1 2 Previous Next 48 Replies Latest reply on Sep 1, 2009 7:11 AM by neuelex

    Indesign RGB printing

      Hi we have Indesin CS3 and we have great problems printing to our Inkjet printers getting wild variations on colour

      we have an eye one calibrator and have no problems calibrating and get great results

      we need to use indesign to print several photographs and text from indesign

      Ie template with photos text boxes with ids and logos we do not wish to manipulate the images as they are medical shots and we require the original colours / exposure

      when printing indesign uses "composite" whereas photoshop uses RGB

      any suggestions as to where i am going wrong please.

      Paul
        • 1. Re: Indesign RGB printing
          Lou Dina Level 3
          Paul,

          I used to see some interesting color problems and variations when printing ID files to RGB devices too. I am using CS2. I had many discussions about the problem with Adobe, but they never solved it, to my knowledge. I did find a work around.

          Export the file to Acrobat using the ID Export feature and leave color unchanged. Or, you could convert the entire file to a single RGB output space, such as Adobe RGB. Print from Acrobat and these problems disappear.

          I don't know if these problems were corrected in later versions or not. CMYK files print fine, but RGB had some issues. Give PDF a try. Hope it works for you.
          • 2. Re: Indesign RGB printing
            Gernot Hoffmann Level 3
            Lou,

            there are problems as well for printing by ID CS2
            to a calibrated PostScript toner printer.
            Chapter 9 here:
            http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/oki-ps-28082005.pdf

            Finally I gave up - I'm printing now only PDFs.

            Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann
            • 3. Re: Indesign RGB printing
              Lou Dina Level 3
              Thanks, Gernot.

              I wasn't aware of that. I had many discussions with Adobe about the printing problems with IDCS2, especially RGB data files. I suspect there is some flaw in their print engine. They never did solve the problem.

              All the IDCS2 jobs I have sent to press (CMYK) printed beautifully, and also on their proofer (Epson 9800, driven by a CMYK RIP). Their proofs matched mine almost exactly (mine were printed from PDF via RGB driver and custom profiles). So, I assumed CMYK was okay.

              Cheers, Lou
              • 4. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                Was DYP Level 3
                This thread should answer most of your IDCS 3 & 4 printing to RGB devices questions Mac OSX.

                http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?7@@.59b52c9e/17
                • 5. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                  Lou Dina Level 3
                  DYP,

                  Thanks for the link; I read through the thread. I am using IDCS 2, which supposedly predated these RGB output problems, but I have found it to be a problem also. In fact, it doesn't have the "Print as Bitmap" box. CS2 gave me fits getting accurate color with RGB output files, and I am no novice when it comes to color management.

                  Like Gernot, the only way I have been able to get accurate color output from IDCS2 is to export to PDF and print from that.

                  Any ideas?

                  Thanks, Lou
                  • 6. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                    Was DYP Level 3
                    Lou

                    I am not sure what OS your running. If it is Windows do you have your printer set as the default?
                    • 7. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                      Lou Dina Level 3
                      DYP,

                      I'm on WinXP Pro. Currently, I have an Epson 2200 desktop printer set as my default in Windows, for letters, quick printouts, etc. When I send anything from PS, ID, IL, Acrobat, etc, I always choose my Canon iPF 6100, and of course, have all the color management settings correct.

                      Are you suggesting that having the 2200 set as the default mucks up the works?

                      Lou
                      • 8. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                        Was DYP Level 3
                        >Are you suggesting that having the 2200 set as the default mucks up the works?

                        Yes I have heard of that problem before. It may not be your problem but there has been a lot of cases reported where color was not correct until the printer you are printing to was set as the default printer.
                        • 9. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                          Lou Dina Level 3
                          Interesting. I'll have to try it, but I'd be amazed if that were truly the problem. Stranger things have happened, though, so who knows? Thanks.

                          Lou
                          • 10. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                            alexgodlex Level 1

                            The link is dead.

                             

                            However i'm using CS4 and still i can't have descent colors !

                            • 12. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                              alexgodlex Level 1

                              The cached version don't work.

                               

                              I'm wondering if it's normal : when i'm tryin to print from Indesign, i can only choose the color correction from the application, and not from the printer, i cannot choose 'no colors corrections' like in Photoshop. Is this normal ?

                               

                              Is it possible to print CMJN document from Indesign with right colors or do we need a RIP ?

                               

                              Maybe its better to export a PDF in RVB and print it from Acrobat ?

                               

                              NB. using CS4

                              • 13. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                alexgodlex wrote:

                                 

                                The cached version don't work.

                                 

                                 

                                Well, duh!  It's two weeks later. 

                                • 14. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                  Was DYP Level 3

                                  I'm wondering if it's normal : when i'm tryin to print from Indesign, i can only choose the color correction from the application, and not from the printer, i cannot choose 'no colors corrections' like in Photoshop. Is this normal ?

                                   

                                  Is it possible to print CMJN document from Indesign with right colors or do we need a RIP ?

                                   

                                  Maybe its better to export a PDF in RVB and print it from Acrobat ?

                                   

                                  NB. using CS4

                                  Choose "Emulate Adobe Indesign 2.0 CMS Off" in Color Settings for no CM from ID.

                                  • 15. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                    alexgodlex Level 1

                                    Interesting. Do you know why is it called 'emulate Indesign 2.0…' and not just 'CMS off' ?

                                    It make me feel strange, like if i'm missing something !

                                     

                                    Another thing i find strange : when i'm in Photoshop in the print option i can choose to turn CMS off (or use the application CM or the printer CM),

                                    here in Indesign i can only choose 'let indesign control the colors' (well its not said like that but i'm translating to english…) and i have no other choice. To me it would have been more normal to be able to choose 'colors from the printer' and 'no color managment at all' in this specific roll over.

                                     

                                    It's stange because the Creative Suite let you synch all the application but its like Indesign use a totaly different way of managing this, compared to Photoshop and Illustrator. It make me anxious !

                                     

                                    The thing is that i'm tryin to print a color chart from Indesign to be able to make a profil of my inket printer (sending the sheets to someone that have the tools to do this). But i need to print this sheets with no managment at all ! (it's 3 Tiff files i have imported in an indesign document).

                                    • 16. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                      Was DYP Level 3

                                      The thing is that i'm tryin to print a color chart from Indesign to be able to make a profil of my inket printer (sending the sheets to someone that have the tools to do this). But i need to print this sheets with no managment at all ! (it's 3 Tiff files i have imported in an indesign document).

                                       

                                      I print color charts all the time from ID with the "Emulate Adobe Indesign 2.0 CMS Off" setting. Works perfectly.

                                       

                                      But you do need to take into consideration the Monitor Profile being introduced into the RGB print flow (Mac only issue). You can use the "Print as Bitmap" setting or if your printer driver bypass Apple print stream (such as Canon drivers with Fast Graphic Process enabled), or you can profile with the monitor profile in the mix, but that does bring other possible issues.

                                      • 17. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                        alexgodlex Level 1

                                        NB. How do you explain that when i print the same image (with no profile) with Indesign 'emulate Indesig 2.0' and in Photoshop with no CMS, i don't have the exact same result ?

                                         

                                        If there is no CMS in both appl, how is it even possible ?

                                        • 18. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                          alexgodlex Level 1

                                          I print color charts all the time from ID with the "Emulate Adobe Indesign 2.0 CMS Off" setting. Works perfectly.

                                           

                                          But you do need to take into consideration the Monitor Profile being introduced into the RGB print flow (Mac only issue). You can use the "Print as Bitmap" setting or if your printer driver bypass Apple print stream (such as Canon drivers with Fast Graphic Process enabled), or you can profile with the monitor profile in the mix, but that does bring other possible issues.

                                           

                                          I heard about something like this but i thought it was a bug related to CS3. And i'm using CS4. Don't you think it's even possible that Adobe never fxied such an important problem ??

                                           

                                          By the way, i tried to print with 'print as bitmap' enabled but i don't think i'm gonna use that because the way it render text is not really good : text is becoming bolder etc For me its crap. I could use it onl for the chats but i think there is not point in doing that : i print the charts using bitmap then use the profil created with the charts without this option, it will give false result i think !

                                           

                                          So if i understand what you say, my Indesign CS4 would (still) involve my monitor profil to print my document ? I don't understand how i can fix this ? Actually i use an Eizo monitor calibrated with an Eye-one 2 so the profil must be ok but still i don't want this profil to be involved in the printing process !

                                           

                                          I think i'm lost now. Hey Adobe, are you listening ?

                                          • 19. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                            Was DYP Level 3

                                            I heard about something like this but i thought it was a bug related to CS3. And i'm using CS4. Don't you think it's even possible that Adobe never fxied such an important problem ??

                                             

                                            This happens in both CS3 and CS4. I would not say that it is necessarily an Adobe bug, seems more like an Apple bug to me.

                                             

                                            By the way, i tried to print with 'print as bitmap' enabled but i don't think i'm gonna use that because the way it render text is not really good : text is becoming bolder etc For me its crap. I could use it onl for the chats but i think there is not point in doing that : i print the charts using bitmap then use the profil created with the charts without this option, it will give false result i think !

                                            I understand, but that is the way that IDCS2 and earlier printed. At least that is what we are being told.

                                             

                                            What printer are you using that text is becoming bolder? I have not seen that when testing "Print as Bitmap" with the Canon drivers. That is probably another bug related to Apple and the printer drivers.

                                             

                                            So if i understand what you say, my Indesign CS4 would (still) involve my monitor profil to print my document ? I don't understand how i can fix this ? Actually i use an Eizo monitor calibrated with an Eye-one 2 so the profil must be ok but still i don't want this profil to be involved in the printing process !

                                             

                                            I had to use this option before Leopard and the "Fast Graphic Process" option in the Canon drivers. It is certainly a workable option, but that profile will be specific for that computer/monitor and ID only? I did not have a real problem when I had to do this and one would be hard pressed to see a difference with the ID print done this way compared with a print from PS using the PS chart generated profile.

                                            • 20. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                              alexgodlex Level 1

                                              Well, when i print as bitmap the max number is 600dpi, wich is not egough to get clear vectors, would need to be 2400dpi !

                                              So the outpouts will never be crisp ! Can work if there no text or vector… but really, this option won't do the job for me.

                                               

                                              I think i will have to create a PDF for each time i need to print.

                                              • 21. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                Was DYP Level 3

                                                alexgodlex wrote:

                                                 

                                                Well, when i print as bitmap the max number is 600dpi, wich is not egough to get clear vectors, would need to be 2400dpi !

                                                So the outpouts will never be crisp ! Can work if there no text or vector… but really, this option won't do the job for me.

                                                 

                                                I think i will have to create a PDF for each time i need to print.

                                                 

                                                So can you really see a difference in vectors between Print as Bitmap at 600dpi and without print as bitmap on an inkjet printer?

                                                 

                                                If so what inkjet printer? I would be surprised that any print driver or the OS rasters vectors for any inkjet printer at over 600dpi.

                                                 

                                                600dpi, wich is not egough to get clear vectors, would need to be 2400dpi !

                                                So the outpouts will never be crisp

                                                If this is the case you probably need a RIP.

                                                • 22. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                  alexgodlex Level 1

                                                  Well i can see clearly see the different on my print.

                                                   

                                                  If you take offset printing, they say your images needs to be 300dpi, ok, but if you raster your text at 300dpi the result is uggly. I think vector don't print the same way as bitmap, can't explain why but the result is here, clearly visible. I think todays inket can print far more sharper than 600dpi, don't you think ?

                                                  • 23. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                    alexgodlex Level 1

                                                    Its becoming a madness !

                                                     

                                                    Let's try to be clear. I'm printing a charts that is a TIFF file with no profil.

                                                     

                                                    1) I have printed it in Photoshop with no CMS in the app and in the printer. Let's call the color result : A.

                                                    2) I have printed it with Indesign with no CMS in the app and in the printer. The color result is different let's called it : B.

                                                    3) i have printed it with Indesign with no CMS etc. BUT with bitmap turned on. The color result is the same as A. (cool)

                                                     

                                                    So for now everything seems logical to me, colors are consistent thru app but with indesign because of the bug. Bug is fixed using Bitmaps.

                                                    So now i need to make a PDF that looks the same as printed as Photoshop because its clear its how i'm gonna print Indesign document.

                                                     

                                                    4) I export a PDF in Indesign, i turn profil off in the settings to not include any profils in the file.

                                                    Then, in Acrobat Pro, in the printing settings : it ask wich profil i want to use and here i choose 'As source : without color managment' (i'm translating here, could be slighty different in english). Here i have the possibility to print as Bitmap but it's cleary not i'm tryin to do. For the printer driver i do the same i usual. BUT, STRANGLY : the printed result clearly looks like B and not the A i was expecting !

                                                     

                                                    It's clearly a big problem to me, cannot use the chart like this. To me it means the printing problem in indesign has been embeded in the PDF ?!

                                                    I thought i was seeing the end of that madness but i clearly lost again.

                                                     

                                                    Thanks for your help, btw.

                                                    • 24. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                      Was DYP Level 3

                                                      If you take offset printing, they say your images needs to be 300dpi, ok, but if you raster your text at 300dpi the result is uggly. I think vector don't print the same way as bitmap, can't explain why but the result is here, clearly visible. I think todays inket can print far more sharper than 600dpi, don't you think ?

                                                       

                                                      In offset printing you talking about burning plates with a RIP generated raster at 2400dpi to 3600dpi. Not really anything near what an inkjet is doing.

                                                       

                                                      The question with todays inkjet is what dpi is the printer driver or OS rastering at when it sends a job to the printer. Again what printer?

                                                      • 25. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                        alexgodlex Level 1

                                                        I'm using an HP B8850.

                                                         

                                                        I agree thats totally different techniques of printing, i just say i think its better not to rasterize file before priniting, and from now it seems true as vectors are cleary way better when i don't rasterise the file.

                                                        • 26. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                          Was DYP Level 3

                                                          So for now everything seems logical to me, colors are consistent thru app but with indesign because of the bug. Bug is fixed using Bitmaps.

                                                          After see what Canon has done with "Fast Graphic Process" I am more inclined to call the an Apple bug. One needs to test what other apps hand off rasterizing to the OS/driver to see for sure.

                                                           

                                                          4) I export a PDF in Indesign, i turn profil off in the settings to not include any profils in the file.

                                                          Then, in Acrobat Pro, in the printing settings : it ask wich profil i want to use and here i choose 'As source : without color managment' (i'm translating here, could be slighty different in english). Here i have the possibility to print as Bitmap but it's cleary not i'm tryin to do. For the printer driver i do the same i usual. BUT, STRANGLY : the printed result clearly looks like B and not the A i was expecting !

                                                           

                                                          It's clearly a big problem to me, cannot use the chart like this. To me it means the printing problem in indesign has been embeded in the PDF ?!

                                                          I have never been able to get properly color managed to RGB inkjet prints from Acrobat. CMYK no problem. Because I have all the other options working ok for me I have never done extensive testing of RGB printing from Acrobat.

                                                           

                                                          Have you tried exporting a PDF from ID with converting to the PS paper/printer profile. Then open that pdf in preview and then print turning off all CM in the driver.

                                                          • 27. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                            alexgodlex Level 1

                                                            Can you tell me what to do to be able to print this file in Acrobat pro with the right colors ?

                                                            • 28. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                              Was DYP Level 3

                                                              alexgodlex wrote:

                                                               

                                                              I'm using an HP B8850.

                                                               

                                                              I agree thats totally different techniques of printing, i just say i think its better not to rasterize file before priniting, and from now it seems true as vectors are cleary way better when i don't rasterise the file.

                                                               

                                                              The file gets rasterized somewhere other than the printer (unless it is a Postscript Printer). The question is, at what resolution is the being done at in the printer driver/OS combo.

                                                              • 29. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                alexgodlex Level 1

                                                                Well to me there is no question here : it does't print correctly i don't need to understand why unless i'm the guy coding the driver for HP…

                                                                 

                                                                If printing bitmap doesn't give good result, the question is : how can i use Acrobat Pro to print my chart with no color managment ?

                                                                • 30. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                  alexgodlex Level 1

                                                                  I have never been able to get properly color managed to RGB inkjet prints from Acrobat. CMYK no problem. Because I have all the other options working ok for me I have never done extensive testing of RGB printing from Acrobat.

                                                                   

                                                                  Have you tried exporting a PDF from ID with converting to the PS paper/printer profile. Then open that pdf in preview and then print turning off all CM in the driver.

                                                                   

                                                                  Sorry i've missed your reply.

                                                                  It seems you are right : after tryin different settings in Acrobat Pro, i had the idea to print is from Preview (wich is not using profiles for printing as far as i know).

                                                                   

                                                                  And again the colors are correct !

                                                                   

                                                                  Crazy.

                                                                   

                                                                  So it seems like the color managment in Acrobat is noin the job right. Is this again a bug on the Mac ?

                                                                  I can't beleive there so huge gaps in the whole CMS from Adobe and no one seems to care… !

                                                                   

                                                                  So i can print that chart from Preview correctly but is there any interest ?

                                                                  When i will print 'for real' with the printer profile i will need to use an app that handle profile like Acrobat Pro but doesn't seem to handle RGB files correctly or use Indesign beeing stuck with bitmap outputs that doesn't give good result ??

                                                                   

                                                                  I'm starting to become very pissed off. You mean i've a serious printer, a good computer, a Creative Suite, an Eizo, a EyeOne etc etc. Such a bunch of money and i just can't print something correct ? Are you kidding ? (well not you but…)

                                                                  • 31. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                    Was DYP Level 3

                                                                    Since this whole mess has been going on since the release of CS3 it will probably be a cold day in he!! before Adobe and Apple get together and address this.

                                                                     

                                                                    Looks to me like your only choices are:

                                                                     

                                                                    1. Get HP to write a driver that bypasses the Apple print process like the Canon iPF drivers do. More likely that Adobe and Apple fixing it.

                                                                     

                                                                    2. Get a Canon iPF printer and use "Fast Graphic Process" to bypass Apple's print process.

                                                                     

                                                                    3. Get a RIP.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                      alexgodlex Level 1

                                                                      Do a RIP would really fix this ?

                                                                       

                                                                      It can print RGB too ?

                                                                       

                                                                      I regret not have choose the HP B9180, cause there is no RIP for my printer !

                                                                       

                                                                      What Canon would you choose ?

                                                                      • 33. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                        alexgodlex Level 1

                                                                        Wow, Canon iPF that sounds a bunch of money !

                                                                         

                                                                        And what about printing CMYK PDF ?

                                                                        • 34. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                          alexgodlex Level 1

                                                                          Another idea : if the color are wrong but constant : is it possible to make a profil using this printed chart : it would correct the wrong colors ?!

                                                                           

                                                                          I don't know the process involved in this wrong color thing : the screen's profil is used in the printing process ? So if you don't change your screen profil and use the same settings with this new profile, could the color could be right in the end ?

                                                                           

                                                                          Maybe i'm not clear enough… tell me.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                            Was DYP Level 3

                                                                            Yes that is possible. That is the way I did it before Leopard and 

                                                                            Canon drivers with Fast Graphic Process.

                                                                            • 36. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                              Was DYP Level 3

                                                                              alexgodlex wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              Do a RIP would really fix this ?

                                                                               

                                                                              It can print RGB too ?

                                                                               

                                                                              I regret not have choose the HP B9180, cause there is no RIP for my printer !

                                                                               

                                                                              What Canon would you choose ?

                                                                              I called Canon to see if they have a list. Tech support (they are wonderful by the way) is going to try to get a list for me.

                                                                               

                                                                              But you could download some drivers and install them and see if they have the Fast Graphic Process option. I would do this on a test partition though.

                                                                              • 37. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                                alexgodlex Level 1

                                                                                i'm afraid i will never found the money to get an ipf canon + rip

                                                                                 

                                                                                sounds a bit oo much for a freelance graphic designer :/

                                                                                • 38. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                                  Printer_Rick Level 4

                                                                                  I stumbled on this old thread, a great discussion that ended somewhat abruptly. I'm curious if the problem is resolved. There was a similar problem in the InDesign forum just yesterday.

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Indesign RGB printing
                                                                                    Was DYP Level 3

                                                                                    Printer_Rick wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I stumbled on this old thread, a great discussion that ended somewhat abruptly. I'm curious if the problem is resolved. There was a similar problem in the InDesign forum just yesterday.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    AFAIK, NO this problem has not been resolved as of 10.5.7 and ID 6.0.3. I have not tested 10.5.8 yet but I would really be surprised if it was fixed. Since this has gone on so long I would even be surprised to find it fixed in 10.6.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    But the workarounds described before are manageable.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    And I never did get a list from Canon on what drivers have the option of Fast Graphic Process.

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