Another, but more specific, Color Management question

[Guest]

I know that Color Management has been done quite a bit in here and on the net as I've read a number of posts and threads, and although I think I may almost have gotten it (finally!), I have a couple of questions.

This is my set up:

1. I have calibrated my monitor using a i1Display device. That created a profile called 20190119_S1.icm.
   
   
2. My camera is a Sony A7iii. My understanding (kind of) is that the Sony "embeds" the color profile AdobeRGB into RAW stills that it takes. This is an important point to my question as this could be a misunderstanding on my part.
   
   
3. In Photoshop, I have set my Color Management as follows (using my 20190119_S1.icm calibration):  
   
4. When I check, the Color Settings are "synchronised" across all Adobe apps, most importantly (for me) that means Adobe Photo Raw.

My Questions:

1. Have I configured this correctly to get consistent colors across the board? The reason for doing this set up is that I find that at times, exported photos are slightly darker with more crushed shadow detail than in the original edits.
   
   
2. I must admit, the point 2 I made above above about the Sony a7iii embedding AdobeRGB into the Raw photos seems wrong to me as I though Raw photos would have no "color settings" as such. But the reason I assumed that the camera was stamping Adobe RGB into the photos was that even with color settings synched across Photoshop and Photo Raw, when I open a Raw photo in Photo Raw and then immediately open in Photoshop, I get this warning:
   
   So I was guessing that the Adobe RGB must be coming from the original photo.
   
   Assuming I want to work throughout the entire workflow with 20190119_S1, what should I chose when I get the above warning? 
   
   
3. When exporting my photos to .png or .jpg, I seem to have two options: One is to "Convert to sRGB" and the other is to include the "Embedded Profile". From my tests, it seems that in order to preserve the same colors and tones from the original edits into the exported files, I should not "Convert to sRGB" (causes the picture to darken and crush shadow details), but should instead use the "Embedded Profile" option. Is this correct and if so, is there a way in Photoshop to default to this (no option for "Embedded Profile" in Edit -> Preferences -> Export).

Many thanks

[Lumigraphics]

Why do you have color management turned off?

[Guest]

Thanks for replying Lumigraphics,

Are you saying that I have the Color Management Policies in my Color Settings wrong? I think I picked the default options, but now that you mention it, I guess the settings in screen shot below may be more correct? I'm not sure I fully understood what the "Color Management Policies" meant. I thought they had to do with exporting, but thinking about it more now, I guess they don't. They have to do with working with photos?

Are the above more correct?

By the way, when I open the file in Photoshop and get asked how I want to handle the difference between the embedded and working color profile (second screen shot in my original post), I actually choose "Convert document's colors to working space". So I guess that does the same as the "Convert to working..." options under "Color Management Polices" in the above screen? Is that my missing link? I just need to set the screen as shown above?

Thanks again.

[Per Berntsen · Accepted solution]

mf_gleeson2  wrote

Are you saying that I have the Color Management Policies in my Color Settings wrong? I think I picked the default options, but now that you mention it, I guess the settings in screen shot below may be more correct?

Yes,the settings are wrong.

First, set the RGB working space to a standard color space like sRGB or Adobe RGB. You should never use the monitor profile as a working space – it effectively disables color management.

Then change all Color Management Policies to Preserve Embedded profiles. Since Photoshop is color managed, it will display images correctly with the embedded profile, whatever profile that is.

Once you've done all this, restart Photoshop.

When exporting my photos to .png or .jpg, I seem to have two options: One is to "Convert to sRGB" and the other is to include the "Embedded Profile". From my tests, it seems that in order to preserve the same colors and tones from the original edits into the exported files, I should not "Convert to sRGB" (causes the picture to darken and crush shadow details), but should instead use the "Embedded Profile" option. Is this correct and if so, is there a way in Photoshop to default to this (no option for "Embedded Profile" in Edit -> Preferences -> Export).

When exporting, always check both Convert to sRGB and Embed profile.

The darkening you mention probably happened because you had the monitor profile set as the RGB working space.

My camera is a Sony A7iii. My understanding (kind of) is that the Sony "embeds" the color profile AdobeRGB into RAW stills that it takes.

Raw files are greyscale files and don't have a color profile. When the raw file is rendered and opened in Photoshop, it will have the profile you have chosen in the Workflow settings in Camera raw. (click the underlined text at the bottom of the screen)

The color profile settings in the camera are for jpgs only.

[davescm]

Hi

Those settings are still not ideal

Set working spaces to AdobeRGB or sRGB. You could set as Prophoto but that can cause some other issues as it is much bigger than even a wide gamut monitor can display.

Set color management policies to Preserve Embeded Profiles. That way Photoshop will use (and not change)  the color space of any document it opens.

Here are mine for info:

Note - the monitor profile should be loaded into your operating system by the software you used to create it. You don't have to do anything yourself to load it.

When exporting jpegs for viewing elswhere the safest is to Convert to sRGB and Embed colour profile. That way if the viewer is color managed it will look correct. If it is not then it will look close on standard monitors. If anyone is using wide gamut monitors with viewers that are not colour managed it will look incorrect - but so will most other images they view.

Dave

[Guest]

Thanks All, that was incredibly helpful. I have it now!

[D Fosse]

Yes, excellent answers in this thread, all of them correct.

It's an interesting phenomenon that so many people get a calibrator and then think they have to do something with the profile. mf_gleeson is certainly not alone in making that mistake, it's very common. The stock answer is always "don't do anything. Leave everything at defaults".

I think it would help to tighten up the Color Settings dialog. It's far too easy to make a complete mess here. The policy options should just be removed, and "preserve embedded profiles" should be hard-wired. The other options don't serve any useful purpose, but great potential for damage. I'm all for options, but this is like gun control.

That would also get rid of the annoying and useless warnings. Except "missing profile", which should always come up.

Limiting working spaces to the standard ones would be very tempting - but that wouldn't work for CMYK, and we do want consistency. Perhaps a little warning in the "description" field at the bottom?

And while I'm at it - for god's sake, embed the profile by default in SFW and Export! If for no other reason, then at least for consistent behavior.

[Lumigraphics]

Being a photographer, I typically work in ProPhotoRGB and preserve embedded profiles. I render RAW files into ProPhoto per Adobe's recommendation.

One final step when you have everything set- save the settings as a color settings profile. If you use Bridge or other Adobe software, synchronize those apps to that saved profile. That way all your applications behave the same way.

[D Fosse]

Actually there's no particular reason to synchronize application color settings. With the proper settings, the application will behave correctly and predictably - according to specific uses and needs. You don't necessarily want all applications to behave identically in all scenarios.

For instance, in Photoshop you'll want "preserve embedded profiles" for CMYK, if you mainly work with photographs. In InDesign, however, "preserve embedded" can be a disaster waiting to happen - here you want "preserve numbers (ignore linked)", to avoid K-only turning into 4 color.

Grayscale handling is another area where different apps require different policies.

My personal dislike for ProPhoto is well covered in many of my posts lately, so I won't go into that

[JohanElzenga]

1: You have set your working profile to the monitor profile. That is not correct. Choose AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, sRGB or one of the other working color spaces, not your monitor color profile.

2: The camera setting is irrelevant when you shoot in raw. Camera settings are ignored. The color profile is only determined by the Camera Raw settings. From the 'Embedded Profile Mismatch' dialog we can conclude that Camera Raw is set to AdobeRGB right now.

3: I don't know what you finally choose in this dialog, but if you choose 'Discard the Embedded Profile' (like the screenshot shows), then you turn off all color management. The result will be that the colors are wrong.

Maybe you should read this: https://www.color-management-guide.com/color-settings-photoshop.html