25 Replies Latest reply on Jul 10, 2008 5:11 PM by Ramón G Castañeda

    Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?

    Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
      Is there anyway to set ProPhoto RGB as the output space in ACR 4.4.1 hosted by Ps Elements 6 on a Windows Vista Home Premium laptop?

      The images will be properly corrected using the full version of Photoshop 10.0.1 on my Mac, but I'm used to seeing the ACR preview window with ProPhoto RGB 16-bit set as the output space.

      Or do the limitations of Ps Elements cripple ACR in this regard too?
        • 1. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
          Level 1
          It's not possible, AFAIK. Elements won't do 16 bit, so ProPhoto would not
          be advisable even if it were possible.
          • 2. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
            Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
            ACR does give me the 16-bit option hosted by Elements 6 Windows. That's why I was wondering about a color profile option.

            I'd post a screenshot if I had figured out how to make one in Windows. I'll google that.

            It appears that the bit depth choice is the only one selectable as far as output options.

            I won't be doing any color corrections or editing in Elements, other than using the Organizer to view the files and delete the obvious mistakes, maybe even an occasional crop in ACR to be saved in metadata. I definitely see a difference in the ACR Preview hosted by Photoshop 10.0.1 when switching to the wider ProPhoto RGB color space in the ACR output options.

            Thanks for your input.
            • 3. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
              Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
              Here's the screen shot: <br /> <br />c <a href="http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1LAybr6hB4xEBW4aNu0mASsnoWIwA" /></a> <img alt="Picture hosted by Pixentral" src="http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1LAybr6hB4xEBW4aNu0mASsnoWIwA_thumb.jpg" border="0" />
              • 4. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                Level 1
                Right you are. I did not realize that Elements now supports 16 bit. Thanks
                for the info.

                I'd be interested in seeing an image whose display changes depending on the
                use of ProPhoto.
                • 5. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                  Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                  >an image whose display changes depending on the use of ProPhoto.

                  Go to the output options in the ACR window and change the intended color profile. If you see no difference between the display when set to 8-bit sRGB and 16-bit ProphotoRGB, you need a new monitor --or you have very poor color perception in both eyes. :/

                  [EDIT: Provided you have a reasonably well exposed image with a great gamut of colors, of course.]
                  • 6. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                    Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                    The change can even be seen in a lot of cases with what happens to the black and white clipping indicators in ACR --again given a good image.
                    • 7. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                      michael shaffer Level 1
                      > Go to the output options in the ACR window and change the intended color profile. If you see no difference between the display when set to 8-bit sRGB and 16-bit ProphotoRGB, you need a new monitor --or you have very poor color perception in both eyes. ...

                      I don't understand this statement. That is, if ACR is properly compensating for the monitor via its ICC, AND the raw data is accurately being rendered into both ppRGB and sRGB, then why would you see anything other than ppRGB and sRGB color appropriately displayed relative to your monitor's color space? That is, I have a good CRT, accurately profiled, and ACR shows me no differences if to choose either ppRGB or sRGB (except color saturation clipping when enabled). Admittedly some saturated colors may show subtle differences on an expensive and capable monitor, but that's the rare exception.

                      Or, doesn't Adobe Elements do color management??
                      • 8. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                        Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                        >shows me no differences if to choose either ppRGB or sRGB (except color saturation clipping when enabled). Admittedly some saturated colors may show subtle differences on an expensive and capable monitor, but that's the rare exception.

                        Duh!
                        c
                        • 9. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                          >doesn't Adobe Elements do color management?

                          Not remotely. You can't assign a color profile, you cannot convert an image to a color space. They only let you specify "Optimize for Web" in Edit Color Settings, in which case Elements assigns sRGB to your images (!!!), or "Optimize for Print", in which case it assigns Adobe RGB. Period. (Lame.)

                          ACR is very substantially crippled in Elements, even more so than I had assumed from screen shots and comments before actually playing with program.

                          I will only use Elements to view images on the laptop before burning them to CDs and DVDs in the field, deleting the obviously wasted shots and maybe applying an occasional crop or two. I wouldn't trust the screen on a laptop to judge colors in any way.

                          I'll try Picasa2 and any other freeware application. That may turn out to be a better solution for the Windows laptop anyway.

                          Of course, I'll do the editing in CS3 on my desktop Mac. The idea of the laptop is to burn images in the field, as in an extended cruise, for instance.
                          • 10. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                            Level 1
                            The output settings should not be relevant to the display within ACR. This
                            is because nternally, ACR uses a linear RGB space, with the ProPhoto
                            primaries, very close to ProPhoto RGB.

                            I would enjoy seeing an example raw file that showed a difference using
                            ProPhoto as the output space. Perhaps something with intense blues, or
                            very saturated dark or light colors.
                            • 12. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                              Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                              Just waht I said in #5:

                              Go to the output options in the ACR window and change the intended color profile. If you see no difference between the display when set to 8-bit sRGB and 16-bit ProphotoRGB, you need a new monitor --or you have very poor color perception in both eyes.
                              • 13. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                Level 1
                                PSE does do colour management, it's just mostly limited to sRGB and AdobeRGB. The colour settings determine the working space, however it will preserve profiles if they differ. ACR uses effectively the colour space set there, basically your monitor profile, sRGB or AdobeRGB. It has done this since PSE 4.0.

                                You can also convert between sRGB and AdobeRGB using the convert color profile menu, so you could have AdobeRGB as your working space, convert a RAW file to 16 bit Adobe RGB, and then create an 8-bit sRGB version for web viewing.

                                It will also preserve existing image profiles other than sRGB/AdobeRGB providing you are not in no colour management mode, in which case it ignores and discards all profiles.

                                So if you could find some way of batch converting your RAW files, then PSE will handle the results and allow you to crop and view slide shows without changing the profile from ProPhoto RGB for example. How well it preserves data I'm not sure, but it doesn't complain.

                                So perhaps there is a bit more to PSE than it's given credit for with colour management. Since version 4.0, it's been much better than it used to be and also supports a reasonable level of 16 bit editing as well. I haven't used version 6.0 yet, but I'm sure such support has only improved since 4.0.
                                • 14. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                  michael shaffer Level 1
                                  > ..., but I'm used to seeing the ACR preview window with ProPhoto RGB 16-bit set as the output space ...

                                  As you know quite well, you're not seeing PpRGB colors, rather only monitor colors and the capability to export to PpRGB. Admittedly, when enabled, the highlight and shadow "clipping" presentation is relative to the chosen color space, but I would suggest the indicators are not "realistic" relative to any real world output device (but still nice to have and see).

                                  So, you're left with upgrading to CS3 for you're laptop, or living with a "realistic" aRGB presentation on your PSE laptop and developing within CS3 on your Mac. I'd suggest Lightroom might be a good alternative for your Windows laptop, but clipped values are not relative to color space in Lr (but [correct me if I'm wrong] you would be allowed to use calibration settings).
                                  • 15. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                    michael shaffer Level 1
                                    Oops! ... my last post is very much out of context. IE, I thought this was a new thread :)
                                    • 16. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                      Tim Lookingbill Level 1
                                      Well I'm totally confused after reading this entire thread.

                                      OK, let me nail this down so I can understand this. After messing around with ACR in CS2 and CS3, I know that the preview is generated by an unknown source color profile that is generated by Adobe's color engine in relation to the monitor profile and default ACR settings.

                                      We can't change the ACR preview by assigning other profiles/color spaces to the data like we can in Photoshop. The preview being generated by assigning a source space to the data is being done under the hood so to speak. The output AND working space within ACR is a choice of ProPhotoRGB, AdobeRGB, etc. which, when changed, affects the shape of the histogram (an indicator of the OUTPUT encoding of data) but doesn't drastically change the preview as if assigning a narrow space to wide gamut data or vice versa.

                                      We never get to see the linear (dark, dull with histogram shoved to the left) data and preview in relation to the monitor profile because there is no setting for this in ACR.

                                      So does Elements now work this way as well? Or are Element's ACR previews generated by assigning ProPhotoRGB, AdobeRGB , etc. to the data as chosen in ACR's output/working space and noticeably changing the appearance of hue/saturation just like assigning wide color space to narrow data and vice versa?
                                      • 17. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                        Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                        Ian Stickland's post #13 is very confusing, coming more than one month after #12 and not specifying which post he's referencing.

                                        It's manifestly irrelevant to the original post, so Ian must have one of the replies in mind. ???
                                        • 18. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                          Tim,
                                          >Or are Element's ACR previews generated by assigning ProPhotoRGB, AdobeRGB , etc. to the data as chosen in ACR's output/working space

                                          The problem is that there are NO SUCH CHOICES in ACR when hosted by Elements.

                                          Ultimately I found Elements utterly useless and I'm getting my money back from Adobe. A refund number has been issued.

                                          I'm using the full version of Photoshop 10.0.1 on my Mac and I got the GIMP for the laptop, which I use essentially just to burn my CF cards to DVDs in the field.
                                          • 19. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                            Level 1
                                            Sorry, didn't mean to confuse... :-)

                                            I was just trying to say that Elements DOES colour manage, which Ramon was saying it does not. It just limits that management to sRGB and Adobe RGB. I wasn't trying to imply that ACR somehow can do anything different in Elements to full PS.

                                            If someone came here from the Elements forums from which this one is linked and read that Elements cannot colour manage they would rightly be confused, as it can. Just not as much as PS, but it can deal with ProPhoto RGB as long as some other program creates the file correctly with a ProPhoto RGB profile. Clearly ACR cannot do that creation within Elements as Ramon was initially asking...
                                            • 20. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                              Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                              > Elements DOES colour manage, which Ramon was saying it does not.

                                              I said no such thing!Ooops! I did say that. :/

                                              However, PsElements pathetic color management is reduced to the choice between "optimize for web" (sRGB) and "optimize for print" (Adobe RGB).
                                              • 21. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                I cannot imagine anyone who has used the full version of Photoshop not being frustrated to the point of exasperation with Elements.
                                                • 22. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                                  Tim Lookingbill Level 1
                                                  Thanks for clarifying Ramon and Ian.

                                                  Saves me buying Elements which I was considering over upgrading to CS2. That extra $50 was worth it for CS2.

                                                  I'm assuming the choices of sRGB and AdobeRGB in Element's ACR is strictly output and working space. Regardless of which is chosen the preview stays the same in ACR. Correct?

                                                  Does Elements ACR embed the sRGB or AdobeRGB working space after saving to tiff and can you save in 16bit tiff as well?
                                                  • 23. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                                    Level 1
                                                    > I'm assuming the choices of sRGB and AdobeRGB in Element's ACR is strictly output and working space. Regardless of which is chosen the preview stays the same in ACR. Correct?

                                                    > Does Elements ACR embed the sRGB or AdobeRGB working space after saving to tiff and can you save in 16bit tiff as well?

                                                    The way things work in Elements is that you have four choices for colour management:

                                                    None - This means any file you open will have any embedded profile ignored, the working space is effectively the same as your monitor, when you save a file any existing profile is removed.

                                                    Optimize for Web - This sets the working space to sRGB, so any file without a profile will be edited in that space. When you save such a file you can embed sRGB as it's profile on saving.

                                                    Optimize for Print - This sets the working space to Adobe RGB, and then behaves as for optimze for web but using Adobe RGB.

                                                    Let me choose - For files with no embedded profile, you can choose between sRGB or Adobe RGB and that will be the working space profile for that file. You can then save it with that profile.

                                                    For the latter three options, Elemenets always preserves the embedded profile if a file has one. So, if you have Elements set to optimze for web, but open a file with Adobe RGB, it will use Adobe RGB. Unlike full PS, you can't force sRGB working space on an Adobe RGB file. It will also preserve ProPhoto RGB too it seems, even though it's not a profile you can use in Elements to create files with.

                                                    Elements also provides the ability to convert (not assign) between sRGB and Adobe RGB. You can effectively do an assign by saving a file without the embedded profile, and then setting Elements colour settings to let me choose and then selecting the profile you wanted at that point...

                                                    As for ACR, I believe the preview works no differently than it does in full PS other than there is no option to select the output space in the ACR window (along with other restricted options). This is effectively set by the Elements color settings above, so you will get sRGB for optimse for web or Adobe RGB for optimise for print. When it's set to let me choose, I think it defaults to using whatever your camera's default colour space is set to as this is still in the EXIF info, but am not sure there. ACR does let you specify 16 bit output though, so depending on the base colour settings in Elements you can create a 16-bit AdobeRGB TIFF file, save it with the correct profile, and also easily create a correct 8-bit sRGB JPEG from it for web use.

                                                    So, no, Elements is not as flexible as full PS, but, if you want to stick with Adobe RGB and sRGB, then I reckon it's all there and it's not quite as pathetic as Ramon says. If you want ProPhoto RGB, then to be fair, Elements is probably not for you anyway.
                                                    • 25. Re: Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?
                                                      Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                                      Well, to me it is quite pathetic, Ian. :)

                                                      > It [PsElements] will also preserve ProPhoto RGB too it seems, even though it's not a profile you can use in Elements to create files with.

                                                      You don't seem sure ("it seems"), and I'm most skeptical. In any way, there's no way of determining that for sure within PsElements.

                                                      Additionally, I have no way of knowing what PsElements does with a file created by a third party in a different color space, such as Wide Gamut RGB, Color Match RGB or whatever.

                                                      Finally, in my book, soft proofing is an integral part of color management. PsElements has no such functionality, and neither does Lightroom, by the way, which is unforgivable in the case of applications with printing capabilities.

                                                      Also, the way ACR is [understandably] crippled in PsElements feels like a kick in the stomach.

                                                      In sum, I believe pathetic is a generous adjective to apply to Photoshop Elements. Just my personal opinion.