is more accurate because when you export a jpeg or tiff or print this is the colours I'm getting, this is what the client is seeing in synced collections. I don't care what bit depth the preview has in develop, it's just wrong. If I export to photoshop, the colours look like the library view, not the develop view.

[TheDigitalDog]

dblues  wrote

You are missing the point. Library is more accurate because when you export a jpeg or tiff or print this is the colours I'm getting, this is what the client is seeing in synced collections. I don't care what bit depth the preview has in develop, it's just wrong. If I export to photoshop, the colours look like the library view, not the develop view.

Nope, and you need to SOFT PROOF in Develop for whatever you're exporting as that TIFF or JPEG as you're NOT getting the same color space (ProPhoto RGB, linear TRC**) when you export, but that's what is shown in Develop. IF you're exporting a TIFF or JPEG and presumably you're saving it as sRGB, you must soft proof to sRGB in Develop if you hope to see them in the same color space.

There are multiple confirming resources all over the net that explain how the preview architecture works between the various modules and why one should do all critical evaluation of color, tone, sharpness and so forth IN Develop. You can incorrectly believe otherwise.

**Previews in Develop are working in its internal color space, which is Linear encoded "ProPhoto" (RGB primaries). In terms of color gamut, Linear ProPhoto, ProPhoto RGB, and Melissa RGB all have the same color gamut because they use the same set of RGB primaries from ProPhoto RGB. The difference between them is the encoding of the image values (e.g., linear encoding, 1.8 encoding, and 2.2 encoding, respectively). The differences in this encoding does not affect image appearance in previews. So, within the Develop module, how our images appear in Linear ProPhoto, regular ProPhoto, and Melissa RGB are all correct and all the same and for all files: raw, jpeg, tiff, dng, etc. The facts are however, in Develop, the previews are the unnamed internal color space.

The Library previews are Adobe RGB (1998), because the previews are stored as JPEGs. JPEGs are 8-bit, inappropriate for a wide gamut color space like Linear ProPhoto, ProPhoto RGB, and Melissa RGB. Using an intermediate-sized color gamut as found in Adobe RGB (1998), avoids artifacts, while providing a larger gamut than sRGB. Another reason why the LR user might consider a wide gamut display that closely approaches or exceeds Adobe RGB (1998).

The Develop module doesn't have quantization problems because the image rendering isn't using JPEGs. It is instead performed on the fly using the original image data (e.g., a raw file), using higher internal precision (at least 16 bits).

Within the Develop module, if a user has turns on soft proofing, the gamut is limited to whatever ICC profile the user has chosen for soft proofing.

[Todd Shaner]

Sorry for the late reply–I've been in the field with no Internet access for the past 10 days.

dblues  wrote

You are missing the point. Library is more accurate because when you export a jpeg or tiff or print this is the colours I'm getting, this is what the client is seeing in synced collections. I don't care what bit depth the preview has in develop, it's just wrong. If I export to photoshop, the colours look like the library view, not the develop view.

You are correct!

When viewing images at less than 1:1 Zoom View the Library module provides the most accurate rendering. This is especially true for high ISO images that exhibit noise at 1:1 Zoom View. Why is that?

The Library and Export modules use the more accurate Bicubic interpolation algorithm and the Develop module uses the faster and less accurate Bilinear and Nearest Neighbor algorithms. When making adjustments in the Develop module this helps prevent a lag in the preview update (i.e. sluggish sliders). The Develop module preview may appear sharper and perhaps noisier when viewed at less than 1:1 Zoom View.

In most cases when differences are observed between the Develop and Library module previews at less than 1:1 Zoom View it's due to excessive sharpening and/or insufficient noise reduction. This is due to integration of noise in the image during the Library Preview building Bicubic interpolation process. This can make the Library preview and Export images appear lighter and less sharp than the Develop module preview.

Solution

Adjust the Detail panel Sharpening and Noise Reduction controls at 1:1 Zoom View to reduce visible noise. With very noisy high ISO images it's a fine balance of reducing noise while maintaining the desired sharpening.

How to Properly Sharpen Images in Lightroom

After proper adjustment of the Detail panel controls you may still see a difference in image sharpness when switching between the Develop and Library modules. The Library module uses a JPEG 'Preview' file containing 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, 1:8, and 1:16 pyramid images for creating the Zoom view screen preview. When using 'Fit' or Fill' Zoom view in the Library module a 2nd interpolation is applied to the closest pyramid image, which may cause visible  "softening" of the screen preview image.

Solution

View the image at one of the pyramid Zoom settings (1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, 1:8, 1:16) instead of 'Fit' or 'Fill.'

Following the above suggestions you should be able to obtain virtually identical preview rendering at less than 1:1 Zoom view between the Develop, Library and Exported image previews.

[TheDigitalDog]

When viewing images at less than 1:1 Zoom View the Library module provides the most accurate rendering. This is especially true for high ISO images that exhibit noise at 1:1 Zoom View.

And now this, just a small sampling, many other similar outside references agree:

http://asktimgrey.com/2017/01/25/posterization-in-lightroom/

The short answer here is that the Develop module presents a more accurate preview, and that the Library module presents a JPEG preview of your photo. Therefore, the preview quality in the Library module will not always reflect the true quality of the underlying photo.

http://asktimgrey.com/2015/03/11/image-preview-quality/

More Detail: The previews in Lightroom’s Develop module are created differently compared to the previews shown in the other modules, such as the Library module. In the Develop module the preview is based on a full rendering of the original image, while in the Library module the previews are based on JPEG renderings of your images.

At a 100% zoom setting the differences will be very subtle, but you can see some variations with close examination of the image when switching between the Develop and Library modules.

So, the Develop module should be used for all critical image evaluation. When evaluating sharpness, you should view the image with the 1:1 setting (100% zoom) so you are getting an “actual pixels” view, where one pixel in the image is represented by one pixel on the monitor display.

For evaluating noise and other fine details where you want to be able to see those small details better and aren’t as concerned about visible sharpness, I recommend using the 4:1 (400%) or higher zoom setting. And for evaluating the overall composition and framing, of course, I recommend zooming out to the Fit option, so you can see the entire image.

Page 276 of the superb Lightroom Missing FAQ by Victoria Bampton:

When adjusting the sharpening or noise reduction on your photos, it’s important to zoom into 1:1 view by clicking the 1:1 icon on the top of the Navigator panel. Other zoom ratios aren’t as accurate. If do you need to assess noise reduction or sharpening in Fit view, switch to the Library module, zoom into 1:1 view and then zoom back out. The result is closer than the other non-1:1 views.

Page 448:

Why doesn't the Library module preview match the Develop module preview?

The Library module uses pre-rendered Adobe RGB JPEGs. At 1:1 view, it’s fairly accurate, but the color space is smaller than Develop, so some highly saturated colors may appear slightly desaturated.

The Develop module uses the original data in a large color space, and downsizes the image data on-the-fly. This means that Develop’s 1:1 view is the most accurate, but high sharpening and noise reduction values can be wildly inaccurate at Fit or Fill view.

[dblues]

thedigitaldog I seriously don't know whether you are serious or you are trolling.

I don't sharpen or do any noise reduction on these images. This is not my concern. My concern is the tint and contrast differences between the library and develop renderings. Differences that weren't there on version 7.

[TheDigitalDog]

dblues  wrote

thedigitaldog  I seriously don't know whether you are serious or you are trolling.

I don't sharpen or do any noise reduction on these images. This is not my concern. My concern is the tint and contrast differences between the library and develop renderings. Differences that weren't there on version 7.

You don't know, I agree.

You yourself don't have to sharpen, it's happening none the less. And the idea that Library is more accurate than Develop is false. For color and tone (and sharpening) AS clearly expressed above.

And now you know why and how to soft proof in Develop assuming your goal is to match the exported JPEG in the same color space. What's wrong is the basic understanding of how this works:

dblues  wrote: I just installed the version 8. On windows 10, Fuji RAF files look completely different in library module and in develop module, softproofing is unchecked. It seems the rendering is wrong in Develop, which makes it unusable. Too contrasty and saturated in develop module.

[Todd Shaner]

thedigitaldog  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Todd+Shaner

When viewing images at less than 1:1 Zoom View the Library module provides the most accurate rendering. This is especially true for high ISO images that exhibit noise at 1:1 Zoom View.

Why doesn't the Library module preview match the Develop module preview?

The Develop module uses the original data in a large color space, and downsizes the image data on-the-fly. This means that Develop’s 1:1 view is the most accurate, but high sharpening and noise reduction values can be wildly inaccurate at Fit or Fill view.

So you agree the Library module preview is more accurate at less than 1:1 Zoom View when using high sharpening settings and/or insufficient noise reduction! That's all I was referring to and it has nothing to do with gamut or posterization issues due to the Library module's 8 bit JPEG and Adobe RGB limitations.

[TheDigitalDog]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Todd+Shaner  wrote

thedigitaldog   wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Todd+Shaner 

When viewing images at less than 1:1 Zoom View the Library module provides the most accurate rendering. This is especially true for high ISO images that exhibit noise at 1:1 Zoom View.

Why doesn't the Library module preview match the Develop module preview?

The Develop module uses the original data in a large color space, and downsizes the image data on-the-fly. This means that Develop’s 1:1 view is the most accurate, but high sharpening and noise reduction values can be wildly inaccurate at Fit or Fill view.

So you agree the Library module preview is more accurate when using high sharpening settings and/or insufficient noise reduction! That's all I was referring to and it has nothing to do with gamut or posterization issues due to the Library module's 8 bit JPEG and Adobe RGB limitations.

Todd, I clearly expressed (I believe) that one has to view the images at 1:1 or greater as Victoria states among others for viewing color, tone and sharpening IN Develop. Also examine what Ian wrote at the top.

Again, let's pay attention to the OP's complaint:

I just installed the version 8. On windows 10, Fuji RAF files look completely different in library module and in develop module, softproofing is unchecked. It seems the rendering is wrong in Develop, which makes it unusable. Too contrasty and saturated in develop module.

The rendering in Develop isn't wrong and isn't unusable. Soft proofing should be ON to examine the exported image for a match.

[dblues]

Thank you Todd for this explanation.

However you mention the difference in noise and sharpness, this is not the difference I'm concerned about.

The difference I'm seeing on some images, such as on the first two images I posted on this thread, is a difference of tint, one has a green tint the other a magenta tint, also the contrast is different. The reason might come from the different resizing/interpolation algos used but this wasn't the case on the previous LR version. Something has changed

There was a claim that the new process 5 was better for high iso images that is why I went to my dark images straight away and found this difference. The difference is present on both old and new process.

These are 2-3 stops underexposed images shot at the highest iso setting available on the camera so not a general case. There's probably very little colour information to start with.

[Todd Shaner]

dblues  wrote

Thank you Todd for this explanation.

However you mention the difference in noise and sharpness, this is not the difference I'm concerned about.

The difference I'm seeing on some images, such as on the first two images I posted on this thread, is a difference of tint, one has a green tint the other a magenta tint, also the contrast is different. The reason might come from the different resizing/interpolation algos used but this wasn't the case on the previous LR version. Something has changed

If you can upload one of the RAF files that exhibits the issue to Dropbox or other file sharing site we can take a look at it. This is the quickest way to determine what's happening.

The screenshots you posted have considerable luminace noise, which is going to cause differences between the Develop and Library module previews. Use the Detail panel Noise Reduction controls at 1:1 Zoom view and increase Luminance and Color controls to reduce the noise. Leave Sharpening at the default settings to eliminate that as the cause. Recheck the difference between Develop and Library module previews. If the color shift issue remains try changing to Process Version 4 and check again without changing any other settings. If the issue persists try changing your display profile to sRGB or Adobe RGB if using a wide gamut display as outlined at the below link:

https://www.lightroomqueen.com/how-do-i-change-my-monitor-profile-to-check-whether-its-corrupted/

[dblues]

Can I have LR v8 and v7.5 on my system side by side?

[jfm35051248]

I had a similar problem where the GPU rendering of Lightroom in the Develop module would be very different than the Library and thumbnail preview.  Updating Lightroom and my GPU drivers did not solve the problem.  Disabling GPU in Lightroom settings would solve the problem but defeats the purpose of having a GPU.

SOLUTION: I calibrated my monitor (with an i1Studio device) and once the monitor profile was installed, the colors matched between Library and Develop module.  Hope this helps.  Best,