14 Replies Latest reply on Nov 15, 2008 3:22 PM by (PC_Pete)

    Bring back the dead (features) please

    Level 1
      I'm currently working on a large (>10G) studio recording for a cultural restoration, and I'm being driven to distraction by a couple of things that have been mentioned in passing in other forums/user areas. Because it's such an important piece of audio material, I have to work entirely manually, and the one repetitive task that I'm doing (800 so far today, and about 7,000 or so more) is the one feature that's missing from AA2/3.

      These are small glitches in an otherwise great package (I'm not ******** about Adobe, I promise!), and they're so easily fixable even I could do it.

      But just to put in black and white what I miss most from previous versions, and what I'd really like to see offered pr considered in future iterations:

      1) I need to be able to play preroll/selection/to end of file. Since the "Play from selection to EOF" has been taken out from AA2 onwards, I'm spending (wasting!) an enormous amount of time editing tiny transients, then scrolling back 1-3 seconds, then clicking to place the cursor, then pressing play to verify the repair and continue on to the next transient. Since my display window width is typically 1.1 - 3 seconds, and I work mainly in spectral view, this is extremely time-consuming and truly, truly annoying. Do this 500 times on a single recording, for 10-15 recordings per week, and it actually subtracts
      i hours
      from the work week!
      Not everyone will use this, but some of us relied on this time-saving and practical feature and really miss it; and yes, it would probably need to be a configuration option, not just an extra context menu setting to confuse other users.

      2) Please, please, please fix the gui so the Adobe window controls library doesn't keep trashing everyone else's windows. Initially this seemed to be caused by a Microsoft mouse driver problem, but I've now tried a number of alternatives, and none of them work when Audition is running.

      The workaround is to minimise Audition instead of working over the top, but that's not a fix, that's a workaround. I know everyone loves the pretty dimple controls and cute tabs and little x's, but they're non-standard, and they don't even work within Audition without snarfing normal windows controls up. (Try opening a save dialog when the underlying Audition toolbar suddenly paints itself over the dropdown controls. Or worse, when I'm about to drop an object in an unrelated application, Audition suddenly hiccups and paints over the other application's device context!)
      This isn't a mouse driver compatibility issue, it's a bug in the implementation of the window controls library (MSVCL/MSVCR?) used by Adobe -
      i all
      Adobe products suffer from it, and
      i only
      Adobe products suffer from it, although they affect any other application using the same library. This is a bug in the way the Adobe applications use the library, not necessarily in the library itself. Why? Because all other applications that use the same library
      b don't
      paint over one another's contexts. So it should be fixable by Adobe, and if so, please fix it!

      3) Please look at BWF/CART chunk "usability" improvements.

      For example, it would be really useful to be able to instantly clear BWF/CART/RIFF text fields without having to manually clear them all (click, drag/ctrl-A, delete, next field) when preparing an audio file for downsampling and mastering. The RIFF text in some fields is preserved even when "Save non-audio data" is turned OFF during a save, so just saving without extra data isn't a practical workaround. And yes, that did happen in the few days I was able to test AA3, but I can't confirm it because AA3 won't allow me to finish trialing it.

      On the same subject, some other small "usability" fixes to the metadata field tab order and the ability to preset reasonable defaults in some fields (for example, adding the current file length to the start cue to provide an accurate EOD cue instead of 2099-mm-dd would be a nice addition) would be much appreciated.

      Th
        • 1. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
          Level 1
          Those three minor enhancements would truly make my work easier and a bit more pleasant. I use Audition for 8-10 hours a day, every day, so I really do notice these missing bits. If the BWF date automation thing is just my understanding of the intended use of the field, I apologise.

          On a side note, it would be a pretty cool idea if we could look at any suggestions or improvements Adobe are considering for investigation, instead of just ******** on the forum and sending the "feature request" forms into the Adobe Black Hole. (BTW, many thanks to OzPeter for putting up the link to that form, that's really nice to have!) If we know someone's raised a particular issue, and that Adobe are "looking into" the issue, we're much less likely to ***** and moan and duplicate requests. I realise this part of the forum is supposed to help with that, but just asking about a feature request and being told that "someone who may or may not be from Adobe may or may not read the feature requests and may or may not raise the feature request at any given meeting that may or may not occur in Adobe's development department at some time in the future" is a bit... unsatisfying.

          That's it for now.
          • 2. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
            SteveG(AudioMasters) Level 6
            >Since the "Play from selection to EOF" has been taken out from AA2 onwards...

            Well, I don't understand this one at all, because nothing's been removed. There never has been a selection to EOF option - it's always been cursor to EOF, and it's still there. All that has happened is that the play options have been expanded, not replaced. In 1.5, there were the first four options on the list, and in 2.0 they were added to.

            As far as I'm concerned, what you want to do exists right now and works fine. Right-click on the play button, select 'play preroll, postroll and selection, and you can play through your edit perfectly - and in the options, set up just as much pre and postroll as you want. So if you use, say, the healing brush, then the extent of this becomes the 'selection', and you hear either side of it, and that's all. Is this what you want to be able to do?

            Unfortunately (perhaps...), Adobe never, ever, discuss future plans for what to include with anybody. No, not even the beta testers. It's hard enough trying to get features altered so that they work sensibly, never mind trying to get new ones added. What happens is that Adobe looks at what is written in features forums (there are two sensible ones, here and at AudioMasters), and picks what they want out of them. And very occasionally David Johnson comes up with something totally amazing, usually a bit left-field, that nobody would have thought of in 1000 years, and that gets added too - probably because he's written all the code for it! And if there's anything in the aforementioned feature lists that coincides with what they want to do - well, that's a bonus, isn't it?

            I don't mind this approach, because Audition does pretty much what I want it to do anyway - especially now that the crossfades have got sorted out - and hey, you get the occasional surprise. But in principle I agree with your plea for not removing existing features, or altering them out of all recognition; somebody somewhere was probably using them, and it will hack them off somewhat. There are three that come to my mind specifically here, but there may well be others as well. If it's any cause for hope I don't know, but one of them has been put back; the play list option.
            • 3. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
              Level 1
              Steve, unfortunately, the preroll and postroll don't work that way.

              Pre and postroll are limited to 30 seconds max. (I think it's always been that way). But it's kinda useless if the transients are more than 30 seconds apart - which means it's kinda useless to me, full stop.

              What you're suggesting obviously works for some people, which is great. But what I need to do is play preroll, selection, and don't stop until I tell you to. Remember, I'm doing tiny edits dozens or hundreds of times per minute of recording - so any arbitrary limitation on postroll hurts.

              The issue is that
              i non
              -pre/postroll options only work from the cursor to EOF or EOV, and only if there is no selection.

              If a selection is highlighted, the playback starts at the "implied" cursor start position at the start of the highlight, and stops at the selection boundaries. Typically that's about 30 mS or less.

              I can select, fix, play pre/selection/post, but then I have to hope that the next transient occurs within 30 seconds.

              There ain't no way in hell I can just make a selection, do the edit, and play from the start of the selection to EOF in AA2 and later. Nor can I define an infinite postroll (which would be an acceptable workaround!).

              I realise I'm not a typical user of Audition.

              In AA1.5 and all earlier products that I'm currently able to verify, the transport controls - by default! - allow playback from start of selection to EOF as part of the playback mechanism, and that functionality was crucial. That's why I feel the loss every time I edit a transient, every transient, on every track, on every album.

              If it was a single transient edit once every few minutes, or once per track, that wouldn't be a problem, and your recommendation would work beautifully.

              I know Adobe can't afford to give away secrets, and seeing the latest Adobe forum activity recently has been great to see. I still reckon a feature request database (a lá SourceForge) would be a terriffic opportunity to not only see what customers are asking for, but how many of 'em are asking. Right now, that's zero.

              I'm pleased as punch at some of the latest features in 3.0, and I hope they keep fixing stuff.
              • 4. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                SteveG(AudioMasters) Level 6
                >The issue is that non -pre/postroll options only work from the cursor to EOF or EOV, and only if there is no selection

                Okay, got it. I think that's a bug - it clearly doesn't do what it says (or at least implies) that it should.
                • 5. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                  Level 1
                  Yeah, it's not actually stated anywhere that I can see, so I have to assume (!) that it's implied.

                  I've raised this formally through the bug form. Fingers crossed for AA3.1! ;)
                  • 6. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                    Level 1
                    It did it again! Audition 2.0 bloody well pasted bits of its damn gui all over my desktop again, for the umpteenth (actually, 75th) time today. I'll never get the stains out. :)

                    Seriously, this gui rendering/drawing/painting code has GOT to be fixed in the next version of Audition. This is driving me spare - not only do I get audition's tooltips floating up like... well... little floaty yellow tool-tippy things... all over my mail client, accounting software, graphics editor, and other sundry windows every time audition feels it needs to refresh itself, but it's painting its damn toolbars on top of anything that uses a TTooolBar object (or whatever they call the toolbar/coolbar in C++ land).

                    But this time, I've got the screenshots to prove I'm not going slowly mad. I'm going to raise this as a formal bug notification (even though I can't use AA3, it did the same thing the same way while I was permitted to test it, so what's good for the goose...).

                    Much as I love AA, and I really do love it, it's getting to be like an aged relative that farts and dribbles all over the place and everyone pretends it's not happening. I think they call that "the elephant in the room" or something?

                    After just spending 3 hours reinstalling the very latest ATI 64-bit graphics drivers (they hadn't finished coding while I was downloading, they're that good) and enduring a whole month's worth of system reboots, I'm *fairly* certain it's not the drivers, nor all the other programs that don't paint bits of themselves over my nice clean 64-bit desktop. Still, I live to be proven wrong (and I sincerely hope I am).
                    • 7. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                      Richard FDisk
                      quote;
                      Well, I don't understand this one at all, because nothing's been removed. There never has been a selection to EOF option - it's always been cursor to EOF, and it's still there. All that has happened is that the play options have been expanded, not replaced. In 1.5, there were the first four options on the list, and in 2.0 they were added to.
                      end quote
                      _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

                      play "selection to end of file" or end of view
                      was available in AA1.0 and in Cool Edit 2000 / CEpro
                      I regularly use AA 1.0 & when I press the space bar to play from the beginning of a selection it plays right on past the end of the selection and keeps right on going until the end of the file or I press the space bar again or the stop button on the transport panel

                      in AA2.0 (can't speak for 1.5 because I never had it) only the selection is played or the setting of the pre- post- and selection or skip selection but never more.

                      truly a pestering thing.

                      I use AA2.0 on my home machine because it was the current version when I had the machine built,

                      and I'd have to agree about the transport problem & the tooltip thing which just reappears for no reason in AA2.0
                      I've got screen shots of the tootip saying "hard limiting" in the middle of the window and if you click on it the computer crashes

                      ouch!
                      • 8. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                        SuiteSpot Level 4
                        I'm curious. Having used AA1.5, 2.0 and now 3.0 I have never experienced the device context problem ie AA either drawing over itself or any other app's DC.

                        Logic tells me that if it is an AA problem, software being what it is, everybody should have this problem all the time?

                        At the risk of incurring some unwanted wrath is it possible that this is a problem relating to specific graphics hardware?
                        • 9. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                          Level 1
                          No wrath, Runaway - you're right, it is (or it seems to be) a problem affecting a certain subset of video controllers (primarily ATI), but is also affected by some drivers using or sharing the same UI library - in most cases, Microsoft Intellipoint drivers seem to trigger the behaviour, and the effect can (usually) be minimised by simply reverting to an earlier version of the mouse drivers. If the mouse driver isn't triggering the problem, then sometimes a special ATI software patch that modifies the CPU timestamping on queued instructions seems to work.

                          Either way, ATI says it's not a problem with their hardware or software, since only Adobe Audition 2 and 3 seem to cause the behaviour (out of countless software titles that don't), and Microsoft says it's not a problem with their drivers, since only users of Adobe Audition 2 and 3 seem to see this problem. And Adobe don't give a rat's whatsit because I'm running on XP x64, and therefore it's not their problem, and they don't believe that they should figure out a fix when the workarounds that all other users experiencing the problems have "worked" - not even when the bugs I experience are identical in every way, down to the pixel, to those experienced by other users of AA on 32-bit XP that do seem to be fixed by removing or downgrading unrelated software (that I'm not actually running) or by applying patches that have no effect on x64.

                          Actually, 'wrath' isn't exactly the right term here - it's actually disgust in a more refined form.
                          • 10. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                            The designers know there is a problem with the UI in version 2.0. It's not with Audition, but with every piece of software that uses the UI.

                            In my experience it acts up on many video cards, not just ATI.

                            The two complaints I've heard the most is the redraw issue where sometimes it paints over things, and sometimes it doesn't redraw entire areas at all... And the spastic blinking desktop syndrome, where the icons on the desktop and other windows blink during use of Audition... and yes this is a UI problem, a code problem if you will. Not a driver/hardware problem. I've seen those problems personally on at least 17 different systems.

                            The encouraging news is that 3.0 seems so far to have less problems with both... but they are still there.
                            • 11. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                              Ozpeter Level 1
                              I've read on another forum that Intellimouse drivers affect another audio product - likewise Logitech's, where the scroll wheel driver has unpredictable effects. For that product I put together a little utility which disables the Logitech driver, runs the program, then re-enables the Logitech stuff when the program exits.
                              • 12. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                                Level 1
                                The mouse manufacturers sure have a lot to learn about how to identify and send mouse wheel messages to non-standard apps like AA3!

                                Unfortunately, the flipside is that Adobe needs to bring their UI into the 21st century as well. "When in doubt, repaint" seems to be the AA UI motto, and since AA uses so many unique components (and owner-draw components at that!), that takes a frack of a long time to complete on any real-world computer system. Longer, if you're stupid enough (like me) to try running AA3 on a multi-CPU (but non-Intel) system.

                                The record for an AA3 save-file-and-repaint-GUI operation on this system is 11 minutes and a few seconds spare. I don't know if that would be cut down to 3 minutes if AA could use more than one CPU core, but I suspect not. The load seems to be on the graphics engine. PCI-E x4 doesn't cut it for 1,000+ simultaneous owner-draw UI control repaints. And not even painting over the top of other on-top windows makes that any faster.

                                It would be interesting (from a philosophical, if not a technical, point of view) to see what actually causes, and what eventually fixes, these stupid UI problems, but that's not my doom, I know. I'm stupid enough to use an unsupported Windows XP operating system on non-optimised CPUs and a 12-month-old video device and third-party trackball using windows XP drivers. So I'm not even in the race!

                                I just twiddle my thumbs every time AA freaks out and draws all over my desktop, or locks up the entire server every time a repaint frenzy breaks out in some Audition panel somewhere.
                                • 13. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                                  Hello people

                                  Play to EOF / EOV

                                  I've just upgraded to AA3 after using CoolPro 1 for ten years. Imagine my disgust on AA3 insisting on playing & scrolling past the selected (zoomed) part of a file. I do a lot of audio restoration work & need this feature badly when repairing tricky transients.

                                  Until I discovered the RightClick option on the Tranport Controls - here you can select what you need.
                                  Also, if you click on the >>fourth transport button<< it will play from the cursor only to the end of the selected view - so one can happily fix / undo / replay / redo endlessly.
                                  No features were removed then it seems, they were only renamed / better hidden than before.

                                  Hope this helps
                                  Enjoy Everything
                                  HB
                                  • 14. Re: Bring back the dead (features) please
                                    Level 1
                                    Heinrich, sadly the option to play from the start of the selection to the end of the file was actually taken out of AA3.

                                    You can certainly configure all the transport buttons (it can take some time to find that little treasure chest!), but there's no option to play from the start of the
                                    i selection
                                    . Remember, the
                                    b selection
                                    is a different thing entirely to the
                                    b view
                                    , which can be zoomed to the selection or display a completely different part of the file.

                                    If you higlight a part of the current view, then press play or use any combination of transport options, it will only play the selection and no further. You have to clear the selection highlight (usually by clicking somewhere to the left of the selection) and then you can play to end of view/end of file, whichever you prefer. That's the bit the developers decided we could do without.

                                    Cheers,
                                    Pete