21 Replies Latest reply on Dec 28, 2018 1:46 PM by R Neil Haugen

    COLOR SPACE at export in Prores

    casquefilm Level 1

      Merry Christmas everybody !

       

      We edited a feature film in Premiere Pro and preparing for final steps of postproduction now.

       

      Source material is from a Canon C300 Mark 2 (98%) and in smaller amounts also Sony Alpha 7s Mark II (2%).

       

      As there was plenty of reframing and panning done, the postproduction facility who will do the color grading agreed to work on a Prores 4444 file (rebuilding all the reframing would be way to time consuming / expensive). The Prores file for grading we want to export from our Premiere Pro timeline.

       

      Only requirement by the postproduction facility is, that the Prores files have to have the same color space like our source material.

       

      My question now - how do I make sure this works properly ? I understand Premiere Pro does not have any opportunity to edit / change color spaces. But what happens upon reframing shots ? Is this considered an effect and some background RGB conversion applies ?

       

      Our idea for an exporting workflow is to separate Canon and Sony materials to their own timeline and export each one out of Premiere Pro as a Prores 4444 - with the following key settings in the Premiere Pro export window:

       

      Format: Quicktime

      Preset: Match Source (rewrap)

      Video Codes: Prores 4444

      Check Box: "Render at Maximum Depth"

      Check Box: "Use Maximum Render Quality"

      Uncheck Box: "Use Previews"

       

      As the whole process of color space management is happening in the background, I hope this will present us with a decent outcome and not compromise our footage...

       

      Is there anything of importance to consider ? Any trap - or anything else we might have missed ?

       

      Any comment or advice on this would be highly appreciated !

        • 1. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
          R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Pr works internally in 32-bit float on most things. If you are using a GPU render max depth is unnecessary as that just tells the app to do GPU- depth render if no GPU is present.

           

          Pr exports as it works  ... Rec.709/gamma 2.4. For screen use you may wish another space, and take your final print from Pr into Resolve is one way to export to other spaces for specific needs.

           

          For features, they have a "Hollywood" section for those working in feature films. Headed by David Helmly and Karl Soule. You can find them by searching the web, and they would have the best advice and resources to help with features needs.

           

          Also, in general, the most in-depth complete look at using Pr in various workflows is Jarle Leirpoll's ebook "The Cool Stuff in Premiere Pro" found on his site.

           

          premierepro.net

           

          Neil

          • 2. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
            chrisw44157881 Level 4

            I was hoping you'd delve into the large color gamuts that the Canon C300 can use.

            afaik premiere will clip those color gamuts into rec. 709 with luts. it has some rec. 2020 support that I haven't fully tested. where's the documentation on all this stuff? It's like, every question needs a new manual. the latest I've read is Rec2020 EXR files are not currently supported as part of a Rec2020 workflow in Premiere Pro and scopes won't reflect rec 2020 color. I'm not sure about Prores yet or if it can even export rec. 2020.

            Premiere Pro still not color matching After Effects (using EXR files)

            Although, if premiere will dumb interpret all files into rec 709, then all of this is a mute point, especially if you don't need large color values for grading P3 primaries into theatres etc.

            • 3. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
              R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              You need to set the color space in the scopes panel to Re.2020 also. There's 3-4 places you have to set before working which is kinda confusing.

               

              Plus your monitor then has to also be set for 2020 I think.

               

              Neil

              • 4. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                casquefilm Level 1

                https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  schrieb

                 

                Pr works internally in 32-bit float on most things. If you are using a GPU render max depth is unnecessary as that just tells the app to do GPU- depth render if no GPU is present.

                 

                OK - GOT THAT - THANK YOU !

                 

                Pr exports as it works  ... Rec.709/gamma 2.4. For screen use you may wish another space, and take your final print from Pr into Resolve is one way to export to other spaces for specific needs.

                 

                WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "TAKE YOUR FINAL PRINT FROM PR INTO RESOLVE" - take the Premiere Pro project file and import it into Resolve ? Does that work easily ?

                 

                For features, they have a "Hollywood" section for those working in feature films. Headed by David Helmly and Karl Soule. You can find them by searching the web, and they would have the best advice and resources to help with features needs.

                 

                WHO IS "THEY" RESOLVE ? CAN'T FIND ANY GOOD ARTICLES REGARDING THIS SPECIFIC TOPIC. WHERE DO I LOOK ? ANY DESIGNATED RESOLVE FORUMS ?

                 

                Also, in general, the most in-depth complete look at using Pr in various workflows is Jarle Leirpoll's ebook "The Cool Stuff in Premiere Pro" found on his site.

                 

                premierepro.net

                 

                THANKS - IF NOONE CAN OFFER A SIMPLE SOLUTION TO THIS "PROBLEM" I WILL CONSIDER HAVING A LOOK

                 

                Neil

                • 5. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                  casquefilm Level 1

                  chrisw44157881  schrieb

                   

                  I was hoping you'd delve into the large color gamuts that the Canon C300 can use.

                  afaik premiere will clip those color gamuts into rec. 709 with luts. it has some rec. 2020 support that I haven't fully tested. where's the documentation on all this stuff? It's like, every question needs a new manual. the latest I've read is Rec2020 EXR files are not currently supported as part of a Rec2020 workflow in Premiere Pro and scopes won't reflect rec 2020 color. I'm not sure about Prores yet or if it can even export rec. 2020.

                  Premiere Pro still not color matching After Effects (using EXR files) 

                  Although, if premiere will dumb interpret all files into rec 709, then all of this is a mute point, especially if you don't need large color values for grading P3 primaries into theatres etc.

                   

                  Oh - this sounds horrific ! Is Premiere Pro really doing this ? Replacing my color gamuts with rec709 ?

                   

                  We are going for cinema release here - so yes - I kind of need ideal source materials for grading for a theater screen. VOD version comes later but won't be a problem if "problem" solved with a handy workflow which can safe my color spaces.

                  • 6. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                    casquefilm Level 1

                    https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  schrieb

                     

                    You need to set the color space in the scopes panel to Re.2020 also. There's 3-4 places you have to set before working which is kinda confusing.

                     

                    Plus your monitor then has to also be set for 2020 I think.

                     

                    Neil

                    Sorry - I'm not following here. Re2020 is not my color space - I need a good workflow for exporting as I don't want to loose my reframing and panning.

                    • 7. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                      R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Color space won't affect reframing and panning of course.

                       

                      At a family dinner so can't respond further right now.

                       

                      Neil

                      • 8. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                        casquefilm Level 1

                        https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  schrieb

                         

                        Color space won't affect reframing and panning of course.

                         

                        At a family dinner so can't respond further right now.

                         

                        Neil

                        Hey Neil - please enjoy your dinner - this can wait ;-)

                         

                        Just for the record - I'm aware that the color space does not affect the reframing and panning.

                         

                        I want to export a Prores 4444 file out of Premiere Pro, so my reframing and panning is preserved.

                         

                        BUT - I need the original color space of the source material (mainly MXF files with cinema gamut color space) in the Prores after export.

                         

                        chrisw44157881stated above that this is not possible - that is a problem as I do not want my footage to be converted to Rec709 color space.

                         

                        Any ideas how to make this happen:

                         

                        1. preserve refraiming and panning

                        2. preserve original color space of source material

                        • 9. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                          chrisw44157881 Level 4

                          all this stuff i tested in an older version, you'll have to test all over again for cc 2019 as I doubt you'll get a clear answer from adobe

                          proof that premiere clips at srgb colorspace

                          although i do find it fascinating that the old EXR bug I found for them a long time ago still isn't fixed....

                           

                          the adobe help says it supports importing prores hdr rec. 2020. that's all fine and dandy, but if you can't export true rec 2020 because it rec 709 clips it as soon as you drop it into the rec 2020 timeline, true large gamut editing ain't gonna work. I guess you could export a xml to another grading app but xml's sometimes get messed up.

                           

                          I don't know if they've fixed this either, if you shoot cinema DNG RAW. I'm not sure if it fully supports 3:1 compression or RAW color import(it used to add a rec 709 lut that blocks access to RAW data that you can't remove.

                           

                          and here's a fun one. it used to be if using DNG, pan and scan code from AE and premiere is different. They used  slightly offset horizontal pixels from the aperture scan to the resolution pixels so vfx work may not align up, again, I haven't tested this in a long time, so I'd test this as well.

                           

                          Good luck, beta tester.

                          • 10. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                            casquefilm Level 1

                            Thank You so much for your insides Chris - even though they are quite... disappointing to say the least :-(

                             

                            I need to think - talk to the postpro house after the holidays and try to figure out a possible workflow.

                             

                            Would be so easy if there would at least be an option to surpass the weird Premiere Pro color carrousel and simply export the footage in the timeline according to the source materials - with pan and resize applied but with the same color space.

                             

                            PS: You mean that an XML might be able to read and write Premieres pan and resize info - including keyframe values ? And you think there might even be a chance that this could be recognized in another grading app ?

                            • 11. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                              R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              If your material coming in are in upper bit depths and such, and you don't use 8-bit effects on it, then export to 4.4 4.4, your data will all go through.

                               

                              Neil

                              • 12. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                casquefilm Level 1

                                Thanks Neil - this sounds interesting. Material is 10bit. I have no effects applied - only panning and reframing.

                                 

                                Will try this out later tonight - if I manage to sneak out after our family dinner ;-)

                                • 13. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                  casquefilm Level 1

                                  Hmm - well... now I'm running into more obscure things:

                                   

                                  My source footage says in the metadata that it was shot with "Canon Log3" and "cinema gamut" color space.

                                   

                                  When I export to Prores 4444 and then import this Prores file into AE (to see what is says in regards of color space) it has no color space assigned.

                                   

                                  Even more strange is, that when I import the original source footage into AE - it shows a Rec709 color space ?!?

                                   

                                  Could it be that AE interprets the cinema gamut color space of an MXF file as Rec709 - but rather says "nothing" to a Prores file with the same color space ? Or did Premiere Pro on export erase the original color space ?

                                   

                                  Weird, no ?

                                  • 14. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                    R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    I've not cracked files open to study them ... wish I had better answers.

                                     

                                    Neil

                                    • 15. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                      Mo Moolla Adobe Community Professional

                                      This is an interesting one but. no complex to solve at all.

                                       

                                      I will have ti reply tomorrow though. Its 1am and I need to get into a meeting very early tomorrow.

                                       

                                      So you are shooting 10bit and can't see the bit depth in AE.

                                      AE shows 8 and 16bpc and of course 32 bit (floating)

                                       

                                      Are u shooting HDR content?

                                      Also please state the RAW Footage codecs for both cameras incl fps, res and bit rate.

                                       

                                      Just need these answers if you don't mind?

                                      Will revert soonest if someone else doesn't do it first

                                       

                                      Mo

                                      • 16. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                        R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Just looked up that Cinema Gamut space, and it is freaking huge ... I don't think you can "keep" that to the colorist except by doing a traditional conform out/in to the colorist, I'm presuming in Resolve. With the colorist then having access to the original media.

                                         

                                        If you used Set to Frame Size and rescaled, rather than Scale to Frame size then rescaled, a Resolve savvy colorist should get most of your reframing in correctly. There are a number of gotchas in going between programs though, and most of my colorist acquaintances are used to coaching editors what they need to do in Pr to get the XML file out properly for Resolve to read it correctly ... and of course, prefer to work from original media if possible.

                                         

                                        Along with the folders of original media, a flattened file sent along to show the full show as it is supposed to be is a huge help ... they can put that in a higher track sort of process, check out how the flattened version and the conformed version look, make changes as needed to fix the bloopers getting through.

                                         

                                        Neil

                                        • 17. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                          casquefilm Level 1

                                          Sorry - now I was unavailable for a while. Here are the requested facts - hope you can abstract the German descriptions

                                           

                                          Bildschirmfoto 2018-12-28 um 15.41.16.png

                                          • 18. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                            casquefilm Level 1

                                            Yeah... if Mo Moolla doesn't know a secret trick here, I guess there is no way around a more traditional conform. But if you think the panning, rescaling and keyframe values can somehow be transferred between systems via XML - it would be ideal to work from the original material - as I learned in university that transcodes normally always cut some info... with a Prores 4444 this might be hard to notice for most parts - but probably better to be safe and work from original footage.

                                             

                                            A reference file is of course obligatory

                                            • 19. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                              R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Conforms of long-form projects are normally a complex thing, no question. Patrick Inhofer did a full series of "insights", video tutorials  ... on the MixingLight service.

                                               

                                              Including lengthy sections on time ramps and re-scaling.

                                               

                                              This is something that is best discussed with the colorist before you make the final version to deliver. Find what they need. And I've been told if a colorist doesn't have a list of suggested practices and deliverables for you to follow and provide  ... look for other colorists.

                                               

                                              Anyone telling you they can and will fix anything, well ... may be able to ... but not necessarily the way you want it fixed, may consume much of the budget in the conform ... and the chance of missed or sloppy work goes way up.

                                               

                                              Or so I'm told. But the guys and gals telling me this have rather major credentials.

                                               

                                              Neil

                                              • 20. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                                casquefilm Level 1

                                                Just to make things clear - this Prores 4444 workflow was not suggested by the postproduction facility.

                                                 

                                                The idea came from our side - then the post house said that this is theoretically possible - BUT we have to make sure the color space of the Prores is the same as in the original source footage.

                                                 

                                                Then it was christmas - and I thought I use the free time and research a little regarding outputting Prores from Premiere Pro while preserving the original color space. Nothing was to be found - so I ended up here.

                                                 

                                                Naturally I will talk everything through with the colorist upon his return from holidays, run some tests and together we will work out a feasible workflow. Nobody told me they would "fix anything". It is a well respected facility - I feel safe and in good hands there

                                                 

                                                I just thought I dig into this whole thing a little - try to find out more about Premiere Pro - as this is my first "bigger" professional project using it.

                                                 

                                                THANKS TO EVERYBODY for the input and the effort - I really appreciate it !

                                                • 21. Re: COLOR SPACE at export in Prores
                                                  R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Hey, understood. You gotta ask to learn, right? And you and I both learned some during this discussion so it was a great time well spent!

                                                   

                                                  Best wishes for the project!

                                                   

                                                  Neil