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How Do I Make SD Video Blu-ray Legal While Preserving File Size?

New Here ,
Dec 26, 2018 Dec 26, 2018

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Hi, I'm trying to build a Blu-ray project that has a mix of HD and SD video. All of the HD video files I bring into Encore as M2TS files are accepted as Blu-ray legal (as indicated by the transcode settings defaulting to "Do Not Transcode"), but none of the SD video seems to work without Encore wanting to transcode it. I can make it Blu-ray legal by taking it into Premiere Pro and exporting it as an MPEG2 Blu-ray file, but even without the audio track (which I've demuxed separately), that nearly quadruples the file size (1.32 GB up to 4.68 GB).

This thread from 2010 has someone encountering a similar problem which they were able to solve by demuxing the streams and using TMP GENC Authoring Works to save the video in a Blu-ray legal format without needing to re-encode, but that software is both expensive and not compatible with macOS which are both problems for me.

Does anyone know of ways to accomplish this same goal without using TMP? I'd like to be able to fit this on a single BD-DL which is absolutely doable with the original file sizes, but is impossible after PrePro makes them 3.5 times larger.

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Community Expert ,
Dec 26, 2018 Dec 26, 2018

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lol. That was one of the threads I was going to link for you. There were non-TmpGenc options.

If you are not providing a Blu-ray legal format, it must be DVD legal, i.e. MPEG2-DVD. It can't just be SD. So what format is your SD you are wanting to use?

But you don't have to transcode it to MPEG2 Blu-ray. Use MPEG2 DVD. And the regular DVD bitrates are fine, which keeps the filesize down.

I just did a test, and a classic SD avi and a 4K h.264, both exported from PR as MPEG2-DVD, imported to Encore as "Do not transcode" for the BD status.

However, an odd wmv I had that is 1280x720 would not work.

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New Here ,
Dec 26, 2018 Dec 26, 2018

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The original files I'm working with are in MKV packages. The first thing I tried to do was to use tsMuxer to remux the MKVs into M2TS files. This worked for the 1080p content, but anything lower than 1080p Encore doesn't seem to like (even HD video at 720p).

In order for Premiere to output an MPEG2 DVD file that gets even close the file size of the original MKV, I have to have a target bitrate at 1.5 Mbps. I'm currently exporting a video with those settings to see if it'll be useable (it's an SD bonus feature; it doesn't have to look stunning), but it's frustrating that I have to re-encode it at all when remuxing the MKV into an M2TS file works perfectly for 1080 video.

UPDATE: Yeah, encoding at 1.5 Mbps is a no-go. Just looks awful. There's got to be some way to make SD video Blu-ray legal without massively increasing the file size while still preserving the original quality.

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Community Expert ,
Dec 27, 2018 Dec 27, 2018

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No, not necessarily. mkv does not have to be DVD or BD legal. So no guarantee you can get the same quality at the same, or smaller, file size. But yes, that is the challenge: to repackage (no transcode of the video) or transcode to a format that Encore (or some other app) will accept as legal without transcoding yet again.

What is actually in the mkv? Post a screenshot (in "tree" view) of mediainfo of a file.

FYI, I can't tell if you already know this. As of PR 2018.1.1, there is limited, undocumented support for mkv. So if you haven't, see if you can take an mkv directly into PR and export. If that is what you are doing, let us know.

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New Here ,
Dec 27, 2018 Dec 27, 2018

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Here are screenshots of the MediaInfo trees for the three files I'm having trouble with.

First up is a 720p video:

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.44.18 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.44.31 AM.png

Second is the first of the SD videos:

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.47.34 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.47.43 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.48.06 AM.png

And here is the second SD video. Note, I'm not using all three audio tracks on this one, just Audio #1.

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.59.18 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.59.29 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 8.59.41 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 9.00.00 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-27 at 9.00.06 AM.png

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Community Expert ,
Dec 27, 2018 Dec 27, 2018

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The first one is the dimensions I had trouble with (1280x720). The second 2 are odd pixel sizes: 704x288 and 720x364. Not sure what issues might be involved in trying to a legal mpeg. But that is part of how the bitrate is so low.

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New Here ,
Dec 27, 2018 Dec 27, 2018

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Yeah, for those clips I’m trying an experiment. I brought them into Premiere so I could export them out at the standard 720x480 resolution (albeit with a  massive file size), and now I’m re-re-encoding them in Handbrake to bring the file size back down in the hopes that I can then mux the MKV file into an M2TS container like I was able to do for the 1080p footage.

I’m not confident this will work, but I don’t know what else to try at this point.

UPDATE: And, of course it didn't work, although I think I might have discovered part of the problem. According to this, Encore only likes video with a framerate of 29.97 when it's interlaced. The video outputting from Premiere is interlaced, but when I re-encode it in Handbrake (even with the deinterlacing filters turned off), MediaInfo is showing that it's progressive. Is there a way to force Handbrake (or a similar software) to encode the video as interlaced?

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New Here ,
Dec 28, 2018 Dec 28, 2018

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This is enormously frustrating. After an entire day spent re-encoding these videos in a last ditch effort to try to make this work, they're now exactly match the specs in the post I linked to above, but Encore still isn't treating them as Blu-ray legal. I don't know what else to do. Outputting as M2Vs from Premiere works, but it makes them too large to fit on the disc I'm building, and any attempt I've made to bring the file size back down to manageable levels has been met with failure. It shouldn't be this difficult.

Here are the MediaInfo screencaps for the two files, if that helps. I'm at a complete loss.

Screen Shot 2018-12-28 at 8.26.04 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-28 at 8.26.24 AM.png

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd really appreciate it. I don't know what else to try at this point.

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Community Expert ,
Dec 28, 2018 Dec 28, 2018

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Since I don't think I said it, I'd go back to the DVD and start with the VOBs.

The "maximum overall bitrate" is 35-40Mbps, way over the target/average, suggesting huge spikes. That alone can convince Encore they are out of spec.

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New Here ,
Dec 28, 2018 Dec 28, 2018

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Interesting. Now that I'm looking at it, the "Maximum Overall Bitrate" spec isn't introduced until I convert into M2TS using tsMuxer. I just tried it on the (much larger) M2V file and it adds the "Maximum Overall Bitrate" spec at 35.5 Mbps, but it's still recognized as Blu-ray legal in Encore. For comparison's sake, here's the version of the file that works:

Screen Shot 2018-12-28 at 9.58.16 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-12-28 at 9.58.23 AM.png

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Community Expert ,
Dec 28, 2018 Dec 28, 2018

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That may not be the problem; just a possibility. Some of these numbers are "nominal," meaning the program plugs in metadata based on a setting, and it may or may not be "real."

Also, different encoders may be better or worse at actually delivering what they say. For example, a max bitrate of 8 may have spikes higher than that.

Note however, that the max bitrate under the video section is only 9 for the files that works, and 40 for the ones that don't.

Encore has a minimum bitrate, I think it is 1.5. That is the lowest setting it allows, and I think it treats files with lower bitrates as not legal. Yours appear above that.

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New Here ,
Dec 28, 2018 Dec 28, 2018

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At this point I think I'm just about ready to throw in the towel and spread the content across two discs instead of trying to fit it all on one. It's all just incredibly frustrating.

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Guide ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

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I can understand the frustration here - getting supplied files to the correct specs can be an unbelievably frustrating experience.

It should be perfectly permissible to use both HD & SD on one disc in Blu-ray. The difficulty, as you have discovered - is always the file type needs to be correct. The best place to begin is to know what your spec legal options are (so we can discover if the issue is in Encore (in which case we need to find an alternate solution) or in what you are trying to attempt. If you are going to be doing a lot of this, I can warn you in advance you will end up collecting some very eclectic software along the way as utilities seem to help no end. You have an issue right there though, as Mac are just not Blu friendly. Worry about this later and I only mention it as you earlier dismissed the TMPG tool as a suggested workaround for being too expensive which at $100 is - for what it is capable of - incredibly cheap.

I know I bought it just to attempt one file format conversion, which it did a pretty good job of that time although did let me down on a completely different project but I ramble on and digress, as I am prone to doing. Sorry.

So - back to the specs. Blu-ray has several legal frame rates & sizes as follows:

i/. 1920x1080 (aka"Full HD") allowing frame rates of 29.97i, 25i, 24p and 23.976p

ii/. 1440x1080 allowing frame rates of 29.97i, 25i, 24p and 23.96p

iii/. 1280x720 allowing frame rates of 59.94p, 50p, 24p and 23.976p

iv/. 720x576 allowing a frame rate of 25i

v/. 720x480 allowing a frame rate of 29.97i

Better still, you also have 3 different codecs available to you

1 - H264/AVC as .264, .avc & .bsf (the latter may not be in Encore)

2 - VC-1 (as .wmv - this is the old Windows Media Video 9 type)

3 - MPEG-2 - not (and this is important) configured for DVD though and available as .m2v, .mp2s & .mpg.

The first thing to take note of I think is that the SD resolution needs to be interlaced - you cannot use 23.976 or 24p, and you most definitely cannot use 25p or 29.97p - everything in SD must be interlaced so all footage in SD NTSC must therefore be at 29.97, ideally upper field first but if source was all BFF then it is vitally important to not change this without checking the results on an old style glass monitor, as LCD panels will not reveal interlacing artefacts and if you get those in the final encode it will ruin your day.

I am banging on about this at length because unless I am reading you incorrectly, in post 7 above you detail a file that is still giving issues, and it is an NTSC SD piece at 23.976 progressive scan - this is just not Blu-ray legal.

The best rule of thumb is to think of it this way -

A - Progressive Scan is always 23.976/24fps.

B - Anything in old style PAL or NTSC resolutions will be interlaced.

Yes, there is an exception but it is so rarely seen it can by & large get ignored.

Your biggest problem is the wide array of source file resolutions - it looks like some were MPEG-1 or half size MPEG-2 (there were some odd things done in early days of DVD) and the easiest way out is to plan the assets out in advance - it seems to me a certain amount of re-encoding may well be necessary but this will depend on your original source.  Are you still having trouble? I ask as I am late to this party

NB - I do find it very strange that Stan was able to import MPEG-2 DVD encoded files for use in a BD project with no issues for re-transcoding (first reply above). I would take a wager that it would get re-transcoded during disc build, or may even trigger a fail although I could be wrong.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

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Neil, thanks for jumping in. Very useful info.

SD on BD is an interesting issue. I interpreted some comments in old posts as saying this worked, but in each one I found, it was not clear whether the expert was confirming what I am now saying (that an MPEG2-DVD transcode is "BD legal"). Except for this one from Jon Geddes: "...Encore and the BD spec allows for standard dvd formatted mpeg2 files to be authored onto a Blu-ray disc without any transcoding."

Re: How do you place 10 hours on a BD with Encore?

I went back to the test files I used, and can confirm that MPEG2-DVD format exports from PR a) import to EN as "do not transcode" for both DVD and BD and b) once built (to m2ts streams - using a folder output for convenience) show the same characteristics as the m2v files (bitrate, interlacing, etc).

But there are differences in the 2 formats that carry across to the m2ts. The MPEG2-DVD is GOP M3/N15 and interlaced bottom field first, while the MPEG2 Blu-ray is GOP M3/N12 and interlaced top field first. The source file was a classic Sony camera SD DV clip. I see that, for no good reason, I used MPEG2-DVD VBR max 7; MPEG2 Blu-ray CBR 10.

I did burn this to disk, and it plays back on a BD player to HD TV with no apparent difference between the 2 types.

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