11 Replies Latest reply on May 17, 2008 8:58 AM by

    Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign

    Gusgsm Level 2
      Good afternoon, folks

      We have managed to make our first profile for a laser Minolta 7450 we have here. I know it's not a proofing device and I don't try to substitute real proofs with whatever comes out this machine and our brains.

      However, trying to get better first proofs to make a better approximation and so as to shorten/enhance our workflow...

      Printing with a gravure identified with ECI's PSGravureSC profile (or so they say), having the monitor properly profiled, having built a (so-so by now) profile for the minolta...

      Is there a way that we could more or less simulate via InDesign CS2 the gravure profile with the laser one? It seems that the laser profile embraces almost all the gravure color space but a bit extreme yellows and oranges.

      Naïvely yours (I suspect),

      Gustavo

      Posted from a rainy Spain
        • 1. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
          Gustavo,

          a similar workflow is described here:
          http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/oki-ps-28082005.pdf

          This printer can be used for 'simplified proof printing'.
          Opposed to inkjets, one doesn't use linearization,
          just one print of targets, without the need for waiting
          to dry. Thus, the drift can be compensated by fresh
          calibration.

          Color Management can be host based (InDesign) or
          printer based (PostScript printer).
          Printing by InDesign CS2, PostScript printer based,
          doesn't work at all. In a thread nearby you can find
          the opinion of an expert that PostScript color
          management is anyway buggy (expressed by my words).

          It works for printing by Acrobat (unique & good solution).

          Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann
          • 2. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
            Gusgsm Level 2
            Hi, Gernot

            Thanks for your answer but what I am trying to find is where can I set the best proofing for that conditions in InDesign CS2.

            Printer Profile (Minolta) -> Rotative Profile (PSGravureSC) (with absolute colorimetric)? If so where and how in IDCS2?

            So...
            • 3. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
              Gustavo,

              here comes a description for proof printing by ID CS2, but let
              me use my examples.

              Assumptions:
              The printer is a PostScript device.
              All images are converted by PhS into the final color space,
              here ISOCoated, at your place Gravure.
              The common CMYK space, as synchronized by Bridge, is the same.
              Profiles are not embedded.
              The printer is calibrated.
              The output profile is called here oki-cfull-30042008.icc.

              Settings in ID:
              Define a new print preset:
              Print preset: ProofA4Landscape (for instance)
              Output: Composite CMYK / Text as Black
              Graphics: Send Data: All
              Color Management:
              Print: Proof
              Color Handling: Let ID determine Colors *)
              Printer Profile: oki-cfull-30042008

              Settings in the printer menue:
              No color management (eventually obsolete, see *), has to be tested)
              CMYK input profile None (eventually obsolete, has to be tested)
              Rendering Intent: Relative Colorimetric or Absolute Colorimetric
              Absolute Col. would theoretically put yellow toner on paper
              with optical brighteners. I'm using Relative Col..

              There are altogether about 50 parameters for such a PostScript
              printer (that's the reason for writing my doc).

              Personally I think, that proof printing should be done only
              for print ready PDF/X docs. There is really no guarantee that
              the ID doc represents already the print ready version sufficiently
              accurate. Soft proofing by ID is only half the truth.

              Professional Acrobat offers good test facilities for PDFs,
              which helps to avoid wasting of paper&toner&time for printing
              not compliant versions:
              Print Production > Preflight
              Print Production > Output Preview.

              Based on experiences with QMS-Minolta 6100 and OKI C9600:
              Custom output profiles require a harddisk in the printer.

              Hope this helps a little. About the special conditions of
              'Gravure' I can't add anything.

              Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann
              • 4. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                In the mode 'Proof' the rendering intent is always
                Absolute Colorimetric and 'Simulate Paper Color'
                is an option.

                More about here:
                http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/pdfs/cscolormgmt.pdf

                G.H.
                • 5. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                  Gusgsm Level 2
                  Gernot,

                  In the mode 'Proof' the rendering intent is always
                  Absolute Colorimetric and 'Simulate Paper Color'
                  is an option.


                  That was what was annoying me and causing me doubts. I thought that 'absolute colorimetric' rendering purpose always implied setting as 'white' the paper color (thus rendering that color as well).

                  I am playing a bit with it and I would be reasonably pleased with the results if it weren't because the resulting white (in printed paper wirh the laser Minolta) is rather more yellowish that the final output in printed copies.

                  However, somehow I have the sneaking suspicion that 'real' final output is not so PSGravureSC as we have been told. At least, the digital proofs we receive are not hitting the nail 100%... somehow.

                  Gotta investigate a bit more. No obligation = fun.
                  • 6. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                    (Marco_Ugolini) Level 1
                    >I am playing a bit with it and I would be reasonably pleased with the results if it weren't because the resulting white (in printed paper wirh the laser Minolta) is rather more yellowish that the final output in printed copies.

                    The following might be obvious already, but I thought I'd mention it anyway: the paper that you use for your in-house proofs on the laser printer must be brighter and more neutral than the one you are trying to simulate.

                    That's the only way you can mimic the darker and yellower target paper. You cannot do that if the paper in your proofing device is darker and/or more yellow than the one you are aiming to simulate.
                    • 7. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                      Lou Dina Level 3
                      To add to Marco's post, which is quite correct, if you are using Absolute Colorimetric rendering for proofing, it helps to trim off any white borders when evaluating your proof. They eye latches onto these white borders and uses them to "self calibrate" thus making the whites in your image look dirty and dull in comparison. Laying down color in your whites to simulate the final paper color also reduces dynamic range a little.

                      This is not an issue with Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric, since they don't lay down inks to simulate paper color. This is one reason I typically use Relative Colorimetric for proofing and try to find a suitable proofing paper that mimics the final paper used to print the job.

                      Lou
                      • 8. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                        In my humble opinion, the color management in
                        InDesign CS2 is considerably wrong.
                        A choice of numerous test results is shown here in
                        chapter 9:
                        http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/oki-ps-28082005.pdf

                        a) Printer based CMS by ID is totally wrong.
                        b) Host based CMS by ID leads to not satisfying results.
                        c) Host based CMS by ID in Proof mode with 'Simulate
                        Paper Color' leads to exaggerated yellowish tints
                        for paper with brightener.

                        And so on. Maybe my tests are wrong, but who offers
                        better tests ?

                        Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann
                        • 9. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                          Chapter 9 is preliminary, concerning the details.
                          G.H. May 16 / 2008
                          • 10. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                            Gusgsm Level 2
                            Hi, Marco & Lou

                            No trouble about paper brightness and, though not deead sure about it's neutrality, I think it's OK.

                            As odd as it might sound, the most troublesome issue here is that illumination in the office is as bad as it can be on quality and that I feel that the PSGravureSC is not really describing what we are printing. I mean: I would like to measure our printing paper white and the profile white because I think they are different. That is: Bot spaces are not really the same (hence my rub about the whole issue).

                            On the other hand, I profiled my monitor with a ColorEyes + EyeOne (5.000 K) and the 'sofproofs' and the proofs the service bureau send do coincide reasonably well.

                            As I said before: No obligation means fun. Besides, I've got to play with my new colormunki, haven't I? ;P
                            • 11. Re: Trying to make inhouse first proofs with InDesign
                              Gustavo,

                              profile white doesn't have to be measured, it's
                              defined in the profile, here for PSRgravureSC.icc:
                              L*= 88.9
                              a*=-0.35
                              b*=+4.39
                              This is a somewhat gray paper with a weak yellow tint,
                              darker than ordinary coated offset paper and more
                              yellowish.
                              But measuring the final printing paper is probably
                              necessary.
                              The mentioned profile is valid for paper with about
                              50g/m2, rather thin stock. In such a case the back
                              side is shining through and measuring is difficult.
                              The newer ECI profiles are based on white back.
                              I'm not sure how this is called in English: the front
                              is printed on plain paper, the other side is unprinted,
                              and for measuring a white background is put under the
                              page.

                              Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann