13 Replies Latest reply on Jul 23, 2008 1:19 PM by GagnonEric

    Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).

    GagnonEric Level 1

      (I post in scripting because it's how i use it, but maybe the symptôms are the same when using this feature via the ui).

      I already had problem with this feature in another project (i had to implement a pdf export and photoshop conversion (READ LOT'S OF TIME TO PROCESS!) instead of this).

      I wanted to use it again recently to implement a automated image based detection change so as to limit the time user have to pass validating the documents that need to be regenerated, the idea being that if you export image a at process 1, image b of process 2 should be equal if nothing has changed.

      I also use it in any batch where i want to be fully sure that what i have done to the document havent broke anything visually.

      So, i export image a (before the process), image b (after the process) and do a image process (inverse ink). If it's fully white, there is no change and there is spots, that it place where things have changed.

      With my application, i can overlap the two images and toggle them to see very easilly what the change is.

      Back to the export as jpeg.

      I have the problem where the export as jpeg on the same document, with the exact same jpg export properties doesnt give the same result. The images are rendered with a very subtle diffence or even line missing (i even have case where a full square of data is missing.. just as Indesing would export a graphic buffer while it's refreshing it???)..

      I have found this thread and other users have clearly the same problem:
      http://www.opensourcephoto.net/forum/index.php?s=6f3c9f867269966f3a4a1821042d7be3&showtop ic=11157&pid=280860&st=0&#entry280860

      This feature should be corrected even if it's unable to manage the full resolution image. Just to generate a fast preview of the document pages (to manage in a CMS by exemple), it's invaluable.. but it would have to be more consistent and reliable.

      Maybe someone have encoutered the same problem and have found a way through it?? (I remember with Quark a case where i had to change the document zooming, use a timer so that the overflow calculation where fully done before i process the document.. maybe it's a similar problem???).

        • 1. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
          Level 1
          maybe try to export as PDF and rasterize in Photoshop ?


          • 2. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
            GagnonEric Level 1
            I said in my post that it's something that i have done on another project (pdf export and process in photoshop). It definitively works and it's obviously the most flexible option, but the processing cost is not negligeable. It makes quite unpractical for the scenario i'm working with.

            Export as jpeg would be a good fit (if it would work appropriately).

            • 3. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
              Level 1
              sorry - but I don't understand "but the processing cost is not negligeable" - I can't find any sensible translation or description of word "negligeable" ;)

              do you mean - cost to much ? if yes - export, conversion and comparison could be fully automated


              • 4. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                GagnonEric Level 1
                Sorry, my main language is french... i'm not very good at explaining my technical tought in english! :)

                I wanted to say that the time it take to process (automaticaly, not manually) when doing the export to pdf from Indesing + rasterize pdf to jpeg in Photoshop) take a lot of time (ie. processing (time) cost is high!).

                If you have a process that run on local user workstation that take 4 hours, that means he can have it running in AM, PM and then just before leaving work to have the result on the next day, so for me there is a cost (in risk) there too. A automated validation tool for me should be there to reduce the risk.. not making it higher (by reducing the flexibily toward delivery time/date).

                By exemple, for my previous project, the base batch using export as jpg was taking around 30-45 minutes while the "pdf2jpg" process was taking 2 or 3 hours. I was ready to pay the "time" cost as i needed full quality, color-managed images, but when i just need a quick preview.. that makes no sense!

                It was automated, but what i was trying to say it that it was not very practical in a scenario where you want the user to be able to have a quicker feedback on what they are doing.

                A obvious possibility would be to split the job accross machine, but that is definitively another subject!
                • 5. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                  Level 1
                  I found that this si french word ;) but no sensible translation ;)
                  even 72 DPI PDF is still to slow ?
                  and why you want to "compare" images "before" and "after" ?
                  maybe there is another way ...


                  • 6. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                    Dirk Becker  Level 4
                    Robin, just mix "neglect" and "able" and you get close ;)
                    • 7. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                      GagnonEric Level 1
                      I'll try to remember the translation also! It's not neglectable to have a chance to improve my english! ;)

                      "why you want to "compare" images "before" and "after" ?
                      maybe there is another way ..."

                      Again, because i'm lost in the translation, it's a bit hard for me to explain it very simply. It's just a idea i came up with while trying to find a simple way to detect change in complex document(in the context of a automated publishing system) without having to use the the document object model(wich make this idea application dependant anyway).

                      I'm pretty sure that if i would show you a "use case" and the prototype, it would make sense to you.
                      • 8. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                        Level 1
                        hi Eric,

                        what you want to check - text or image changes ?

                        if text - this could be done in few ways ;) for example - storing something like checksum for each TextFrame/Story
                        if images - by comparing file date - I hope you don't want to compare pixels on image ? ;)

                        if you want - contact me on priv - send me your example INDD file(s)


                        • 9. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                          GagnonEric Level 1
                          "I hope you don't want to compare pixels on image"

                          I definitively want to do that! (and that's how i found the problem with jpeg export and even bad color profile management i had in my previous project).

                          A counter exemple i could give (i know how to work with text and file date) is when file modification has no effect at the pixel level (ex. the user has just changed metadata and saved the file) and when your text has the wrong color (white on white paper when it should be black by exemple). In the first case, you get a notification of change that is not significant while in the other you pass over a change because you didnt handled the case (it could be color, it could be that another image is over your text frame, etc., etc.).

                          The idea of a fast image level comparison is not to replace the other way to validate the document with the DOM(text, date, geometry, etc.), but to complement it...

                          If i can post a "real" exemple later on, i'll do it. It will make more sense.
                          • 10. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                            Level 1
                            ok ;) I understand your "problem" ;)

                            I still think that "PDF way" isn't so bad idea ;)
                            I have tool to Export whole INDD document as separate PDF pages
                            I have also tool - WatchDog - which monitor selected folder(s) for new files (it require extra computer with InDesign installed), open new files and prepare info for Manager (which could be run from any computer in network - even without InDesign installed) - it give you option to select which pages should be exported as PDFs
                            each monitored folders have PDF_export_preset and destination_folder assigned

                            I can modify my tools to open PDFs in Photoshop, rasterize it and check for differencies

                            and one more thing ... my tools work only on Windows OS ...


                            • 11. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                              GagnonEric Level 1
                              "I can modify my tools to open PDFs in Photoshop, rasterize it and check for differencies"

                              I dont want to come off as rude or missinterpret your intentions, but you are offering me your services, right?

                              Just to make things clear:

                              I know how to automate pdf export with profile, how to rasterize in photoshop and output to any format and i already have a working prototype for the image analysis tool. My target environnement is Mac but i know how to develop for PC or under the constraint of a multiplaform environnement.

                              I'm really sorry if my post gave the impression that i was looking someone to do the work for me (free or not).

                              My main post was on the fact that Indesign JPEG export has some bugs and that it would be quite helpfull in some scenario to have it working.. i maybe have posted about this at the wrong place?

                              I still appreciate you opinion (that i should check again for implementing the idea using low-res pdf export), otherwise for me it was just sharing a idea that i think could be of interest to other Indesign workflow developper...
                              • 12. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                                Level 1
                                sorry Eric - I should read whole thread again before I send my last answer :(

                                my other idea for you - maybe PrintScreen from InDesign window will be better solution than exporting to JPG ?
                                I thought about that to make tool to find transparency flattening problems ...


                                • 13. Re: Export as JPEG (UNRELIABLE!).
                                  GagnonEric Level 1
                                  No problem.

                                  Yes, i tought about this one but i havent had time to give it a try. There should be a few more things to handle if i would take this approach:
                                  - On OSX (not much control on the quality of the snapshot. It's PNG or PDF, not sure wich compressor is used (lossless by ex.)).
                                  - bit depth set on the computer.
                                  - size of the document window.
                                  - artifacts caused by snapshot taken in the middle of a refresh (ex. if there is a resizing of the window, maybe there should be a delay before taking the snapshot to let Indesign redraw the window).