1 2 Previous Next 76 Replies Latest reply on Jul 20, 2010 4:55 PM by Grumelda1

    Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade

    Level 1
      I recently upgraded to CS4 and have been experiencing the following problem. When I open an image from ACR to PS CS4 it looks absolutely nothing like it did in ACR. If I was to describe it, it would be that the image has an overall red tint when viewed in CS4. If I then save this image as a PSD file, and then open it in PS CS3 it matches the CS4 ACR image. So, what have I got set wrong in PS CS4 (which is still all of the default settings)?
        • 1. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
          Thomas Knoll Level 2
          The default camera profile changed to "Adobe Standard" with Camera Raw 5.2. If you don't like it, change the default back.
          • 2. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
            Level 1
            Thanks for the response I did change the default camera profile as you suggested (changed to ACR4.6). The image does show a subtle change in ACR, but still a huge change when its opened. Perhaps a better way to explain my problem is this. When I open an image with CS3 PS it looks great. The same image opened in CS4 PS looks dark and red. I have two monitors, and have only calibrated the LACIE - where does a given version of photoshop pick up the monitor ICC profile, and could it be that the two different versions of photoshop are utilizing a different ICC profile?
            • 3. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
              Dennis 1111 Level 2
              It is most likely NOT a monitor profile problem since any monitor profile should be in effect for CS3, CS4, and ACR.

              What IS likely the problem is a mis-match in working color space. You probably have a different working colorspace set in CS4 as compared to CS3 or you have the other color settings set in such as way so that CS3 automatically adapts and CS4 doesn't.

              Here is what you need to check:
              You need to check Edit>Color Settings... in both CS3 and CS4. If you want them to behave the same, they should be set the same. Your working colorspace is a matter of preference. The most common are sRGB, AdobeRGB, and ProPhoto. If you have no idea what I am talking about and most of your images are either displayed online, sent via email to friends and family, or printed at the local drugstore then sRGB is probably a good choice. As you have time to learn about colorspace, you can try others.

              I usually use "Preserve Embedded Profiles" for the Profiles section of the color settings and I put the checkmarks in all the "Ask When" options of the Color Settings. That way, PS always reminds me if there is a mis-match coming into PS.

              Now you need to check which colorspace ACR is using when it does its raw development. If you look under the image in the ACR editing window, you will see a line of blue, underlined text. Click on that and you can set what colorspace will be used by ACR to develop images. Normally, you will want to make this colorspace match your working colorspace in PS but if you set up the color settings in PS as I mentioned above, you don't have to necessarily. Using the settings above, if you happen to generate an image from ACR in the ProPhoto colorspace and your PS working space is set to sRGB, PS will prompt you to make a decision. You can then decide if you want to use the colorspace embedded in the incoming image (ProPhoto)or the default working space you had previously chosen for PS (sRGB).

              If colorspace issues are new to you, they can be kind of confusing at first. You may just want to set both PS and ACR to sRGB and use that for now.
              • 4. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                Level 1
                Again thanks for the response. Both of the color spaces (CS3 and CS4) were set to sRGB - I have changed the color spaces in ACR, and PS between sRGB, Adobe RGB, and ProPhoto. I can see the differences in the images on the monitor, however even when matched, or I do have it the use imbedded profile selected, when it is opened in PS CS4 its just a huge change.
                • 5. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                  Thomas Knoll Level 2
                  What color settings do you have set in Photoshop? (If it is "Monitor Color" then that is your problem).
                  • 6. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                    Level 1
                    sRGB. As close as I can tell all of the settings (at least related to color settings) are the same in CS3 and CS4. If I have the same image opened in both versions of photoshop, and on the monitor at the same time, and there drastically different there has to be something set wrong, but I have no idea where to go from here.
                    • 7. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                      Thomas Knoll Level 2
                      I think there were some issues in the Windows version of Photoshop CS3 dealing with multiple monitors and getting the correct ICC profiles for them in all cases, which were resolved in CS4.

                      I would make sure that both of your monitors are correctly calibrated, and you don't have a bad monitor profile causing you problems.
                      • 8. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                        Level 1
                        I thought I just posted this but apparently not. I am using a Mac. I could also, and will re-calibrate both monitors. Again, if I open the same image in cs3 and then again in cs4, and display them on the monitor at the same time they are different (very different). In addition acr and cs4 are definitely set to the same color space yet opening an image from acr to cs4 on the same monitor shows a big difference. It's really very puzzling, and I've got to believe its something simple. Tomorrows another day. Thanks for your help.
                        • 9. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                          Thomas Knoll Level 2
                          Are you sure you have Photoshop's color settings set to preserve embedded profiles?
                          • 10. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                            Thomas Knoll Level 2
                            Another test you can do is save a TIFF file directly out of the Camera Raw dialog (use the Save... button). Then open this same TIFF file in both Photoshop CS3 and Photoshop CS4. If they are still different, this would eliminate Camera Raw settings from the possible problem.
                            • 11. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                              Hi-
                              I am having the same issue. Open image from ACR 5.2 and it is much darker than RAW- on the SAME color calibrated monitor
                              • 12. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                Level 1
                                Thanks for helping with this TK!!
                                • 13. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                  Level 1
                                  I did save a TIFF directly out of camera raw and opened in in CS3 and CS4- they were still significantly different. So, I started pushing buttons in CS4 . Now, if I go to Edit>Assign profile and change it from Working RGB: Adobe RGB(1998) to Profile:Color match RGB the image is very very close to the CS3 image. The same settings in CS3 is Working RGB: Adobe RGB(1998). Does this give anyone any clue to what is going on?
                                  • 14. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                    Dennis 1111 Level 2
                                    I think you have not answered Thomas' question yet. Do you have "Preserve embedded profiles" specified in the policies section of the Color Settings in both CS3 and CS4?
                                    • 15. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                      Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                      Sounds like you have the ACR output options in CS4 set to something other than your working space and you're NOT embedding the profile.
                                      • 16. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                        Level 1
                                        Both ACR and PS are set to Adobe RGB (1998). In PS4 in the Color Settings, Preserve embedded profiles are selected and have been. Like I have said this has never been an Issue with CS3. I also noticed this with the first image I worked with when all of the PS settings were in the default mode. So, does anyone know what actually happens in PS when Assign profile is changed to Color Match RGB.
                                        • 17. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                          Level 1
                                          Jack B, you mentioned you were having a similar issue - have you made any progress?
                                          • 18. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                            Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                            >So, does anyone know what actually happens in PS when Assign profile is changed to Color Match RGB

                                            Yeah, you're wrecking the colors of the image by imposing an erroneous definition in the interpretation of the tonal values.
                                            • 20. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                              Level 1
                                              After setting the ACR values and opening the image in Photoshop, the
                                              Photoshop version is noticeably darker and slightly more contrasty
                                              than the way it appeared in ACR. Both are set to Adobe RGB 1998
                                              colorspace. In order to make the ACR version look the same as the
                                              version that opened in Photoshop, I had to change the Point curve in
                                              ACR so that the quarter tone setting was roughly 70, 49 and the
                                              midpoint was also lowered accordingly. The three quarter point was
                                              left at it's original value. Of course if the image is reopened using
                                              these settings, then the PS version again looks still darker and more
                                              contrasty. I have a screen shot of the point curve I used to match up
                                              the appearances.
                                              • 21. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                Dennis 1111 Level 2
                                                Everything still sounds like a colorspace mis-match but both Ray and Jack indicate that they have checked Color Settings and they are correct. If either of you wanted to remove all doubt, it might be helpful to post a screen-shot of the CS3 and CS4 Color Settings window.

                                                Beyond that, it sounds like one of two possible problems/solutions:
                                                - Some kind of corruption that occured during instalation of CS4. If that was the case, a de-install and re-install might be called for.

                                                - Some rarer kind of problem due to your particular mix or hardware, installs, and so on. Could even be a very specific bug in PS. Probably necessary to pursue with Adobe Support in that case.
                                                • 22. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                  hignatius Level 1
                                                  I have the same problem with CS4. I'm using Lightroom 2.2 as the basic tool and Photoshop for more detailed work.

                                                  If I compare LR to CS3 on the same monitor the images look identical. However, if I run the same test on CS4 I get an image similar to what Ray Knight describes!

                                                  I have a duel monitor system. I believe the problem for me is how CS4 handles monitor profiles when I move the image from one monitor to the other. I use a laptop LCD and an external high-res 21". Both are calibrated but have significantly different profiles.

                                                  CS4 always defaults to opening the image on my laptop - my primary monitor, so the first thing I do is move it to my external monitor. However, I notice that CS4 does not recognize the monitor change and therefore uses the same profile for the laptop monitor - which results in a poor looking image. If I save it back to LR the image looks great! If I do the same thing in CS3 the image always looks great. If I drag the same image in LR and CS4 to my laptop it looks great! So I believe CS4 is not interpreting the monitor profiles correctly. CS3 and LR2.2 always seem to handle this with no problems.

                                                  Not sure this solves your issues but I now have something to call Adobe or Apple about.
                                                  • 23. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                    Level 1
                                                    Howard, this sounds identical to what I'm seeing. I also have two monitors (both calibrated), and my images in PS CS4 open up on the Apple monitor. They actually look fine there, but when I move to the monitor I use for editing (LaCie 526) I notice the change. PS CS3 opens directly to the LaCie monitor. Where does photoshop assign a primary monitor, or how can this be changed? Thanks for your response.
                                                    • 24. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                      Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                      >Where does photoshop assign a primary monitor

                                                      Photoshop does not.

                                                      >or how can this be changed?

                                                      At the OS level. For instance, on a Mac you use Display Preferences to do it.
                                                      • 25. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                        hignatius Level 1
                                                        Well I tried the ColorSnyc Utility, which allows you to select the default profile, but that did not solve the problem. Then I always go back and ask myself why CS3 and LR do it right and CS4 does not? I've been searching the web but can not find anything that helps!
                                                        • 26. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                          Howard,

                                                          NOTE: I'm posting this to clear up any misunderstanding my previous post may have inadvertently created.

                                                          I've used dual monitors for many years. I see absolutely no change when moving any image from one monitor to another in Photoshop 7.0.1 through 11 (CS4). Photoshop is smart enough to read the profile for each monitor on the fly.

                                                          Even when I place half of the image in one monitor and the other half in the other one, Photoshop uses the correct monitor for each respective half of the image.

                                                          My response to Ray's question ("Where does photoshop assign a primary monitor?") has absolutely nothing to do with monitor profiles, only with which monitor will be the primary monitor, i.e. the one that hosts the menu bar with the Apple menu.

                                                          That is what you can change in the Display Preferences > Arrangement (Mac System Preferences).

                                                          The one thing that did change in CS4 is that image files now will always open on the primary monitor. In previous versions of Photoshop, you could just move an image to the secondary monitor, close it, and it or the next image would open on your secondary monitor too. That is not possible in CS4, at least in the current version.

                                                          However, the monitor profile used on each monitor respectively remains the correct one as set in Display Preferences > Color.

                                                          Photoshop knows how to apply each monitor profile to each monitor, unless the user has messed that up in Display Preferences > Color.

                                                          In Edit > Color Settings, you should be set to the Adobe Color Engine (ACE), not to Color Sync.

                                                          In my experience, the Apple CMM, Color Sync, has been unreliable for a long time. I just avoid it. (There are other legitimate uses for the ColorSync Utility, such as repairing profiles [Profile First Aid], visualizing and comparing their gamuts, etc.)

                                                          If both monitors are accurately calibrated and profiled, and if the appropriate monitor profiles are selected for each monitor separately in Display Preferences > Color, Photoshop will use them correctly on each monitor, in my experience.

                                                          Something is going wrong in Ray's setup, but there are not enough details to tell what. Screen shots of all the settings would be helpful.

                                                          Even the cheapest calibrator puck will produce a more accurate profile than can be achieved through Apple's built-in or any other eyeball calibrator like SuperCal.
                                                          • 27. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                            hignatius Level 1
                                                            I've used dual monitors for many years. I see absolutely no change when moving any image from one monitor to another in Photoshop 7.0.1 through 11 (CS4). Photoshop is smart enough to read the profile for each monitor on the fly.

                                                            HI> Although I'm new to the Mac platform, that has been my experience also.

                                                            Even when I place half of the image in one monitor and the other half in the other one, Photoshop uses the correct monitor for each respective half of the image.

                                                            HI> I agree, for CS3 and Lightroom that is how it works for me too.

                                                            My response to Ray's question ("Where does photoshop assign a primary monitor?") has absolutely nothing to do with monitor profiles, only with which monitor will be the primary monitor, i.e. the one that hosts the menu bar with the Apple menu.

                                                            That is what you can change in the Display Preferences > Arrangement (Mac System Preferences).

                                                            HI> Correct and I agree. But I believe Ray had that setup correctly to begin with, unless I did not understand him.

                                                            The one thing that did change in CS4 is that image files now will always open on the primary monitor. In previous versions of Photoshop, you could just move an image to the secondary monitor, close it, and it or the next image would open on your secondary monitor too. That is not possible in CS4, at least in the current version.

                                                            HI> My observation as well.

                                                            However, the monitor profile used on each monitor respectively remains the correct one as set in Display Preferences > Color.

                                                            Photoshop knows how to apply each monitor profile to each monitor, unless the user has messed that up in Display Preferences > Color.

                                                            HI> As stated, CS3 and Lightroom do apply colors correctly. CS4 does not.

                                                            In Edit > Color Settings, you should be set to the Adobe Color Engine (ACE), not to Color Sync.

                                                            HI> All my observations with CS4 have used ACE. I was getting frustrated and the ColorSync thing was an experiment to see if anything changed.

                                                            In my experience, the Apple CMM, Color Sync, has been unreliable for a long time. I just avoid it. (There are other legitimate uses for the ColorSync Utility, such as repairing profiles [Profile First Aid], visualizing and comparing their gamuts, etc.)

                                                            If both monitors are accurately calibrated and profiled, and if the appropriate monitor profiles are selected for each monitor separately in Display Preferences > Color, Photoshop will use them correctly on each monitor, in my experience.

                                                            HI> CS4 does not seem to work the same way. In fact, if you bring up the images in Bridge CS4 on my setup, the filmstrip version of the image will have the proper color profile (when I move it back and forth from one monitor to the other) and the selected preview image will not! I believe this is a bug in CS4! CS4 should apply the same color profile to each image in Bridge regardless of which monitor I move the window to.

                                                            Something is going wrong in Ray's setup, but there are not enough details to tell what. Screen shots of all the settings would be helpful.

                                                            HI> I'm not sure how your monitors are setup. Perhaps you have two monitors that are nearly the same and therefore your color profiles are close enough to not see the difference that Ray and I see. My monitors are setup correctly and I believe that Ray's are too.

                                                            Even the cheapest calibrator puck will produce a more accurate profile than can be achieved through Apple's built-in or any other eyeball calibrator like SuperCal.

                                                            HI> I use Graytag McBeth. However, even if I did not use any calibration, I should see the same results in the same window for Bridge CS4, regardless of how far the profiles were off! Comparing that with CS3 and Lightroom makes me believe that this is a software bug in CS4 not a setup issue.
                                                            • 28. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                              hignatius Level 1
                                                              Ramón, I have an experiment for you that will either tell Ray and I that we have a setup problem or that CS4 has a bug. If you choose to help us, try the following:

                                                              1. Setup your primary monitor with a totally different color profile. Something that makes your images look noticeably different between your two monitors.

                                                              2. Launch Bridge CS4 in your primary and use Filmstrip mode, make the Preview panel image about the same size as the Content panel image(s).

                                                              3. Drag the Bridge window from your primary to the secondary monitor. Note that when you release the mouse button the Content images snap to the color profile on the secondary monitor. However, the Preview image does not change (in this case means it does not snap to the different profile) and is noticeably different! They should be the same!

                                                              If you see no changes, comparatively speaking, between your Content and Preview then Ray and I have something different in our setup. However, if you confirm that they are different then I believe this points to a software bug in CS4. The color difference in the Preview panel is the same that I see in Photoshop and I believe is the same that Ray is seeing as well.

                                                              Thanks in advance for helping!
                                                              • 29. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                                Howard, <br /> <br /> Your post is really difficult to read, Quotes are indistinguishable from text. <br /> <br /> Sorry, it's just not practical for me to perform your suggested experiment and, also, of dubious value the instant you introduce a bad profile. Totally irrelevant to my workflow and, besides, Bridge on my machine spans across the whole width of <b>both</b> monitors. The Preview panel is on the right, occupying the entire area of the primary monitor. It's impossible to "launch Bridge just on my primary monitor. <br /> <br />c <a href="http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1GfLN8WldUcroSADgSsVrSlwnFf0" /></a> <img alt="Picture hosted by Pixentral" src="http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1GfLN8WldUcroSADgSsVrSlwnFf0_thumb.jpg" border="0" /> <br />c Low-res, lowest quality JPEG screen shot. <br /> <br /> The colors in Bridge, however remain the same in the CONTENT panel on the right-hand side and the PREVIEW panel on the left. They're also the same when the image is opened in Photoshop, regardless of which monitor it resides in. <br /> <br /> [EDITED formatting]
                                                                • 30. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                  Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                                  Having dfferent bad profiles on each monitor you're bound to have different bad rendering of your colors on both monitors. That's why I say your suggested experiment is of dubious value.
                                                                  • 31. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                    I am having this same problem after upgrading from CS3.

                                                                    Images in Bridge look fine, but they drastically change when you open them in CS4.

                                                                    CS4 images are darker, have more contrast, and have a definite red cast to them.

                                                                    From the camera I import into LR 2.2 and convert to DNG, make my adjustments, then open in CS4 and save as PSD. CS4 converts the final images to jpeg level 10 for submission to the lab (WHCC).

                                                                    The last two sets of images from the lab went right into the trash. All were too dark, contrasty, and have bad red cast, even though I ended up making the image look okay on the monitor.

                                                                    I'm using softproofing with WHCC's ICC profile.

                                                                    I'm using Vista, single monitor, and Canon 5D.

                                                                    I have never experienced this type of color mis-match problem before.

                                                                    I'm going to re-process the images in CS3 and resubmit to WHCC and see if that corrects the problem.

                                                                    The prints are even darker, more contrasty, and redder than what is on the screen.

                                                                    There is something going on in CS4.

                                                                    Any and all help would be appreciated.

                                                                    I count on these images to come back the way they look on the monitor.

                                                                    I calibrate the monitor weekly, and use Adobe RGB 1998 as my color space.

                                                                    All settings are the same between CS3 and CS4. They just look and print differently in CS4.

                                                                    Phil
                                                                    • 32. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                      Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                                      Correcting an obvious typo in post #29:

                                                                      The Preview panel is on the right, occupying the entire area of the primary monitor.


                                                                      should read: The Preview panel is on the left , occupying the entire area of the primary monitor.
                                                                      • 33. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                        hignatius Level 1
                                                                        I've sent in a case to Adobe. Should hear from them soon.
                                                                        • 34. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                                          > Should hear from them soon.

                                                                          :D
                                                                          • 35. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                            Level 1
                                                                            Thank you to all who have responded. Right now I'm taking the easy way out - editing in ACR CS4, saving the file, opening and printing from CS3.
                                                                            • 36. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                              Level 1
                                                                              Update on my situation.

                                                                              I changed three things, and my color problems appear to be fixed...

                                                                              (1) Changed the default ACR profile back to ACR 4.4, it somehow got changed to something else...?

                                                                              (2)unchecked "Desaturate monitor colors by..." in the advanced color settings box. I have no idea how it got checked in the first place...

                                                                              (3) re-calibrated my monitor to 6500K instead of 5500k.

                                                                              I never changed these settings,so I have no idea how they got changed, but these changes resolved my issues
                                                                              • 37. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                                hignatius Level 1
                                                                                I may have a different problem then the rest of you. Adobe accepted my report and opened a case so we'll see what that brings.

                                                                                I have been able to isolate this down to a program error in CS4. The reason why I believe this to be true is because of observed behavior that I was able to reproduce in Bridge.

                                                                                Let's say I have a folder with four images in it. If I open Bridge (filmstrip mode) in my primary monitor - the images all look good. However, if select one image from the content panel, observe the image in the preview and move the entire window to my secondary monitor - the preview of the selected image does not change - however, the filmstrip appears to modify itself to compensate for the secondary color monitor that I dragged the window into. If I now select another image in the same filmstrip the color appears to snap to the secondary monitors profile and all works as expected. As long as Bridge opens and closes on the same monitor all is well. As soon as I start to move the window to the other monitor I get the same initial bad color in the preview panel until I click another image in the filmstrip panel. It appears that the preview image does not compensate for the monitor change.

                                                                                The preview panel image behavior is exactly the problem I see in Photoshop. However, I can not just tell Photoshop to always open images in my secondary monitor - it seems to always default to the primary. Since I'm unable to refresh the image, like I did in Bridge, the colors are consistently wrong.

                                                                                CS3 did not work this way - if I closed an image in my secondary monitor the next image would open in the same space I closed the previous one and moving the window with the image from one monitor to the next always compensated for the color profile in the target monitor.

                                                                                I believe that if I had a system with two identical monitors that the problem would be less noticeable. I believe I am able to see this better since I always use my secondary color calibrated monitor for editing since my primary is a laptop with an LCD which is unreliable for color reproduction even if I calibrate it all the time, which I do not.

                                                                                So we will we what Adobe comes up with.
                                                                                • 38. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                                  (Joseph_Smith_Sr.) Level 1
                                                                                  Wow. I have been struggling with this same problem for 2+ weeks and thought I was going to pull all my hair out.

                                                                                  PS CS4 is essentially unusable to me at this point. I really can't tell what's real anymore within PS.

                                                                                  I have tried everything mentioned in this thread - plus some - to no avail.

                                                                                  I "upgraded" from PS CS2 and did not experience this problem in CS2.

                                                                                  All my work looks perfect in just about any application I open it in (including Adobe Bridge!), but PS mucks it all up. I found adjusting the "Exposure" up ~0.5 or so in PS brings the image almost back to normal, but this PS behaviour is unacceptable.

                                                                                  I'll be watching for a fix for PS CS4, as I am quite certain the problem lies within.Meanwhile, it's back to CS2 for me.
                                                                                  • 39. Re: Color Problems with CS4 Upgrade
                                                                                    Level 1
                                                                                    Hi All,

                                                                                    I just upgraded to PS CS4 and have noticed the same problem.

                                                                                    I have a 24" iMac with a 23" Apple Cinema Display. The ACD is calibrated with ColorEyes Pro.

                                                                                    When I open an image in PS CS4 and move it to the ACD, the color profile for that monitor doesn't seem to get applied.

                                                                                    As a test, I opened the same image in PS CS3 and PS CS4 and moved them both to the calibrated ACD. The CS4 image looked reddish, the CS3 looked correct.

                                                                                    Rob
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