1 2 Previous Next 73 Replies Latest reply on Nov 8, 2018 11:44 AM by pziecina
      • 1. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
        osgood_ Level 8

        Needs to concentrate on the coding side a bit more..........yikes.........how many stylesheets does a website need. This is what your automated processes, in this case Wordpress, create for you....a pile of poo.

         

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='wp-color-picker-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/qiksw5r5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='grw_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/6nd3o8r5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='n10s-content-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/dj3po51m/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='divi-fontawesome-gtm-custom-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/d4b7jc8h/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='normalize_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/eh1s6zu8/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='custom_style_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/g39rtyl3/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='siq_icon_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/2cwzxeu1/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='siq_front_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/7a9bppj7/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='wp-pagenavi-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/diicfr4a/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='sb_mod_menu_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/e700ng78/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='et_monarch-css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/31dusre5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='et-gf-open-sans-csshref='https://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Open+Sans:400,700' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='et-builder-googlefonts-cached-csshref='https://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Nunito+Sans%3A200%2C200italic%2C300%2C300italic%2C regular%2Citalic%2C600%2C600italic%2C700%2C700italic%2C800%2C800italic%2C900%2C900italic%7 CLato%3A100%2C100italic%2C300%2C300italic%2Cregular%2Citalic%2C700%2C700italic%2C900%2C900 italic&#038;ver=4.9.8#038;subset=vietnamese,latin,latin-ext' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='jquery-lazyloadxt-spinner-css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/2dw1ahf8/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='a3a3_lazy_load-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/d32p3x9f/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='dashicons-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/ftbz2b20/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='chi-dmm-css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/jr6whmnw/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='parent-theme-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/1eu9xen1/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='child-theme-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/ffb7e1ug/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='agsdcm-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/mcjq31eb/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_owl-carousel-css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/mcnl83l8/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_font-awesome-css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/fs28lmd5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_divi_testimonial_slider_custom_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/1fe5xga2/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_widget_style-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/mkw0693c/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_archive_testimonial-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/fcwfzvxc/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='sb_divi_fe_custom_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/7z70187s/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <link rel='stylesheet' id='sb_et_tax_li_css-csshref='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/fp4me5i1/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />

        <script type='text/javascript' src='https://enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/plugins/google-reviews-business/static/js/wpac-time .js?ver=4.9.8'></script>

        • 2. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
          pziecina Level 6

          Which only goes to prove that if internet connection speeds had not increased dramatically over the last 10 years, (depending on where one lives) many website visits would be abandoned before they had loaded, due to excessive file sizes.

           

          However, I think Nancy was pointing out that some knowledge of good design principles are essential, which I agree with. One thing that the article does not point out though, is that the requirements of the target user can change general design principles.

          • 3. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
            osgood_ Level 8

            However, I think Nancy was pointing out that some knowledge of good design principles are essential, which I agree with.

             

            Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....it's like the pot calling the kettle black. I think good design and good coding skills ideally should go hand in hand.

            • 4. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
              pziecina Level 6

              osgood_  wrote

               

              Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....it's like the pot calling the kettle black. I think good design and good coding skills ideally should go hand in hand.

              I've just replied to a post in the Muse forum, in which a poster complained about the Spark app being marketed as not requiring design knowledge. Why should design knowledge be required to produce a good design if Muse users think code knowledge is not required to produce a good web site?

              • 5. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                Nancy OShea Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                osgood_  wrote

                 

                Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....

                 

                Jeeze Louise, osgood!  The soapbox again?   It's a blog article.  And like most blogs it's running on a popular blogging platform the same as CSS Tricks, SitePoint and others....  

                • 6. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                  osgood_ Level 8

                  https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

                   

                  osgood_   wrote

                   

                  Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....

                   

                  Jeeze Louise, osgood!  The soapbox again?   It's a blog article.  And like most blogs it's running on a popular blogging platform the same as CSS Tricks, SitePoint and others....  

                   

                  27 stylesheet links, I lost count after that.............you think that is acceptable. I don't and I don't give a toss what the page is running on, it's complete crap and utter garbage. WTF is wrong with the web-devlopment world these days...........it's being infiltrated by complete amatuers who have zero understanding, pride or any kind of committment in what they do or produce.

                   

                  This blogger might be seriously cocerned about the visual aspect of producing a website and feels the need to inform everyone - its just a pity they weren't as concerned about the tools they use or choose to build the blog/website.

                   

                  Its NOT just a blog either, the whole website is structured the same way.

                  • 7. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                    Nancy OShea Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    The difference between us:

                    I  open a book and read the story. 

                    You open a book and critique the book binder.

                    • 9. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                      BenPleysier Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

                       

                      The difference between us:

                      I  open a book and read the story. 

                      You open a book and critique the book binder.

                      I was thinking about this when I went to this site 5G in Australia: How Fast Will It Be and When Is It Coming? for some information.

                       

                      In doing so, I noted the simplicity, the amount of information, the fact that I did not have to scroll back up to find the navigation bar, its quick rendering. Everything that I find attractive when I visit a website.

                       

                      If I was not a web developer, I would not have noticed https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.southernphone.com.au%2FBlog%2F2018%2FMa r%2F5G-in-australia-what-to-kn… and Latest Performance Report for: https://www.southernphone.com.au/Blog/2018/Mar/5G-in-australia-what-to-know | GTmetrix

                       

                      So yes Nancy, the story is what is important.

                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 10. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                        osgood_ Level 8

                        What l critic is the area of work that all in this forum are involved in or should be, sadly that is clearly not the case.

                        • 11. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                          osgood_ Level 8

                          Thats just confirming my point.......the profession in general leaves a lot to be desired. God forbid if an aircraft mechanic were to be so sloppy.

                          • 12. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                            pziecina Level 6

                            osgood_  wrote

                            God forbid if an aircraft mechanic were to be so sloppy.

                            Probably a bad example, as I am probably the only one of this forums regular contributers who knows what the penalties are for sloppy work by anyone in the aircraft industry, but I do get your point.

                             

                            The problem with the web design/development profession, is that qualifications for the level of expertise required for the building of the run-of-the-mill website is zero. That is a different problem though from the original post by Nancy, which we still have not discussed. Is the article really relevant to the web?

                             

                            Most of the 'design' principles are taken from print requirements and best practices, which are restricted by the cost of such things as paper type, and inks used, (especially when using multiple colours). So are the principles as restrictive for the web, where paper is free, and colours cost nothing. Even white space can be used without any real problems.

                             

                            The other item mentioned in the article, is web site layout, where it is said that page layout is now well established, is it, or have we just reached a point of 'lack of inspiration'. After all, at the beginning of maned flight, bi-planes were the norm, but I have yet to see any modern aircraft with such a wing layout.

                            • 13. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                              osgood_ Level 8

                              I used that example to substantiate a point l was making that other professions do require years of learning, exams, close scrutiny by senior supervisors  etc before youre deemed qualified to perform the job to a level expected.

                               

                              Meanwhile back in the web develpment world just because its not a matter of life or death its perfectly ok, in the eyes of those who posted a response in this thread apart from yourself, to use sloppy worfllows and produce sloppy code.

                               

                              At least try to attain a level of acceptability rather than ignoring  it completly and showing very little committment that your the least bit interested in what you are producing. I guess that is just too much to expect in this day and age

                               

                              Or am l completely out of touch and 27 links to stylesheets and numorous links to js files plus a substsintial number of radically scatered js functions directly within the code is the new and advanced way to code. Those that have already responded alluding to it is need not reapply for the position

                              • 14. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                pziecina Level 6

                                osgood_  wrote

                                 

                                Meanwhile back in the web develpment world just because its not a matter of life or death its perfectly ok, in the eyes of those who posted a response in this thread apart from yourself, to use sloppy worfllows and produce sloppy code.

                                For the site owner it maybe a matter of life and death, (not literally) as their company/buisness survival and growth may depend on not just the apearance, but the code behind it.

                                 

                                How many times have we read in this and other forums, that a developer has lost a client, simply because the client or a relation can build the site for them using wordpress, (or a Muse like program) for almost nothing. As developers should we not be able to point out the advantages of good coding, instead of saying "it's normal now".

                                • 15. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                  ALsp Adobe Community Professional

                                  No, Nancy. You're wrong. You know I'm not a huge Osgood fan, but he is right and you are wrong. You mentioned CSS Tricks. Here are the style sheets their home page is loading:

                                   

                                  Conditionally served
                                  <link rel="stylesheet" href="https://cloud.typography.com/610186/6645572/css/fonts.css">
                                  <link rel="stylesheet" href="https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/themes/CSS-Tricks-16/style.css?v=17.2">
                                  <link rel="stylesheet" href="https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/themes/CSS-Tricks-16/css/oldie.css">
                                  <link rel="stylesheet" href="https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/themes/CSS-Tricks-16/style.css?v=17.2>

                                  Related to a plugin
                                  <link rel='stylesheet' id='jetpack-search-widget-css'  href='https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/plugins/jetpack/modules/widgets/search/css/search-widget -frontend.css?ver=4.9.8' type='text/css' media='all' />
                                  <link rel='stylesheet' id='jetpack-widget-social-icons-styles-css'  href='https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/plugins/jetpack/modules/widgets/social-icons/social-icon s.css?ver=20170506' type='text/css' media='all' />

                                   

                                  The problem with today's pundits and authors is that, like Adobe, they have no practical wisdom. They are simply the modern counterpart to talking heads. I cannot take someone seriously that writes about web design and obviously knows nothing about... web design. The problem with WordPress is not just the platform, but the malfeasants who peddle themes and plugins, most of which are horrible, and many of which require massive amounts of CSS (usually someone else's).

                                  • 16. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                    Nancy OShea Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Oh good grief!  The point of the article at the top was visual appeal not platforms.

                                     

                                    WordPress sites are so ubiquitous it's hard not to stumble onto one daily.  According to W3techs, WordPress has 59.4% of the CMS marketshare — more than all other systems (eg, Drupal, Joomla) combined. 

                                     

                                    At any rate, this discussion has derailed into the usual train wreck we so often see in this space.   I think I've lost my will to live .  

                                    • 17. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                      ALsp Adobe Community Professional

                                      You're taking the whole thing too seriously. The first link you posted is nothing more than a marketing site, probably not a reputable one, either. The site is really, really badly coded. I can fill your ear about WordPress, but I don't think you'd be willing to listen, so I won't and the last thing I want is for you to lose your will to live.

                                       

                                      But it does prove a point, though. Many people really do eschew efficiency and go with WordPress themes and Bootstrap sites.

                                      • 18. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                        BenPleysier Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Of all of the websites (not just the CMS ones) 1 in 3 sites use WordPress and 1 in 5 sites use Bootstrap (probably boosted by Wordpress). The likes of CNN, Netflix and CSDN all seem to be doing well out of their Bootstrap sites. I even found one using the Yahoo framework dated 2009. The web has not blown up despite all of these seemingly inefficient sites. So I am not sure what we are on about.

                                         

                                        Do pretty sites have an advantage over ugly sites? The 4 sites I mentioned don't seem to reflect that. What they have in common is information.

                                         

                                        I also paid Responsive Web Design Extensions, Apps, Add-ons and Plugins for Dreamweaver a visit and was slightly amused to find some obscure warning regarding an attribute for JavaScript resources. I reckon, if you enabled gzip compression it would be one of the most efficient sites on the World Wide Web. Maybe even putting the JS files last would help a touch, but I know you do not like doing that

                                         

                                        Have a great day, mine is turning into evening.

                                        • 19. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                          B i r n o u Adobe Community Professional

                                          I think the subject is getting lost....

                                           

                                          the question, at least as I perceived it... is not whether the site hosting the content is technically laudable and well made... but whether the content distributed there makes sense...

                                           

                                          you can always try to split your hair in four and define the squaring of the circle.... as Nancy said, we are talking about content and not support.

                                          • 20. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                            pziecina Level 6

                                            https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

                                             

                                            Oh good grief!  The point of the article at the top was visual appeal not platforms.

                                            As I said in my reply, (#12) a discussion on the design principles mentioned in the article you linked to, would be welcomed, (by me at least) as I wonder how much some of them are relevant to the web now?

                                             

                                            We do also need to discuss, (yet again) what are good coding practices. Mainly I think because some of us have posted in the Muse forum, that ex-Muse users should learn how to code. If we cannot say what good coding practices are, how can we then say that the code produced by Muse was bad?

                                            That though should have been a seperate discussion.

                                             

                                            As for, (and the bootsrap stat of 1 in 5sites) -

                                            https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

                                             

                                            WordPress sites are so ubiquitous it's hard not to stumble onto one daily.  According to W3techs, WordPress has 59.4% of the CMS marketshare — more than all other systems (eg, Drupal, Joomla) combined.

                                            Also requires discussion, because if true, are we fighting nothing more than a 'rear guard action' when it comes to 'custom' coded sites, (Dw extensions or not)?

                                            • 21. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                              ALsp Adobe Community Professional

                                              Hi Ben,

                                              I'm afraid I don't understand much of what you wrote - nor why.

                                               

                                              Yeah, zipping files on the server is generally a waste of time and effort and can corrupt some JavaScript files. I'm just not afraid to challenge conventional wisdom when it is obviously not wise.

                                               

                                              Despite the number of people using WordPress and Bootstrap, these are still bloated, poorly devised frameworks. It's  kind of like young men's fashion, which only looks good to the young men that wear it, and looks like ill-fitting hand-me-downs to everyone else. But it's fashionable. Not good, not bad. just fashionable.

                                               

                                              By the way, CNN has long been one of my least-favorite sites and I never have used Netflix. That said, there is no correlation between the size of a company and the quality of its code.

                                               

                                              Oh, and sometimes you will find the odd, inert Bootstrap file linked to a page because someone tried to use it once.

                                               

                                              Putting script files last is a recommendation started by Google to compensate for their scripts, which are some of the most inefficient scripts on the planet. You can throw Bootstrap in the dogpile, too. But we can argue that day and night.

                                               

                                              I was simply pointing out that sometimes Osgood is not wrong, and if you dig through the snark, he sometimes even makes sense.

                                              • 22. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                ALsp Adobe Community Professional
                                                Also requires discussion, because if true, are we fighting nothing more than a 'rear guard action' when it comes to 'custom' coded sites, (Dw extensions or not)?

                                                Bootstrap and WordPress are as temporary as any other web technology, though using them is kind of like rubbing your head with lidocaine. The web will continue to evolve... beyond Bootstrap and ever beyond WordPress. And if we can look down from the heavens (or up from somewhere else) we will like find that the whole damn thing is completely unrecognizable... or perhaps quite familiar.

                                                • 23. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                  B i r n o u Adobe Community Professional

                                                  as in all disciplines, no one will contradict the fact that basic tools and techniques remain the only safe values to be learned and mastered.

                                                   

                                                  here in france we have an old school called compagnonnage which trains all the best workers in france in a large number of disciplines.

                                                   

                                                  However, not everyone can become a companion, the journey is long, demanding, and difficult... it requires a lot of self-sacrifice, time and rigour.

                                                   

                                                  and that's the way it is for everything... most of us love code and try to produce quality applications, which can last, evolve and adapt to new interfaces and needs...

                                                   

                                                  Fortunately, a large number of tools sometimes allow us to get to the heart of the needs more quickly in order to minimize production costs.

                                                   

                                                  necessarily not all the tools will be unanimously accepted and very often some tools disappear as quickly as they appeared.

                                                   

                                                  surround yourself with a good box of tools and often a guarantee of subjectivity and remains a compromise between needs, adaptability, skills and possibilities of alternatives...

                                                   

                                                  What is certain is that the web must be accessible to as many people as possible... both in consultation and in the production and supply of content... and as in real life, no virtual, there are vegetables that grow in the ground, without chemical fertilizers, without pesticides, and in their original seasons... and then there is the mass consumption that allows strawberries to be eaten in winter and that have travelled much more kilometres than all those gathered around the table to eat them will do...

                                                   

                                                  guess how I feed myself, and guess what I think of the code...?....... you found it?

                                                   

                                                  well I find that wordpress, bootstrap, enablewebdesign and many others who will always be criticized... have just as many reasons to be and to be available to everyone... the essential thing in the end is that content can emerge from all this and that information can be produced... at least there we know that the earth will not be destroyed, that the water will not be polluted and that everyone, author, as reader could find his or her benefit... even the critics...

                                                  1 person found this helpful
                                                  • 24. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                    pziecina Level 6

                                                    The problem is AL, if the arguments for using Wordpress and bootstrap are the ones the Dw managment are using or being told, then it is not surprising Dw is in the state it is in.

                                                     

                                                    For me stats are always misleading anyway, as they very rarely say how they are calculated.

                                                    • 25. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                      BenPleysier Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      pziecina, I was not advocating the use of WordPress and Bootstrap, the latter I use it myself, I was merely pointing out a fact that there are a multitude of these sites, that make up the flow of traffic on the web.

                                                       

                                                      I am of the meaning that Dreamweaver did the right thing to replace Fluid Grids with something that will stand the time. Bootstrap is not FG, Spry, ADDT et al. that were reliant upon Adobe to be maintained, Bootstrap has a huge community behind it all of whom want to keep making it better. Yes, there are better products out there. But what will change the real outcome compared to a Bootstrap site. How will it affect the user? How will it affect my client? Can the difference be expressed in visitor numbers? In a previous reply there was an article on 5G, which means that speed can no longer be used as a factor. We are being bombarded by ISP's offering unlimited bandwidth. So this can be ruled out as a reason.

                                                       

                                                      All we are left with is the original question, what makes a website visually appealing? I think it to be a reasonable topic to be discussed. Problem in my case is, I do not care about eye candy, I care about content and the information that I can get at a glance without having to wade through countless images and other graphics. I am in, grab the info and I am out. Simple.

                                                      • 26. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                        pziecina Level 6

                                                        I am not saying don't use wordpress and bootstrap, all I have asked in this discussion is -

                                                        • Are the design principles in the original post by Nancy, relevant to the web as it is now.
                                                        • Are good coding practices relevant anymore, and if not, why not.

                                                         

                                                        The stats, if true for Bootstrap = more than 250 million sites are using bootstrap. So should we (and Dw) even consider using anything else, (lets face it, I have promoted flexbox for years, and Bs 4 uses flexbox. So why should I complain, (open to discussion)).

                                                         

                                                        As for wordpress, I wonder how many of the sites using it actually required a cms.

                                                         

                                                        Edit - Internet connection speeds are still relevant for many, it all depends on the user base being targeted by the site. Catering for 1Gb/sec is fine, but only if the end user has that connection speed.

                                                        • 27. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                          osgood_ Level 8

                                                          BenPleysier  wrote

                                                           

                                                          Problem in my case is, I do not care about eye candy, I care about content and the information that I can get at a glance without having to wade through countless images and other graphics. I am in, grab the info and I am out. Simple.

                                                           

                                                          That depends on what you're researching of course. IF you have a wart on your head and want to find some information about warts fast you want that information quickly, without elements animating in from left and right each time you scroll or copious amounts of eye candy. If on the other hand you are wanting to spend 30k on a top of the range car you're more likely to entertain and accept an all singing all dancing experience which shows that product in its best light, that may be videos, animations, 3d imaging etc.

                                                           

                                                          If I purchase something on the web I look for a website that says to me - 'We can provide the service we say we offer', 'professionally produced', 'reliable', 'instills confidence', especially if there is not much difference in pricing between websites............so its NOT always only the content which is important, it can be the visual experience and the content and one would hope whoever produces it shows just as much concern about the code that provides that experience.........it should be a package rather than a set of individual modules.

                                                           

                                                          I dont think we need to be 100% perfect, none of us are, but its obvious to me those that are trying their best to follow/learn/provide some decent workflows/products and those that are blatantly wanting to ignore them. You can deduce you're own reasonings for this but all will be unacceptable. Nothing in life, done well, is a quick fix and I firmly believe its the scabs that infiltrate a profession  which drag it down to gutter levels which is what we are seeing today in web-development.

                                                          • 28. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                            osgood_ Level 8

                                                            pziecina  wrote

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            The stats, if true for Bootstrap = more than 250 million sites are using bootstrap. So should we (and Dw) even consider using anything else, (lets face it, I have promoted flexbox for years, and Bs 4 uses flexbox. So why should I complain, (open to discussion)).

                                                             

                                                            Depends how many of those websites are built by amatuers, same can be said for Wordpress. Just because a product is popular, especially one which requires little knowledge to get up and running, usually spewing out junk in the hands of the untrained, and of course is free, doesn't necessarily make it a good solution, just a cheap/convienient one. Sometimes cheap and convienient is good but when 'professional' outfits start offering services pumping out crap that's when I start to question the integrity of those using such workflows and really what their motives are.

                                                             

                                                            Do you think Bootstrap and Wordpress's popularity would drop like a stone if those that used it were to be charged a yearly fee or even a one off fee, of course.

                                                            • 29. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                              osgood_ Level 8

                                                              pziecina  wrote

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              The stats, if true for Bootstrap = more than 250 million sites are using bootstrap. So should we (and Dw) even consider using anything else, (lets face it, I have promoted flexbox for years, and Bs 4 uses flexbox. So why should I complain, (open to discussion)).

                                                               

                                                              Maybe because at some stage it will always be 2 years behind the curve of were web-development is. Look at how many that use Bootstrap in this forum didn't adopt flex, insisting it wasnt ready yet, until it was default in Bootstrap, whilst the rest of us had been using its benefits for around 2 years prior and some even more. That will be repeated when Grids finally get adopted main-steam...Bootstrap users will be playing catch-up again.

                                                               

                                                              Personally, as a developer I want to be in a position to move when the time is right, not be held captive by soemone else telling when I can use a technology because I have no skills and am for all intense and purposes their puppet.

                                                              • 30. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                pziecina Level 6

                                                                The problem with wordpress or any free framework, is that no one knows who or why people use them. Add to that, how many such frameworks have been used for sites that have been abandoned by the owner, (for all intents and purposes).

                                                                 

                                                                Netflix is listed as one of the top sites using bootstrap, yet I cannot find any reference to bootstrap in the code. That also leaves the question open about how many sites are being counted as using bootstrap but have since abandoned it, any why.

                                                                 

                                                                Look at the typical Dw user now, and they are in most cases not interested in what is actually happening in web design/development. We can debate forever about bootstrap vs custom code, (or even extensions using flexbox) the simple fact is Dw native support, (both code and css designer) is even in the latest version terrible. Dw says it is for the designer who wishes to code, but then one must ask why pre/post-processors or git has been included.

                                                                • 31. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                  osgood_ Level 8

                                                                  pziecina  wrote

                                                                   

                                                                  The problem with wordpress or any free framework, is that no one knows who or why people use them. Add to that, how many such frameworks have been used for sites that have been abandoned by the owner, (for all intents and purposes).

                                                                   

                                                                  Netflix is listed as one of the top sites using bootstrap, yet I cannot find any reference to bootstrap in the code. That also leaves the question open about how many sites are being counted as using bootstrap but have since abandoned it, any why.

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  Well that's just it anyone can claim to be popular by virture of it mostly being freely available but its difficult to breakdown the figures as to who, what or why its being used....so I discount all credibility when its a 'jack of all trades and master of none' senario.

                                                                   

                                                                  pziecina  wrote

                                                                   

                                                                  Look at the typical Dw user now, and they are in most cases not interested in what is actually happening in web design/development. We can debate forever about bootstrap vs custom code, (or even extensions using flexbox) the simple fact is Dw native support, (both code and css designer) is even in the latest version terrible. Dw says it is for the designer who wishes to code, but then one must ask why pre/post-processors or git has been included.

                                                                   

                                                                  I've kind of lost interest in DW to be honest. It brings nothing to the palying field for me anymore personally. I answer coding questions but as for anything specifically DW related I leave that to those who use it.

                                                                   

                                                                  Ive tried every other editor under the sun out there but not the past 2 or 3 versions of DW. Its far too premium price for what it offers in my opinion, as I dont think its moved on much according to the posts I read here. If it were to come down in price Id give it another trial, just to see where its currently at. I'm sure its still a good code editor, which is the only thing I require, but its pricing policy is aimed at those who can't code and that is why they can charge a premium for it but don't take me for a mug.

                                                                  • 32. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                    BenPleysier Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                    If we talk about best practices in web development, how come no one has mentioned HTTP/2? With most browsers now supporting HTTP/2 should we not be looking at that? Should our websites not be shielded by a secure socket layer? Aren't these topics more important than how a web site is constructed?

                                                                     

                                                                    Nearly 100% of the visitors to the sites that I am hosting use HTTP/2 enabled browsers and the advantages that they obtain are humongous, About a year and a half ago I transferred the sites to an Nginx box which has HTTP/2 protocol enabled. HTTP/2 pleads to have SSL as company. The two combined are worth much more to visitors to the site than lean code and beautiful smelling websites. Don't get me wrong, I still feel the need to watch out for good coding practices as well as eye appealing designs.

                                                                     

                                                                    I wonder, how many of us use servers which are HTTP/2 enabled? Netflix is not and Adobe is not.

                                                                    • 33. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                      pziecina Level 6

                                                                      The only bootstrap I can find in the netflix uk site are for the use of bootstrap components, not for the actual html and css. But we digress, your sugestion about http2 is discussion worthy, but not as essential as discussing the original topic, 'design best practices'. That to me would include everything from downloadable fonts, to the use of srcset for images or even css animations.

                                                                      • 34. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                        ALsp Adobe Community Professional
                                                                        I am of the meaning that Dreamweaver did the right thing to replace Fluid Grids with something that will stand the time. Bootstrap is not FG, Spry, ADDT et al. that were reliant upon Adobe to be maintained, Bootstrap has a huge community behind it all of whom want to keep making it better.

                                                                         

                                                                        The last thing we should do now is attempt to rewrite history. Fluid Grids was simply a name Adobe slapped on top of Boilerplate. And Boilerplate was used for the same reason Bootstrap now is... it was a dice roll. Adobe simply did not carry off the transition from a prior in-vogue, fashionable CSS framework, to the one that supplanted it very well. The time will again come when Bootstrap will lose favor, and when that happens, let's all sit back and watch how Adobe handles it. Programming, by the way, is always best accomplished in small groups, with someone clearly in charge. Huge teams usually result in huge problems, huge mistakes, and without a clear leader, anarchy, whether the outside world sees it or not.

                                                                         

                                                                        I've said this before, and it bears saying again...

                                                                        If we can write a visual interface that allows you to lay out a page, then use that same interface, at any time, to modify that layout, by adding or deleting columns and row, or by reordering them, by assigning background colors, box separation, borders, roundedness, text alignment, vertical alignment, et al, then why can't Adobe do that and provide a means for all users to easily lay out a modern, responsive web page regardless of coding skills?

                                                                         

                                                                        These are the things all ACPs should be pushing for, rather than polarizing users into coder/non-coder camps and extension-lover/hater camps. And....

                                                                         

                                                                        This is very important, so do listen up. If a couple of guys (Project Seven) can devise a modest style sheet, from scratch, using modern CSS, to drive said visual UI in Dreamweaver, why can't Adobe do the same thing? Why does Adobe need to rely on a huge, open-source framework, to provide a non-automated means to lay out a page? Why are they using third-party code, when history clearly asserts that said code could lose its appeal? Why, when writing their own CSS is the clear answer to their problems?

                                                                         

                                                                        Lazy:

                                                                        la·zy

                                                                        /ˈlāzē/
                                                                        adjective

                                                                        adjective: lazy; comparative adjective: lazier; superlative adjective: laziest

                                                                         

                                                                        unwilling to work or use energy."I'm very lazy by nature"
                                                                        synonyms:idle, indolent, slothful, work-shy, shiftless, inactive, underactive, sluggish, lethargic;

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        Adobe has few chances left to save Dreamweaver. This forum, and its collective mindset, is not helping.

                                                                        • 35. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                          osgood_ Level 8

                                                                          BenPleysier  wrote

                                                                           

                                                                          If we talk about best practices in web development, how come no one has mentioned HTTP/2? With most browsers now supporting HTTP/2 should we not be looking at that? Should our websites not be shielded by a secure socket layer? Aren't these topics more important than how a web site is constructed?

                                                                           

                                                                          Nearly 100% of the visitors to the sites that I am hosting use HTTP/2 enabled browsers and the advantages that they obtain are humongous, About a year and a half ago I transferred the sites to an Nginx box which has HTTP/2 protocol enabled. HTTP/2 pleads to have SSL as company. The two combined are worth much more to visitors to the site than lean code and beautiful smelling websites. Don't get me wrong, I still feel the need to watch out for good coding practices as well as eye appealing designs.

                                                                           

                                                                          I wonder, how many of us use servers which are HTTP/2 enabled? Netflix is not and Adobe is not.

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                          I dont really know much about servers and technical stuff such as that mention. Im primarily a web-developer, not a server protocal engineer. If its important and brings added benefit and security for users, it should be default. I cant see the point in any one selling hosting now without SSL, yet it's still happening. These kinds of questions should be directed at hosting companies in my opinion.

                                                                          • 36. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                            pziecina Level 6

                                                                            ALsp  wrote

                                                                             

                                                                            These are the things all ACPs should be pushing for, rather than polarizing users into coder/non-coder camps and extension-lover/hater camps. And....

                                                                            ....

                                                                            ....

                                                                            Adobe has few chances left to save Dreamweaver. This forum, and its collective mindset, is not helping.

                                                                            I'm not an acp, I do not polarize anything into coder vs none coder, and I could not care less if somone uses extensions or not. What I do try to do, is promote that an understanding of code and good coding practices, will enable people to better understand what is possible and help them go beyond 'off the shelf' offerings.

                                                                             

                                                                            Extensions, as I have said, I could not care less, just don't try to tell me that I should use them, or that it is the only or best way to produce web sites, static/dynamic or even browser based apps.

                                                                             

                                                                            As for Dw only having a few chances left, in what way?

                                                                            I ask that, because I cannot see it going beyond begginer or casual user, or being for bootstrap users.

                                                                            • 37. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                              ALsp Adobe Community Professional
                                                                              I'm not an acp, I do not polarize anything into coder vs none coder, and I could not care less if somone uses extensions or not. What I do try to do, is promote that an understanding of code and good coding practices, will enable people to better understand what is possible and help them go beyond 'off the shelf' offerings.

                                                                               

                                                                              That's wonderful. So why are (seemingly) responding so aggressively to me? I was not addressing you personally.

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              Extensions, as I have said, I could not care less, just don't try to tell me that I should use them, or that it is the only or best way to produce web sites, static/dynamic or even browser based apps.

                                                                               

                                                                              I didn't ask you. But your tone is sure polarizing... bordering on vindictive. Wow.

                                                                              As for Dw only having a few chances left, in what way?

                                                                              I ask that, because I cannot see it going beyond begginer or casual user, or being for bootstrap users.

                                                                              I'm shocked that some people don't get it. I have no words that will not really piss you off, Paula. Sorry.

                                                                              • 38. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                                pziecina Level 6

                                                                                ALsp  wrote


                                                                                I'm shocked that some people don't get it. I have no words that will not really piss you off, Paula. Sorry.

                                                                                Come on, you can do better than that .

                                                                                 

                                                                                The reason I took your post personally, was because of the comment, 'this forum and its collective mindset'.

                                                                                • 39. Re: What Makes A Website Visually Appealing?
                                                                                  osgood_ Level 8

                                                                                  pziecina  wrote

                                                                                   

                                                                                  As for Dw only having a few chances left, in what way?

                                                                                  I ask that, because I cannot see it going beyond begginer or casual user, or being for bootstrap users.

                                                                                  This is a difficult one for me personally because this forum and DW has been important to my development for many years, not so much in the last 3 or four years.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I actually missed out on all the good code editors from 2010 through to 2015 because of my ignorance that anything better for website building existed. I think the begining of the end for me and when the light bulb moment came was when l was more or less forced to learn how to write my own server behaviours. From that point on l feel l have progressed beyond what l would have done had l still been reliant on DW and l may have never escaped its clutches so l should be really grateful that Adobe chose not to concentrate on what DW was once good at, innovation and explored a more negative business model.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  DW is all but dead in my opinion and it would not surprise me in the least if its EOLed soon or at best left to a slow death. I cant see it regaining the popularity it once had, even in the amatuer world, without a major, major rethink as other bits of amatuer web building software are far more advanced. Adobe seems to have given up competing in this particular arena where DW is neither one thing or the other. Id like it to be handed off to the amatuer so more of this stuff l dont personally like can be included and then it might just have a future but l fear its missed the boat.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  There is another program on the block now and if l was a greenhorn user just as l was myself when l first started using DW thats the bit of kit l would be gravitating towards, regardless of what l think of its workflow. You just have to be careful if you see web development as a long term career you dont invest too much time in what could become a dead end street but thats another story, for amatuers and bit players alike its a perfect fit

                                                                                   

                                                                                  You have to ask questions of DW - why did it let the grass grow under its feet and do nothing to compete.

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