28 Replies Latest reply on Dec 2, 2018 3:46 AM by D Fosse

    Dag!  What Have You Done

    Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional

      I've been following this story since the original incident ten days ago, but it just keeps getting better, so I have to share.   I'm not entirely sure how Dag is involved, but it is Norway, so it stands to reason that he must be.

       

      It started with a billion krone frigate coming off second best after colliding with an oil tanker in a Norwegian fjord resulting in a huge rent in the side of the frigate.  The oil tanker is completely undamaged, so  it might be time for the world's navies to rethink their buying strategies.

      They moved the sinking frigate to the rocky shoreline to prevent it from sinking.   Then embarked on a rescue mission trying to pull it up enough to patch the holes, using best quality Norwegian steel cable...

      ...which broke  and things have gone from very bad, to much worse.  I love the wee red life-raft.  Apparently no other Norwegian warships would go close to the life-raft in case they collided with it, and sank (the worships... not the life-raft).

      Norwegian company Sotra Anchor & Chain says they should have used chain, which is stronger than steel cables, but the navel salvage team didn't ask.   This was the same navy that when contacted by the Maltese oil tanker's bridge asking if they knew they were on a collision course, responded, 'don't worry. we have it under control'.

       

      Dag tells me that they don't have insurance for their warships, and  I can't imagine them getting insurance in future.  Well maybe for  the their little red life-rafts, but only third party liability to cover all the boats that sink after colliding with it.

       

      I've not seen pictures of the shoreline, but my mind picture for a Norwegian fjord  is of  steep mountains coming down to the waterline.  We have the same thing here with our Marlborough Sounds, and what we learn in is that the angle above the waterline tends to continue below it.  The Sounds get very deep, very quickly.  It could be that another 25 metres from the shoreline, would drop the frigate _well_ below the surface, and present an  even worse problem.

      The exception being where the end of a ridge  meets the water — you cut those corners off at your peril!   Those ridges tend to be great fishing spots, and many a boat  has sat on top of one for hours, and suddenly realised that the tide has grounded them! 

      So Dag, what is the latest?  Is there much coverage over there, or are they keeping it a bit secret squirrel?

        • 1. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Oh, there's coverage all right, all the media are plastered wall-to-wall with this. But as you can imagine, it's mostly speculation and very little hard fact is coming out. Twenty or so police investigators are now going through full-top level security clearance, so that they can access all the secret material with no restrictions.

           

          It's getting really ugly at times. At the extreme right-wing political side - and I'm sure this is no coincidence - the current theory in fashion is that there were female navigators on board. We all know they can't parallel park, right? Our local Breitbart/Bannon variety, Helge Luras at resettdotno, introduced this ingenious theory a couple of days ago, and it was picked up by Harald Lysglimt Johannessen, who has gained notoriety as a Trump evangelist (there's no other word for it) for the last two years. He's now starting his own political party.

           

          What can I say? This is even more embarrassing and shameful than the crash itself.

           

          The steel wire story may be a red herring. Yes, they broke, but apparently it was the bolts drilled into the rock, not the wires. Chain wouldn't have helped.

           

          As I mentioned to Trevor in a PM, I did my 15-month military service as a radio operator on board a similar ship. It's a long time ago, but we did participate in NATO exercises like this one. I've seen this from the inside. Even my old hippie/anti-authoritarian self quite enjoyed it - not for any ideological reasons, but because it was an interesting experience. Even then I was impressed by the professionalism and efficiency. These people are exceptionally well trained.

           

          Which is why I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I suspect this is a complex chain of events.

          • 2. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
            jane-e Adobe Community Professional

            https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

             

            It's getting really ugly at times. At the extreme right-wing political side - and I'm sure this is no coincidence - the current theory in fashion is that there were female navigators on board. We all know they can't parallel park, right? Our local Breitbart/Bannon variety, Helge Luras at resettdotno, introduced this ingenious theory a couple of days ago, and it was picked up by Harald Lysglimt Johannessen, who has gained notoriety as a Trump evangelist (there's no other word for it) for the last two years. He's now starting his own political party.

             

            What can I say? This is even more embarrassing and shameful than the crash itself.

             

             

            What is the general reaction to this part of the story, Dag? Does anyone agree with this nonsense or are people speaking up?

             

            Disclosure: I am awesome at parallel parking, trained well by my dad when I was 15.

            • 3. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Thankfully, Jane, the general reaction is disgust, and most people ask how it's possible to sink so low (oops, no pun intended). I couldn't believe it when I first heard it, I thought it was a sick joke.

               

              But there is a segment that actively pursues this and it got some traction on facebook. As I said, this can't be coincidental. It all fits into a certain reactionary ideology and it's being used to that end. Pussy-grabbing and all that.

               

              Of course, nobody knows whether there really were female navigators on duty, on the bridge, that night.

               

              One of our (male) comedians were on TV the other day: "whenever there's crashing, massive destruction and general mayhem, it's my impression that males are significantly overrepresented"...

              • 4. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                It gets you thinking, doesn't it. In case there's anyone out there who still hasn't seen A Handmaid's Tale, do it. And if you have, but didn't quite catch the significance, see it again. These people are out there, and they seek power, and if we just ignore them they might get it.

                • 5. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                  jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                  https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

                   

                  Thankfully, Jane, the general reaction is disgust, and most people ask how it's possible to sink so low (oops, no pun intended). I couldn't believe it when I first heard it, I thought it was a sick joke.

                   

                  One of our (male) comedians were on TV the other day: "whenever there's crashing, massive destruction and general mayhem, it's my impression that males are significantly overrepresented"...

                  We rely on our comedians to get through the events of the day as well. Our latest is that our POTUS thinks that raking the forests will prevent tragedies like the horrible fire in California.

                   

                  I do hope that pun was intended, Dag, it’s good!

                  • 6. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Well, I saw it after I typed it, and thought, that's pretty good...There are puns everywhere these days. The spokesperson for the Navy said, "we'll get to the bottom of this"...

                     

                    Yeah, we're gonna have a great climate. He said that!

                    • 7. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                      D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Oh, and I reread what I wrote about "enjoying" my military service. You have to read that in context. This wasn't Syria or Afghanistan where people actually get killed. At that time and place, nobody thought it would ever get serious. It was just a job, and since everybody had to do it unless they could wriggle their way out, I just counted myself lucky that I got an interesting assignment, instead of eating mud in the regular Army service.

                      • 8. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                        jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                        https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

                         

                        Oh, and I reread what I wrote about "enjoying" my military service. You have to read that in context.

                         

                         

                        You did qualify it with, “Even my old hippie/anti-authoritarian self quite enjoyed it - not for any ideological reasons, but because it was an interesting experience,” and yes, it does sound like an interesting experience. We more often called ourselves “freaks” here in the States.

                         

                        The Handmaid’s Tale was a book that I selected for my bookclub in February 2007. I remember the date only because my daughter came with her one-month old baby, who is now eleven. I haven’t seen the movie, but it’s been on my mind to do that and to re-read the book. Thanks for the reminder!

                         

                        My dad is 93 and we found out a couple of years ago that he has celebrated every February 12—the day he got out of the army—with a beer.

                        • 9. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I've read the book and this is one of those rare cases where I think the filmed version is much better - probably because it's not a 120-minute condensed movie, but a 12-episode series an hour each. That gives enough room to go deep into those seemingly small details and subplots that give flesh to the story. It feels real, this could really happen.

                           

                          And of course it has Elisabeth Moss, easily one of the greatest actors alive today.

                           

                          The first season is based directly on Margaret Atwood's book. There is also a second season, which was a natural consequence as the book didn't really "end". The second season ties the story a bit closer to current events, making it even more chilling.

                          • 10. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                            Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional

                            Because we can never get far from involving Donald Trump, and because it is not entirely off topic being Scandinavian, I hooted with laughter when I read that he thinks Finland has a great forestry management system in that they 'rake' the forest floors there. The Fins are having a field day tweeting pictures of themselves out in the woods with vacuum cleaners with the predictable tagline Raking America Great Again  

                            What makes this so utterly incredible is that Donald Trump must be the only person on the planet who apparently doesn't know that whole cycle of life thing.  Neil summed it up perfectly in The Young Ones all those years ago.

                             

                            Note: This post has taken me for blooming ever as after smiling at Rick and Neil above, YouTube transitioned into the interview below  and I was into some serious aging reminiscing. 

                             

                            Ben Elton - Laughing At The 80s - Rik Interview 1 - YouTube

                             

                            So  some time later...

                            • 11. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                              jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                              Even the Associated Press could not resist with their headline:

                               

                              D Fosse, I noticed that Atwoods's series is already on my Amazon Prime list, so I will watch it but next up is Hunt for the Wilderpeople, which takes place in New Zealand, as I promised ACP buddy Trevor.Dennis.

                               

                              Great clips on Rick and Neil, Trevor.

                              • 12. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Back to the original story.

                                 

                                A thought-provoking feature story in one of our major newspapers today, written by a former instructor at the Naval Academy. Yes, he probably has a stake in this, but nevertheless.

                                 

                                He starts, "When accidents happen, it's easy to look for blame. Since it usually goes without incident, when something does go wrong it has to be because of an error. Somebody has to take the blame for that error" (my translation).

                                 

                                His point is that these are incredibly complex systems. A long chain of events, none of which in themselves unusual or unexpected, and up to that point not resulting in any ill consequences. But every once in a blue moon they all come together and push in the same direction. And it goes wrong - even though everybody had good reasons to do what they did, based on the information and experience available at the time.

                                 

                                In hindsight we always see actions in light of their consequences. That hindsight is a luxury not available before it happens.

                                 

                                I think it's a good point. The tendency in these investigations is usually to find a scapegoat, feed him to the sharks, job done.

                                • 13. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                  John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Aside from laying blame on a person, or a ship's system that malfunctioned, finding out why it happened will (or should) make sure the same thing doesn't happen again

                                   

                                  At least I've not read here about any loss of life, like when that show off Italian captain ran his cruise ship aground

                                  • 14. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                    Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional

                                    Yes, things do go wrong, and Murphy's Law says they do so at the most inconvenient of times.  The image below shows the entrance to Tory Channel which about eight times a day, one of the Cook Strait ferries enters or leaves travelling between Picton and Wellington.  Picton bound ferries have to align two white pillars on land (dark blue highlight and detail square — click to enlarge to full size for a better view) and turn left at another marker to stay in the deep channel.  On one occasion a ferry lost power at what could hardly have been a worst point, and came very close to running ashore. On another occasion, one of the ferries veered slightly off course, and hit the bottom without stopping.

                                    These ferries are fairly big boats.  They have more than once hit the wharf at Picton hard enough to cause significant damage. In fact there is a long list of incidents over the years.

                                     

                                    A few years ago I did some publicity pictures for the town Havelock, and was 'shown' round by a local who happened to be one of the ferry captains.  He told me a few stories, the most interesting of which was when he approached Picton a bit hot, and put one of the engines into full reverse which upset the computer enough to shut it down.  This put undue load on the other engine, whose computer also thought 'to heck with this' and shut down.  This is how I remember the story, but I might have tidied it up a bit.   Luckily they didn't have a flat battery, and were able to restart the engines, and I think he told me the story more to highlight how over complicated systems could get things wrong.  Scotty from Star Trek can talk for hours about this.

                                     

                                    Engine troubles hamper Interislander ferry during Cook Strait crossing | Stuff.co.nz

                                    Investigation blames crew for Cook Strait ferry rock crash | Stuff.co.nz

                                    Captains stood down after ferry near misses | Stuff.co.nz

                                     

                                    I could fill a page with these links, but you get the point, but I will leave you with this one.  A pilot on a hulking great cruise ship instructed a ferry to turn onto a certain bearing, but the ferry captain turned the other way resulting in a near miss with a third boat.  Wellington harbour might look pretty big to a land lubber, but with the size of the big boats, and the time it takes to manoeuvre them, you can very quickly run out of space.  I wonder if something like this happened with the Norway incident?

                                     

                                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11253668

                                    • 15. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                      Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional

                                      Well that was a palaver.  If you happened by the above post while it was  going through a series of edits, it was because it was being blocked because of a 'keyword posting violation'.  I had to remove sections a bit at a time and retry, and eventually tracked down the offending word which was

                                       

                                      'esc0rted'

                                       

                                      Goodness knows why Jive would consider it a bad word.  Perhaps you'd like to try including it to see if your post gets blocked.

                                      • 16. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                        jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                        Good sleuthing, Trevor.Dennis. Here is a screenshot.

                                         

                                        3B3C5605-5152-4482-A3AF-982823106FD2.png

                                        • 18. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          I'm speechless. Who even knows what an "esc0rt girl" is nowadays? And why would they care if they did?

                                          • 19. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                            jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                            Trevor.Dennis  wrote

                                             

                                            'esc0rted'

                                             

                                            Goodness knows why Jive would consider it a bad word.  Perhaps you'd like to try including it to see if your post gets blocked.

                                            I am not going to say in a public forum why Jive considers it a bad word, but I will say that it does have a second, well-known meaning here in the States when followed by the word “Service”. By itself, it means “accompany”, which Jive should not block.

                                            • 20. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Ah. It finally dawned on me. One word: Spam. Yes, there's a good reason for blocking this word.

                                               

                                              I usually don't look in the spam folder of my private email - but the last time I did there was a whole underworld I barely knew existed. I've been living a protected life.

                                              • 21. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                                Trevor.Dennis  wrote

                                                 

                                                Yes, things do go wrong, and Murphy's Law says they do so at the most inconvenient of times. ... These ferries are fairly big boats.

                                                Engine troubles hamper Interislander ferry during Cook Strait crossing | Stuff.co.nz

                                                Investigation blames crew for Cook Strait ferry rock crash | Stuff.co.nz

                                                Captains stood down after ferry near misses | Stuff.co.nz

                                                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11253668

                                                 

                                                I finally followed your links this morning, Trevor, including an internal link about a ferry that showed up missing a passenger who was not found until the next morning. He was dead and floating in the water. They hadn’t sent out a search party because they assumed he had been in a car.

                                                 

                                                Are these inter-island ferries as scary as they sound?

                                                 

                                                Also, they look very big — I tried to find a “floor” plan of the decks but was unsuccessful.

                                                 

                                                Accidents happen, yes, but then there are the reactions afterwards from public officials, which can be good or can be very bad. Very bad includes blaming female crew because they are female and saying we need to rake the forest.

                                                 

                                                By the way, raking is low-tech and so last-century. Someone sent me this photo of a Roomba, which is much more efficient at destroying the ecosystem of the forest than a rake anyway.

                                                 

                                                111A9266-6B21-43AD-947C-B3A8A1F30ED1.jpeg

                                                • 22. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                  Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional

                                                  jane-e  wrote

                                                   

                                                  Are these inter-island ferries as scary as they sound?

                                                  They are the lesser of two equals.  This Sounds Air taking off from the Picton airport at Koromiko

                                                   

                                                  Depending on wind direction, you either take off North, and barely miss the trees and all being well, fly over the Sounds.

                                                  Taking off to the south avoids the trees, but you have get over the mountains.  This is  way scarier IMO.  You always get updrafts and downdrafts making the little aircraft suddenly lose way too much height for comfort.  I have been on a flight where the single pilot was banging the dash with his fist to make the stall alarm stop!  WTF!?  To make totally sure you pooped your pants, this pilot couldn't have been more than 16 years old.  This is not a joke btw.   Fortunately, we have the option of flying Sounds Air out of Blenheim nowadays.   It would take a lot to get me on a plane out of Koromiko. 

                                                  I guess there are worse ways to travel.  You couldn't pay me enough to get in a helicopter.  The things are falling out of the sky about once a month it seems to me.  A well to do family lost two sons in three months while piloting helicopters.  The last I heard on the second crash was that a pair of overalls  got sucked out of either the cabin or external carrier, and wrapped round the tail rotor.  This apparently stopped the main rotor, and it dropped like a stone.  I'd have thought there would surely be some sort of free-wheel clutch arrangement that prevented the tail rotor from jamming the main rotor.  Perhaps we have an expert reading this who could put us straight?

                                                   

                                                  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12145850  

                                                  • 23. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                    jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                                    Well, Trevor.Dennis, that is some scary stuff you are saying.

                                                     

                                                    We have helicopters flying over our houses daily, and so far none have fallen, but I wlll certainly think of them differently. How often to you have to go to the other island?

                                                     

                                                    ~ Jane

                                                    • 24. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                      KR Seals Level 3

                                                      High end helicopters have a vertical fin on the tail similar to light aircraft. If the tail rotor fails, provided the pilot maintains enough airspeed, the tail will keep the copter going straight due to the airflow over it. The problem gets critical for landing, for that airspeed has to be maintained through touchdown resulting in a landing slide on a runway or other suitable (long) landing surface.

                                                      • 25. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        In case anyone's still watching, the post-crash investigation have published their preliminary findings. They have had full access to classified material. This wasn't to assign guilt, but establish a detailed timeline and record of what actually happened.

                                                         

                                                        They emphasize that no one single action or event caused the incident. It was a long chain of circumstances, decisions and actions that led up to the crash. But among the more spectacular contributing factors are these two:

                                                        • The oil tanker left the terminal with full on-deck floodlighting, which they're not supposed to, and it still appeared to Helge Ingstad as part of an on-shore installation. It was lit up like a small city. In short, they saw it the whole time, but mistook its identity in that critical time-window.
                                                        • The water-tight compartments of Helge Ingstad weren't water-tight after all. This was a flaw in the construction, and the Spanish shipyard may be in trouble. If this had been according to spec, the ship wouldn't have sunk, or at least not nearly as fast.

                                                         

                                                        There's a lot more to it. On that night, all the chicken came home to roost, as the saying goes.

                                                         

                                                        There's one more highly unofficial piece to the puzzle. In some interviews with people who have inside knowledge, in various capacities, it has been hinted at what has been called a "cowboy culture". That does not mean they're careless, but that risk is an accepted and indeed celebrated part of the proceedings. It's a sort of masculine ideal and tradition. Those who have read Tom Wolfe's "The Right Stuff" - the book; not the rather sanitized and romanticized film - will know what they mean by that.

                                                         

                                                        If that is true (and based on my own experience I suspect there might be something to it) - it certainly puts the whole "female navigators" talk to final shame. If there were, it happened despite that, not because of it. But we already knew that (and several high-ranking Navy officials have said so in public, repeatedly).

                                                        • 26. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          And to complete the story: Helge Ingstad was a Norwegian explorer and adventurer, mostly famous for finding and excavating a Viking settlement in Newfoundland - thus proving that Christopher Columbus was preceded by about 500 years in his "discovery" of America. Obviously the continent had already been well and truly discovered by other people, but they didn't count back then. I'm sure Helge Ingstad himself appreciated the irony in this.

                                                           

                                                          Even more ironic is the fact that his name is now synonymous with a sunken, failed warship. That he would not appreciate.

                                                          • 27. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                            jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                                            https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

                                                             

                                                            And to complete the story: Helge Ingstad was a Norwegian explorer and adventurer, mostly famous for finding and excavating a Viking settlement in Newfoundland - thus proving that Christopher Columbus was preceded by about 500 years in his "discovery" of America.

                                                             

                                                            While Columbus Day is still officially a national holiday, the tide has been turning against Christopher over the past few decades, and some cities are replacing it with “Indigenous Peoples Day”.

                                                             

                                                            Columbus Day gets dropped in favor of Indigenous Peoples Day in more parts of the US - CNN

                                                            • 28. Re: Dag!  What Have You Done
                                                              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              Good, about time.

                                                               

                                                              The shameful treatment of Native Americans is paralleled by the Norwegian treatment of the indigenous Sami people of Northern Scandinavia. We have nothing to be proud of in that respect.