10 Replies Latest reply on Oct 26, 2006 12:38 AM by Necromanthus

    multiple views without instancing

    tyree_2 Level 2
      Ive seen the question asked about this. and it doesnt seem to be widely used. using multiple cameras diplaying multiple views of one scene, at one time, without having to use instances. why so many opt not to use it I dont know. when it should be used. on a very standard basis. for those that play the playstion or xbox systems. you have most likely seen a game where a second window opens up. You can do the the exact same thing in shockwave 3d. so why not use it. Say you have a character walking thru a house. and the camera is following that character. You can take a seperate camera, in a seperate part of the house. Showing another person coming from behind the first person in a second window displaying both windows at the same time. You can actually create mood and atmosphere. There isnt a single shot in movies or tv that cant be created in 3d and therefore shockwave 3d, be it split screens or not. So why not use it. This is like if all the people that use flash opt not to use flash video. when that is one of its strongest features. well here is a very simple example of it

      www.bleed3d.com/rotating%20cameras.htm
        • 1. Re: multiple views without instancing
          Level 7
          tyree_2 wrote:
          > Ive seen the question asked about this. and it doesnt seem to be widely used.
          > using multiple cameras diplaying multiple views of one scene, at one time,
          > without having to use instances. why so many opt not to use it I dont know.
          > when it should be used. on a very standard basis. for those that play the
          > playstion or xbox systems. you have most likely seen a game where a second
          > window opens up. You can do the the exact same thing in shockwave 3d. so why
          > not use it. Say you have a character walking thru a house. and the camera is
          > following that character. You can take a seperate camera, in a seperate part of
          > the house. Showing another person coming from behind the first person in a
          > second window displaying both windows at the same time. You can actually create
          > mood and atmosphere. There isnt a single shot in movies or tv that cant be
          > created in 3d and therefore shockwave 3d, be it split screens or not. So why
          > not use it. This is like if all the people that use flash opt not to use flash
          > video. when that is one of its strongest features. well here is a very simple
          > example of it
          >
          > www.bleed3d.com/rotating%20cameras.htm
          >

          Hi, I don´t get your point at all and still don´t get why you say we
          ´should´ be used. In my case, I started using the feature you praise but
          then I ran a performance comparison between adding a new camera to the
          sprite and using two separate sprites and last one was faster by a fair
          amount.

          Cheers,
          --
          Agustín María Rodríguez

          www.onwine.com.ar > Macromedia Director demos & code
          • 2. Re: multiple views without instancing
            tyree_2 Level 2
            if the performance hit was that great than you obviously did the right thing, but with seperate sprites the two cannot overlap, with a single sprite the cameras are already overlapping, which makes it possible to get views that you cant get from a scene. when your using instances. Visually this aspect of shockwave 3d deserves a second look
            • 3. Re: multiple views without instancing
              duckets Level 1

              Yes 2nd cameras in a scene can be interesting, but I don't think theres often a call for these in normal 3d productions such as games, walkthroughs or product demos.

              My most common need for 2nd cameras in the same scene, which I use all the time, is for skyboxes. For this, you need to have both cameras extending over the entire sprite rect at the same size. The first camera (for the skybox) has its rootnode set to a group containing the skybox - it therefore doesn't draw any other models. The second camera is displayed over the top, with its 'clearAtRender' value set to false, so any areas within the camera rect which don't contain models leave a gap through which you can see the skybox behind. |You can then match the skybox camera's rotation to the main game camera's rotation (but without changing the skybox cam's position).



              - Ben
              • 4. Re: multiple views without instancing
                tyree_2 Level 2
                I believe games benefit a great deal from a second or multiple cameras, one view is simply not enough in 3d. and 3d is a visual medium the fact that shockwave 3d isnt held to the same standard as video, tv, paintings and drawings hurts it. regardless of how well something may function. if it doesnt display the same level of quality of the artforms before it. The chances of it being accepted by the masses is reduced greatly. Flash has proven that it can do all the previous artforms. which is one of the reasons it is so widely used. But the thing is shockwave 3d can do it also and do it better because your not limited to a flat 2 dimensional box. The shockwave 3d users have choosen or ignored or have not considered the fact that displaying their work with the same level of quality, look and feel of the previous artforms will cause a greater interest in thier work and the program as a whole. When you can show the public that you can do the artforms they are already familiar with and do it with a twist, because of the added benefits of 3d thats when the public. will look at it and say maybe thats something I should consider using
                • 5. Re: multiple views without instancing
                  duckets Level 1
                  quote:

                  Originally posted by: tyree_2
                  I believe games benefit a great deal from a second or multiple cameras, one view is simply not enough in 3d.


                  Really?... what exactly do you think should be displayed in a 2nd camera view in games like Half Life, Colin McCrae, GTA, ? How would it benefit the game? Do you think the developers of these games didn't add 2nd camera views because they just didn't think of it? Really there are very few game types where a second camera view would be anything other than distracting (which is why commecial games rarely use them).

                  quote:

                  The shockwave 3d users have choosen or ignored or have not considered the fact that displaying their work with the same level of quality, look and feel of the previous artforms will cause a greater interest in thier work and the program as a whole.


                  Who is it that you're talking about Tyree? As I understand you, you seem to have quite a strong - but at the same time directionless - political view, aimed at some vague mass of developers who in your opinion aren't really bothering with the quality of their work? I think it's more likely the case that all shockwave 3d developers actually strive to achieve the highest level of quality possible, rather than ignoring or not even considering that aspect of their work! What is holding back the quality of sw3d is mostly dev team sizes & funding, the lack of which is partly caused by the slower uptake of the shockwave plug-in compared to flash, which in turn - in my opinion - can be partly attributed to the embarrasingly poor install process of the shockwave plug-in. But now we're going off at a bit of a tangent!

                  - Ben

                  • 6. multiple views without instancing
                    tyree_2 Level 2
                    Im not referring to resources Im referring to visual delivery here is a very simple scene nothing special just a sphere but its interesting to look at

                    www.bleed3d.com/rotating%20cameras.htm.

                    and no I dont believe as a whole shockwave 3d authors are challenging what is accepted or what is normal. I also dont believe that the size of the plugin is really a problem. keep in mind people downloading movies and content in excess of 100 mb is the norm. I have never had someone that did not have the plugin installed already, complain to me about the size of the plugin. I believe it has more to do with whether or not they feel it was worth it afterwards. which goes back to whether or not the content is entertaining. which is what Im referring to. about the cameras anything can be used wrong , a single camera only shows a small portion of the screen, and has to be rotated,having a second camera that shows the rest or more of it would not hurt
                    • 7. Re: multiple views without instancing
                      duckets Level 1
                      quote:

                      Originally posted by: tyree_2
                      Im not referring to resources Im referring to visual delivery here is a very simple scene nothing special just a sphere but its interesting to look at


                      But resources, in terms of manpower and funding is a huge factor which directly affects the end quality of the visuals. This is a lot of the reason that most commercial games require huge teams and huge amounts of funding. If we had double the time available (i.e. funding) and double the team size for our projects, we would be able to deliver much higher visual quality in terms of time spent modelling characters and levels, and time spent adjusting and improving visual routines.

                      Incidentally, the demo you posted is actually quite boring to look at! Adding a second camera view of something that is already very dull doesn't make it significantly more interesting :-)

                      quote:

                      I also dont believe that the size of the plugin is really a problem. keep in mind people downloading movies and content in excess of 100 mb is the norm.


                      If you read my post more carefully, you'll see that I said the plugin install "process", not the size. I agree with you that the size is not so much of an issue particularly now broadband is more widespread. But the number of dialogue boxes that must be click through, the 'age request', the toolbar option, the redirect to shockwave.com.... it's appalling and I am embarrassed when a client needs to see that, when we pitch a shockwave game to them. It's a major hinderance to selling shockwave work to clients.

                      I really don't understand how you think adding a second camera view would inherently raise the 'standard' or make a project more entertaining. In almost all cases, unless it was for some specific purpose that was relevant to the project, I think the user would think, "what's that extra camera view for?".

                      - Ben

                      • 8. Re: multiple views without instancing
                        Necromanthus Level 2
                        quote:

                        Originally posted by: BEN
                        I really don't understand how you think adding a second camera view would inherently raise the 'standard' or make a project more entertaining. In almost all cases, unless it was for some specific purpose that was relevant to the project, I think the user would think, "what's that extra camera view for?".


                        Don't waste your time trying to understand a "shockwave pioneer".
                        He is above our understanding ...
                        • 9. Re: multiple views without instancing
                          tyree_2 Level 2
                          I agree with you about the process the advertisements dont have anything to do with the install. The extra view applies more to 3rd person than a 1st since, say your fighting a dozen people from different directions and distances, having a second view that shows the parts of the screen the first view does not. I doubt would be unwelcome. take metal gear solid the first one, for the playstation one. the radar screen was a window and it could be turned off. If you didnt want to use it
                          • 10. Re: multiple views without instancing
                            Necromanthus Level 2
                            quote:

                            Originally posted by: tyree_2
                            The extra view applies more to 3rd person than a 1st since, say your fighting a dozen people from different directions and distances, having a second view that shows the parts of the screen the first view does not. I doubt would be unwelcome. take metal gear solid the first one, for the playstation one. the radar screen was a window and it could be turned off. If you didnt want to use it


                            That "extra view" is called OVERLAY and you don't need the second camera to generate it.
                            Study this tutorial to understand the method: http://necromanthus.com/Games/ShockWave/tutorials/Mirror.html
                            p.s.
                            Need for Speed is using the "second view" but I always disable it ... LOL