25 Replies Latest reply on Nov 14, 2018 3:24 PM by Jim_Simon

    Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?

    bryced87 Level 1

      Hello,

       

      The cameras I use are 8 bit and I'm looking for the 8 bit cineform codec to download. Cineform website lists 8 bit versions but I don't see them in media encoder. How do I get them? I would only be wanting the 8 bit versions for proxy files .

       

      Thanks,

        • 1. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
          Jim_Simon Level 9

          I think your reasoning is a bit off.  Firstly, proxy files aren't used for anything but to increase performance.  Bit depth won't have any impact on that.

           

          Secondly, there's no disadvantage to converting 8 bit originals to 10 bit versions.  But there can be an advantage, in some scenarios.

           

          I think you're best option is to just use the included Cineform presets for proxies.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
            bryced87 Level 1

            I know going from 10 bit to 8 bit doesnt have impact. That’s not why I asked how to get it. I want 8 bit somthe proxy files are smaller in size. I want tiny size proxy files. It’s silly to have 10 bit proxy files that take up twice the amount of the native footage

            • 3. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
              Averdahl Adobe Community Professional

              I know going from 10 bit to 8 bit doesnt have impact. That’s not why I asked how to get it. I want 8 bit somthe proxy files are smaller in size. I want tiny size proxy files. It’s silly to have 10 bit proxy files that take up twice the amount of the native footage

              Maybe the free GoPro Quik application have 8-bit codecs. I have not installed it so i dont know:  https://shop.gopro.com/EMEA/softwareandapp/quik-%7C-desktop/Quik-Desktop.html

               

              The downside if it works is that the encoding time will be really slooooow compared to the 10-bit native CineForm codec in Premiere Pro. But i do understand the concerns regarding file size.

               

              Consider the DNX codecs and use the Preset panel in Media Encoder to find the right one. Just search for 8-bit in the search window. Fast encodes, 8-bit, some have fairly low bit rates.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                Jim_Simon Level 9

                I want 8 bit somthe proxy files are smaller in size.

                 

                OK, two things.  First, bit depth doesn't affect file size.  Second, the larger size of Cineform files is what makes them play so nice, so trying to create smaller proxies is counter-productive.

                 

                Editing needs a LOT of storage.  It's far better to accommodate that need than to try working around it.

                2 people found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                  bryced87 Level 1

                  So how come if I make a Cineform Proxy at Standard definition it plays just as fine as HD proxy?

                  • 6. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                    Jim_Simon Level 9

                    I'm not sure how that question is related to this topic, but...Cineform is a very easy to edit codec.  That's what makes it a great choice for proxies.  I wouldn't expect any performance difference between an SD Cineform file and an HD Cineform file.

                    • 7. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                      bryced87 Level 1

                      Reason I asked was because you said the more you compress it its not as efficient.

                      • 8. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                        WeAreMoose Level 2

                        Not sure why people here very often try to ignore what the initial thread starter actually asked.

                         

                        bryce didn't ask :' Why do they only have 10 bit, I couldn't think of any good reason why'

                         

                        Bryce said: ' I want small proxy files. 8-Bit preferably, Cineform, found it online, how can I use them?

                         

                        Jim Simon , Where did you hear this???/

                         

                        Jim_Simon wrote:

                         

                        OK, two things.  First, bit depth doesn't affect file size. 

                         

                        Of course it produces bigger files if you have more bit-depth. Significantly . Please prove me wrong.

                         

                        10bitv8bit.PNG

                         

                        Hey Bryce: You can make your own proxy settings, very easy. Just open up the Adobe Media Encoder,

                        click the little plus in the preset browser

                        2.PNG

                        Create Encoding Preset

                         

                        Then choose your codec, if it needs to be small and not play back amazingly, you can go with H264. This can work for a rough cut.

                         

                        Determine the bitrate, size of file etc.

                         

                        Save that, call it whatever you want.

                         

                        Now close it, click the plus again, choose 'Create Ingesting Preset', name it something clever,

                         

                        tick the box 'Transcode files to Destination' , choose H264 as format and the Preset is the one which you've just created.

                         

                        Click OK.

                         

                        Now find that INGEST PRESET (don't confuse this with the Encoding Preset), right click it, choose 'Export Preset',

                         

                        Put it somewhere safe. Now in Premiere Pro:

                         

                        Right click your file in the Browser -> Create Proxy -> Format choose H264 -> Preset: Click 'Add Ingest Preset...'

                         

                        And choose the Ingest Preset you've exported. Choose destination, and boom you're done.

                         

                        Now I know this is not a Cineform. But it's small and good on the go.

                         

                        Thanks

                        Jannick

                        • 9. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                          Jim_Simon Level 9

                          you said the more you compress it its not as efficient.

                           

                          Resolution is unrelated to compression level.

                          • 10. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                            Jim_Simon Level 9

                            Of course it produces bigger files if you have more bit-depth.

                             

                            It won't, all else being equal.  With 10 bit, you're changing the range of possible values, but you're not adding any more data.

                             

                            It's like choosing from 1 to 5, or from 1 to 9.  Either way, both are a single number.  Same data size, just different values.

                             

                            The difference you're seeing in the posted image is very likely because most 8 bit files are 4:2:0, and most 10 bit files are 4:2:2.  That extra 2 is additional data, so will create larger files.

                            1 person found this helpful
                            • 11. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                              WeAreMoose Level 2

                              Jim_Simon  wrote

                               

                               

                              It won't, all else being equal. 

                               

                              Sorry, but I'm not sold yet,

                               

                              just exported a YUV 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed, and then re-exported a YUV 8-bit 4:2:2 uncompressed,

                               

                              and the 10bit is a third bigger than the 8-bit.

                              • 12. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                Mike Dziennik Adobe Community Professional

                                Interpret this as you wish...

                                Queue.JPG

                                resulting in....

                                Result.JPG

                                 

                                info.JPG

                                 

                                ...the clue is in the name of the codec.

                                What this means in respect to your uncompressed YUV test is unclear.

                                • 13. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                  Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Afaik there is no 8 bit Cineform codec.

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 15. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                    Jim_Simon Level 9

                                    and the 10bit is a third bigger than the 8-bit.

                                     

                                    As file size is determined solely by bitrate x duration, something besides bit depth must have changed.

                                    • 16. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                      bryced87 Level 1

                                      I'm not asking about that. You said that the more you compress a cineform file it's counterproductive. I don't see how. If I make a Cineform 10 bit file that's half the resolution of 1280x720 on quality 1 setting the playback speed and smoothness is no different than if I made the Cineform 10 bit file at 1280x720 on quality level 4. I see no difference

                                      • 17. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                        Jim_Simon Level 9

                                        I see no difference

                                         

                                        I wouldn't expect you to.  The strain between 1 and 4 will happen primarily on the hard drive, and most modern drives are more than capable of multiple full streams of Quality 4 HD material.

                                        • 18. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                          bryced87 Level 1

                                          okay, so I just did a test. I made a cineform proxy file at 960x540 resolution set at quality 4. The file size was 350MB vs the built in preset of cineform proxy which was  3.2GB. Since it seems that my custom 960x540 Proxy file plays back fine I don't see any problem sticking with that. 

                                          • 19. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                            WeAreMoose Level 2

                                            Jim_Simon  wrote

                                             

                                            and the 10bit is a third bigger than the 8-bit.

                                             

                                            As file size is determined solely by bitrate x duration, something besides bit depth must have changed.

                                            Bit Depth.

                                            This is sometimes called ‘Pixel Depth’ or ‘Colour Depth’.

                                             

                                            A pixel with a ‘bit depth’ of 1 has two possible values: black or white.
                                            A pixel with a ‘bit depth’ of 8 has 28, or 256 possible values.
                                            A pixel with a bit depth of 24 has 224, or approx. 16 million possible values.

                                             

                                            The greater the ‘bit depth’ the finer the levels of change that can be recorded so the higher fidelity the gradations of the image. Naturally the equipment to perform this task this is more expensive and the resulting file size is correspondingly larger. As a consequence more space is needed in the computer system to handle and store the image. Depending upon scanning options, bit depth can be 24, 30, 36, 48 or even 64

                                            • 20. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                              Jim_Simon Level 9

                                              Test it yourself, Moose.  Export out the same program at the same bitrate, changing only the bit depth.

                                               

                                              DNx is a good choice for this because unlike Uncompressed, it's a fixed bitrate codec, and it happens to offer 8, 10 and even 12 bit depth options at the same bitrate.

                                              • 21. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                                bryced87 Level 1

                                                Don’t get what you mean. DNx doesn’t automatically set the frame rate etc. I disagree that my proxy preset is an issue! If it was it would be lagging and it’s not

                                                • 22. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                  Frame rate isn't relevant to file size.  Only bitrate and duration.

                                                   

                                                  I never said your proxy preset was an issue, so I'm confused about your response there.

                                                  • 23. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                                    WeAreMoose Level 2

                                                    Hey Jim,

                                                     

                                                    I think bryce thought he's being called a Moose or something and felt insulted hence the tone.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    BUT NOW YOU'RE REALLY PUSHING MY BUTTONS, JIM!

                                                     

                                                    Jim_Simon  wrote

                                                     

                                                    Frame rate isn't relevant to file size.  Only bitrate and duration.

                                                     


                                                    I'm sorry man, but this ain't acceptable. Less pixels, smaller file size. Yes, I can export a 240p file, and give it a ridiculously high bitrate to make it bigger than a 1080p file.

                                                     

                                                    But if I export he same snippet as 240p with a CBR of 10Mbit and the same snippet with FULL HD with a CBR of 10Mbit, this is the result:

                                                     

                                                    smallvbig.PNG

                                                    • 24. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                                      Mike Dziennik Adobe Community Professional

                                                      Those files are tiny. I don't think you can reliably test a data rate measured in Mega bits per second with an export that appears to be less than a second.

                                                      • 25. Re: Anyway to download 8 bit Cineform codec?
                                                        Jim_Simon Level 9

                                                        Less pixels, smaller file size.

                                                         

                                                        That's not correct.  Lower resolutions will have an impact on quality, as you have less data to encode with the same number of bits.

                                                         

                                                        But file size is affected only by bitrate and duration.

                                                         

                                                        Think about it.  Files are made of bits.  So X bits/second x the number of seconds = the total number of bits - a.k.a. file size.

                                                         

                                                        The problem with using CBR H.264 as a testing medium is that the forums have seen reports of CBR not always being...C.  And for this type of testing, you need that Constant bitrate.  That's why I suggest using DNx, as it's reliably Constant.

                                                         

                                                        And Mike's right.  Try to use at least 1 minute exports in your testing.