Why does Pr have such a hard time playing Long-GOP?

[Jim Curtis]

This problem has gone back several versions.  Pr works fine with intraframe and MPEG-2 footage, but drops frames like crazy or won't even play 4K AVCHD, DJI, and other Long-GOP footage WITHOUT ANY EFFECTS OR SCALING applied, even at 1/4 or 1/8 resolution that plays smoothly in VLC and QT player outside of Premiere.

And this is intermittent.  Some times it plays, some times it doesn't.  When it doesn't, quitting and relaunching helps for a while, but it inevitably stops playing again. 

I've been deleting my prefs several times a day, which also helps briefly, but that may be because quitting and relaunching is required to do that.

I have to render most of this type of footage to get it to play reliably.  Time killer.

I'm not maxing out my 2GB/s RAID, 6-core (12 thread) 3.06 GHz CPU or Titan GPU and 128GB RAM.  Not even close.  I have iStat Menus installed, and can monitor my system resources in real-time by looking at my menu bar.

This certainly suggests the problem is in the way Pr is built.  But, if I'm wrong and there's a fix for this, I'd be grateful to learn how.

System described above is on a MacPro5,1 running 10.13.6 with latest GPU and CUDA drivers installed.

[caroline_edits]

Hey Jim!

Playing back 4K footage is a hefty job for any software, no matter how dope your computer is (and it's pretty dope). I would suggest making proxies! It's the only guaranteed way for a program to be able to keep up with your editing speed while using high-quality footage. It takes a little bit of time at the beginning of your project but it saves you a lot of frustration down the line.

Here's a couple of resources:

How to Use Proxies to Edit Fast in Adobe Premiere Pro CC — Premiere Gal

Adobe Premiere Pro Help | Ingest and Proxy Workflow in Adobe Premiere Pro CC

Hope that helps!

-Caroline

[Guest]

Thanks for the Proxi tip ..  very helpful

[R Neil Haugen]

I know it's frustrating. Is for me at times also. Some sequences the H.264 works fine, others ... not so much.

Which is where proxies and t-codes still come in to use. Both make editing a lot faster ... and good t-codes even help a bit with exporting in my rig. I mostly use proxies ... but when I do a bigger project (for me ... ) I do tend to t-code.

Neil

[Jim Curtis]

carolinesears  wrote

Hey Jim!

Playing back 4K footage is a hefty job for any software, no matter how dope your computer is (and it's pretty dope). I would suggest making proxies! It's the only guaranteed way for a program to be able to keep up with your editing speed while using high-quality footage. It takes a little bit of time at the beginning of your project but it saves you a lot of frustration down the line.

Here's a couple of resources:

How to Use Proxies to Edit Fast in Adobe Premiere Pro CC — Premiere Gal

Adobe Premiere Pro Help | Ingest and Proxy Workflow in Adobe Premiere Pro CC

Hope that helps!

-Caroline

No, it doesn't.  But, thanks for the attempt.

Did you not read the part of my post where I wrote that this footage PLAYS FINE in VLC and QT Player?  That is USEFUL INFORMATION.

Also, ProRes 4K plays without any issues at 1:1 quality.  And, I mentioned that some times Long-GOP plays fine, and some times it doesn't.  I know abut proxies, but I'm getting ridiculous amounts of footage these days due to the low cost of camera media.  Shooters are letting it run with few restraints, and I'm getting an average project now of 750 GB for a thirty second spot or a two minute video. 

I can't even trim it to transcode efficiently by Collecting in Pr without tearing my hair out due to Pr's inability to play back raw footage, and I damn sure can't afford to wait a day to transcode a bunch of useless footage, not to mention the storage I'd have to commit.

This is a reality of professional production.  I'm no babe in the woods here.  Let's not forget that Adobe's big selling point a few years ago when trying to lure away FCP7's customer base was Pr's claimed ability to work with native footage.  Requiring a transcode is a violation of that marketing ploy.  And now, I'm hearing FCPX editors brag about not having to transcode 4K.  Somebody is putting out some BS here.

This project that sparked this project came in yesterday afternoon.  I'm about done with it now, aggravated as hell after a couple dozen relaunches, but I'd probably still be transcoding if I had made proxies of the hours of footage my client sent.

Is it too much to ask Adobe to make raw footage play in Pr as well as it does in VLC?  That would be a huge improvement.

[Mo Moolla]

"I'm getting an average project now of 750 GB for a thirty second spot or a two minute video"...Holy guacamole

Those DP's and cameramen need to be spoken to very sternly, But this won't resolve the issue,

The long GOP's will still have playback issues for a while to come until a new Engine is built,

As an example C4D has the same sort of issue so 3rd party reneder software like Render Garden, Arnold etc get created for this speed up.

Unfortunately PP with the Mercury Playback Engine seems to be lagging behind,

I totally despise FCP X but one thing they got right is the BG render which makes it incredibly fast on the timeline playback.

Perhaps a background render engine in PP would be a true ground breaking solution

Mo

[Jim Curtis]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Mo+Moolla  wrote

"I'm getting an average project now of 750 GB for a thirty second spot or a two minute video"...Holy guacamole

Those DP's and cameramen need to be spoken to very sternly

You can say that again, but they're contractors just like I am, and I'm not the one to be "correcting" them.  On the bright side, I charge by the hour, and I do profit from their lack of discipline.  It's just that I think I'd rather maintain my sanity.  Plus, all the camera shaking I have to watch to cull footage gives me headaches.

I could transcode and think of it as a profit center, but adding costs to my invoice that don't add anything to the final product reduces my competitive advantage.

I know this will make me sound old (which I am), but when I was editing film, most shooters didn't start the camera rolling until the shot was framed and focused, and shut it off when the shot was over.  And shooting ratios weren't 500:1.  Sigh.

[Mo Moolla]

Jim I had a good friend who started with film come to me not even a mont ago to get a 5.1 Mac Pro from me as he was running an old 3.1. He is cutting dailies for a tv cooking show amongst others and he complained bitterly about the long takes, inconsistent lighting, scaly shots etc the sound DP's seem to think they can get away with as to them "Post can perform miracles"

I totally agree with you when you say "I could transcode and think of it as a profit center, but adding costs to my invoice that don't add anything to the final product reduces my competitive advantage."

You would very quickly get questioned for extra charges and no matter how much you might explain the agencies involved will not understand and inevitably say you are overcharging and then move projects over to others.

Small stab at a solution here:

Get 2-3 Macs or PC's dependent on your preference:

Main one for edit work

Other 2 to run proxies

I do this all the time especially if I am working on long form or even IMAX projects

The investment in those dedicated "PROXY FARMS" (I might have just coined a new phrase lol) are well worth it and if you have the budget go for it.,

Network them onto a central media storage solution like a fast NAS and u will be running full speed in no time

Hope you don't mind me adding my 2c in here

Mo

[Guest]

Today i updated my Nvidia graphisc card and enabled CUDA..   in " Project Settings / Generel ... Premiere pro 2019 is running just fine again after this ,- also my 4k video .  Try this

[Jim Curtis]

Mougaard  wrote

Today i updated my Nvidia graphisc card and enabled CUDA..   in " Project Settings / Generel ... Premiere pro 2019 is running just fine again after this ,- also my 4k video .  Try this

I have the most recent drivers installed for my rig.  I'm not ready to jump to 2019 yet.  I don't think it's ready for professional use yet, based on a project I started after it came out, and ended up downgrading to 2018.  BTW, some good news is that the XML export/import required to retrograde saved a bunch of my Lumetri color effects and settings.

I just tried opening my project in the 2019 update of Pr that came out yesterday or the day before, and there's no improvement in playback performance.  Zero.  Bupkis.  Nada.

I'm glad it's working for you.  I wish I had your secret.

I'm going to keep repeating this:  FOOTAGE PLAYS PERFECTLY IN VLC and using Spacebar Play in the OSX Finder.

Those who are suggesting proxies are apologists for Adobe.

[Guest]

Okay, maybe I have to correct myself .. I can run 4K video without any effect on .. But If i ad a LUT or just abit sharpness .. i can´t.  1080p mp4 is ok , no problem .  So i i want to edit 4K video i have to use proxi , like anyone else. 

But i realy don´t do 4K video .. and and customers are not interested in 4K.

[R Neil Haugen]

I'm going to keep repeating this:  FOOTAGE PLAYS PERFECTLY IN VLC and using Spacebar Play in the OSX Finder.

Those who are suggesting proxies are apologists for Adobe.

Confusing a simple player versus an NLE is part of the misunderstanding. Players are vastly simpler apps, that don't place near the load on the CPU/subsystems ... the NLE is running its database besides hunting for just bits of clips here and there and splicing them together. Does VLC or Finder hunt for bits & pieces all over the computer and string them together for playback? Um ... no.

And as far as being apologists ... when has living in real-world become being an apologist? I just want work to get out ... on the stuff as it exists, and the hardware as it exists. You wanna get work done, or whine? Whining's fine ... just be clear about it. We all need to rant now & then.

Neil

[Mo Moolla]

R Neil Haugen​ I agree totally on your last post Neil. A media player like VLC and an NLE cannot be compared. The coding is totally different, A media player is built to decompress the codec used and play it back while an NLE needs too deal with far more complex algorithms. It's not even a comparison that should exist. Chalk and cheese.

As for the proxy apologist statement, well all I can say is "We work with what we have on hand and need to understand the limitations of software and hardware. Recommending Proxies are not excuses, it's just being realistic"

Mo

[Averdahl]

Confusing a simple player versus an NLE is part of the misunderstanding. Players are vastly simpler apps, that don't place near the load on the CPU/subsystems ... the NLE is running its database besides hunting for just bits of clips here and there and splicing them together. Does VLC or Finder hunt for bits & pieces all over the computer and string them together for playback? Um ... no.

Well, create a new project in Premiere Pro and import one (1) clip and play it back. No hunts for bit and pieces here and there, but still choppy playback on long-GOP media, be it 4K,1080 or 720. VLC, PotPlayer, etc plays the same media without issues and dropped frames, at highest quality. So the difference cannot simply be due to a large project file, thousands of clips in the project, files scattered on different HDD´s, etc.

Though i understand the difference it is still unsatisfying that a NLE cannot play back one (1) clip in a new project without dropped frames while a free player can play back the same clip smooth, be it compressed format or I-frame format. The opposite would be ok but the current situation is not.

The playback engine needs some love from Adobe asap.

[Mo Moolla]

"The playback engine needs some love from Adobe asap."...agreed

Mercury Playback V2? Woo hoo hopefully

[Jim Curtis]

Averdahl  wrote

Well, create a new project in Premiere Pro and import one (1) clip and play it back. No hunts for bit and pieces here and there, but still choppy playback on long-GOP media, be it 4K,1080 or 720. VLC, PotPlayer, etc plays the same media without issues and dropped frames, at highest quality. So the difference cannot simply be due to a large project file, thousands of clips in the project, files scattered on different HDD´s, etc.

Though i understand the difference it is still unsatisfying that a NLE cannot play back one (1) clip in a new project without dropped frames while a free player can play back the same clip smooth, be it compressed format or I-frame format. The opposite would be ok but the current situation is not.

The playback engine needs some love from Adobe asap.

Thank you for a non-apologist, real world, reality based confirmation of the issue, Averdahl.

Playing media is a core function of editing.  I don't buy the apologies about other overhead. NLEs have had to "look ahead" for the next clip to play since they were first introduced to the market.  That challenge was solved almost THIRTY YEARS AGO.  IF other NLE developers, AS WELL AS PEOPLE WHO MAKE FREEWARE can solve this, Adobe should be able to as well.

I am challenging the Adobe engineers to fix this.  And I entreat others who call themselves "professionals" to stop making excuses for Adobe, who I'm betting we all would love to dominate the NLE market.  You're not helping to improve the product.  You're holding it back, and you're hindering those of us who are trying to use it daily for our livelihoods.

[Mo Moolla]

Jim you make a very valid point in saying that the product is being held back by those (including myself) who look for solutions that clearly show the limitations of a piece of software, That being said I am sure Adobe is really hard at work looking into a new Playback Engine. Creating an engine is far from easy and takes years. It took Apple almost. decade to launch FCP X with background rendering and as u know FCP X sucks. I feel Adobe is intelligent enough not to release something and then have a short lifespan on it.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Jim,

Sorry for the frustration.

I am challenging the Adobe engineers to fix this.

You can do that here: Premiere Pro: Hot (3603 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps

This forum is for troubleshooting current issues.

Bug reports, Feature requests, and any messaging for the product team are better made on user voice.

Thanks,
Kevin

[getho]

relevant link at the above site:

Better Support For LongGOP – Adobe video & audio apps

[Jim_Simon]

Those who are suggesting proxies are apologists for Adobe.

Bottom line here is, do what works.

Proxies work.

[Mo Moolla]

Hi Jim

One of my Macs is almost identical to yours spec wise.

As carolinesears​ mentioned 4K footage is not very easy on the software,

So while you might have 12 cores, dual CPU's, a ton of RAM and a monster GPU I am afraid these mean very little in real world terms to performance gain.

The software just has not matured enough to allow all that hardware to be addressed.

So most people build a monster pc or Mac and expect 4K -8K to play as smoothly as a 1080p HD recording.

It won't. Full stop!

There are ways to increase speed slightly i.e fast separate SSD's for media and cache but the only real benefits you will see when going big with hardware is on the render times. This is where the faster CPUs and RAM come into play. GPU's are used to render out mainly effects but this is now slowly changing as better architecture is being developed.

So hang in there, I am sure sometime in the near future we will see a point where hardware meets software and both speak the same language.

Right now software is speaking mandarin, hardware is replying in Spanish and neither has a vocabulary of more than a few words.

Mo

[Jim_Simon]

I recommend using Cineform proxies for all H.264/5 media.  The performance improvement is significant, especially once effects come into play.

Work offline using proxy media |

[Mo Moolla]

Proxies are the way to go yes

[getho]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jim+Curtis  wrote

This problem has gone back several versions.

This is the key phrase. The point here is not that it has trouble, and the answer is not workarounds. the point is that it used to work better. 

I used to joke that microsoft software techs needed to have this posted up around their offices:

"If you're going to change something, make it better"

I think of this everytime I search for a file and every OS since XP fails to highlight the found file, or when navigating that abomination of a UI, the ribbbon.  Currently I'm trying to re-learn 20 years of muscle memory transforming things in photoshop, and then finding the new modifiers dont tally with indesign, anyway or apparently premiere... And learning to love transcoding every DJI shoot before I can edit. 

ANyone remember the southpark movie "I thought you said CC2019 was better..."

[Jim Curtis]

getho  wrote

.. And learning to love transcoding every DJI shoot before I can edit. 

For some reason, DJI is the worst as far as playing back in real time hardly ever, and I've thrown in the towel on that stuff.

But, again and alas, it plays just swell in VLC.

I guess I should consider myself lucky that DJI cameras have smaller batteries, and force shooters to exercise a little discipline.

Maybe I should be challenging the developers of VLC to make a batch converter that I can set in and out points.  That'd be faster than trying to trim shots before transcoding in Pr. 

Or, maybe they could build an NLE around VLC that we could export rough cut XMLs to Pr for finishing.