12 Replies Latest reply on Dec 19, 2007 7:29 PM by Jao vdL

    Display differences between machines.

    ElliR Level 2
      Has anyone please any idea why this image opened in Elements Camera Raw should look flat like this:

      http://community.dcmag.co.uk/photos/alan_inghams_gallery/picture678816.aspx

      and when opened on another machine which show exactly the same default settings look like this:

      http://community.dcmag.co.uk/photos/alan_inghams_gallery/picture678576.aspx

      The first image is flat beyond belief whilst the second appears completely different. Both machine monitors are calibrated and there doesn't appear to be any settings in Elements Camera Raw to change any working space settings etc etc. Any advice/help would be appreciated. Thanks.

      Windows XP
        • 1. Re: Display differences between machines.
          michael shaffer Level 1
          Not enough information provided, so let's first assume that one computer is using different defaults than the other. Try editing one (e.g., change the exposure and close). Regarding the next step, I don't know how to do this with an Elements installation, but you should be able to copy the settings of the edited raw image to the other. For CSx & Bridge this is made easy by right-clicking and copy/paste. In which case, if they are processed the same, they should appear the same (for properly color-managed computers). You can also rename the editted RAW file and move it to the other computer, open both in ACR and view.

          Leastwise, you can try to make sure that both are processed exactly the same way, in which case they should appear the same.
          • 2. Re: Display differences between machines.
            ElliR Level 2
            Michael

            Thanks, maybe I didn't explain the situation clear enough in my original post.

            (a) when the image is right-clicked upon (Explorer) and the option chosen to open in Elements 5.0 then ACR opens by default. Without any of the sliders being moved i.e. the radio button is set at Default the result is as shown in the first link e.g. completely lifeless.

            (b) when the same image is opened on another machine in exactly the same manner as described above the image is displayed as shown in the second link i.e. much more lifefull and saturated. Just to emphasize - still no sliders have been moved and the radio button is as for the first machine set at default.

            The result is that two machines are showing different renderings of the same image although you will note that the slider settings (not very clear from the screenshot I know) are all set the same.

            As a RAW image does not have an associated colour profile and there are not any settings to change within Elements RAW (ACR) it is hard to find an explanation as to why the images should be displayed in entirely different ways.

            Referring to your last sentence which says "Leastwise, you can try to make sure that both are processed exactly the same way, in which case they should appear the same" I don't quite follow what you are saying. The images are NOT being processed - they are simply being opened in ACR via Elements, default setting, sliders are reading the same for both representations - it is just that they are being displayed differently.
            • 3. Re: Display differences between machines.
              michael shaffer Level 1
              > The images are NOT being processed - they are simply being opened in ACR ...

              Oh, but they are being processed ... ie, raw data doesn't look anything like what ACR presents. Different installations of ACR may be processing with different defaults (despite the slider adjustments), but if you make a slight adjustment (just to make a slight change) and then save it it becomes a raw file with the processing parameters associated with the file. Oooops!, I just realised for any raw file other than DNG, the processing information is save as a sidecar file, and I don't know how this works for elements.

              To save and embed the processing info in the raw file itself and possibly make this troubleshooting more straight-forward, you'd need to 1st convert the files to DNG, rename one of them, and try the above with the DNG raw files. (Not to advocate using DNG, but simply to keep the processing info embedded with the file and make moving the files from one computer to another easier).
              • 4. Re: Display differences between machines.
                ElliR Level 2
                Michael
                "Oh, but they are being processed ... ie, raw data doesn't look anything like what ACR presents. Different installations of ACR may be processing with different defaults (despite the slider adjustments),"

                Very interesting - are you telling me then that if I have two identical machines sitting side by side with identical configurations and setups and both using the same version of ACR that these two machines will process the RAW data differently and that what may be a default on machine 1 could be something entirely different on machine 2?

                What is it that decides the processing parameters then?
                • 5. Re: Display differences between machines.
                  JimHess-8IPblY Level 3
                  On one computer ACR could be set to apply auto adjustments, and on the other one it could be set to default. It is possible that new camera raw defaults have been saved on one of the computers.

                  A lot of people assume that ACR is ACR, and that is not the case at all. It is a plug-in that is completely configurable. It is possible to change the behavior extensively.

                  In your comparison, did you download the picture to each computer? Try making adjustments on one computer and then take a copy of that adjusted file to the other computer including the XMP sidecar file. If your monitors are calibrated to match on the two computers, the file should look the same on both.
                  • 6. Re: Display differences between machines.
                    Rags Gardner
                    ElliR,

                    Just my two cents. I notice that the two histograms appear to be identical. This implies that the image processing for both was indeed identical.

                    Further, I notice that the menu colors in the two screen shots are not the same. If the user settings are the same, this implies that the monitor calibrations are very different.

                    The screen with the washed out (flat) image is brighter and the white point (CCT) has too much yellow. My guess is that the monitor calibration on this machine did not work.

                    Cheers, Rags :-)
                    • 7. Re: Display differences between machines.
                      michael shaffer Level 1
                      > are you telling me then that if I have two identical machines sitting side by side with identical configurations and setups and both using the same version of ACR that these two machines will process the RAW data differently and that what may be a default on machine 1 could be something entirely different on machine 2?

                      I believe Jim Hess answered that ... but as rare as the instance may be, I wanted to eliminate the possibility before looking at the hardware color management. If the histogram are indeed identical, then Rags nailed that.

                      holidays' cheerios :)
                      • 8. Re: Display differences between machines.
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                        >The screen with the washed out (flat) image is brighter and the white point (CCT) has too much yellow. My guess is that the monitor calibration on this machine did not work.

                        I agree! This is very clearly a miscalibrated monitor. The histograms are the same, so the images should look the same if they are rendered into the same color space.
                        • 9. Re: Display differences between machines.
                          ElliR Level 2
                          Ok fellas, I'm lisening and absorbing all these facts but still something doesn't tie up yet.
                          Leave aside the issue that the two screenshots appear different in the panels which is as a result of one machine using the in-built Windows screen capture method whilst the other machine is using a seperate application for screen capture hence one has a yellow highlight box appended to it etc. The main focus of interest as I see it should be on the histogram and the images themselves. The histogram and the sliders (reading the same on both machines) shows that this image has been rendered exactly the same but of course their appearance is completely different.
                          I would subscribe to the theory of a badly calibrated monitor if it wasn't for the fact that (a) the monitor has been correctly calibrated but (b) and more importantly - when the image that is being displayed badly is opened up in CS2 (ACR) it looks just fine and as it appears on the machine that is displaying it correctly in the first place.
                          In short, and just concentrating on the one machine - the image is being displayed flat and unsaturated in ACR (Elements) whilst being displayed good and more saturated when opened in ACR (CS2). Same machine, same monitor, same image but two entirely different renderings.
                          • 10. Re: Display differences between machines.
                            michael shaffer Level 1
                            > In short, and just concentrating on the one machine - the image is being displayed flat and unsaturated in ACR (Elements) whilst being displayed good and more saturated when opened in ACR (CS2). Same machine, same monitor, same image but two entirely different renderings.

                            It would seem your installation of Elements is improperly color-managed(?) Can I also assume that if you open the "flat-yellow" image into Elements itself, it also looks "flat-yellow" (while, on the same computer, opened in PS CS2 it looks correct)?

                            It may be time to ask how your monitors are calibrated -- that is, I remember some people having problems that also ended up with yellow-ish appearance, when their computer booted with 2 apps trying to profile their monitor. If an improperly profiled monitor is somehow messing with Elements, and not with PS, you might have better luck asking the Elements forum about how it's color-managed.

                            Not to suggest you should mess with the XP registry, but there's possibility that someone in the Elements forum knows which registry values to check. I would expect the PS and Elements registry references to the color profile to be the same. To begin, you can check the profile that is shown for the XP desktop display properlties -- ie:

                            right-click your desktop => 'Display=>Properties=>Settings=>Advanced=>Color Management".

                            The entry there should be what you'd expect. If not, you can set it to your profile, reboot and see what happens ...

                            HTH & holidays' cheerios :)
                            • 11. Re: Display differences between machines.
                              ElliR Level 2
                              Michael

                              "It would seem your installation of Elements is improperly color-managed(?) Can I also assume that if you open the "flat-yellow" image into Elements itself, it also looks "flat-yellow" (while, on the same computer, opened in PS CS2 it looks correct)?"

                              Strangely enough - no. Without doing anything in ACR (Elements - the flat image) other than click on Open to take the image into the Editor at which time it looks just fine just as it does in CS2.

                              My take on this is that the problem lies fairly and squarly with ACR in Elements but there's not a lot of preferences to play around with here and certainly non that would alter the outcome of how the image is being displayed.

                              Oh well, back to the drawing board and keep delving......:-(
                              • 12. Re: Display differences between machines.
                                Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                >In short, and just concentrating on the one machine - the image is being displayed flat and unsaturated in ACR (Elements) whilst being displayed good and more saturated when opened in ACR (CS2). Same machine, same monitor, same image but two entirely different renderings.

                                In that case, you definitely have a wrong color management setting in either Elements or Photoshop. My guess is elements, but since I do not use it, I have no idea how to fix it.