20 Replies Latest reply on Jul 17, 2008 10:31 AM by (dave990)

    Definge available in PSE6??

      I was reading Jeff Schewe's excellent "About Camera Raw 4.1" article in PhotoShopNews and learning a great deal until I got to the portion on "Defringe Controls". I was sort of surprised by this section because I didn't remember ACR having a defringe capability when I process a RAW file in Photoshop Elements 6 (Windows), or, for that matter, the "Lens Correction" tab that was supposed to bring up the defringe sliders. Sure enough, I checked, and the only tabs I see are "Basic" and "Detail".

      Is this just a punishment for buying the low $ product, or do I have somethiing set-up wrong?

      Thanks
        • 1. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
          Level 1
          >Is this just a punishment for buying the low $ product, or do I have somethiing set-up wrong?

          For $99, what do you expect? :~)

          Yes, Camera Raw in Elements is "elemental" (meaning the high end stuff isn't there).
          • 2. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
            athegn Level 2
            I use this with Elements:-

            http://epaperpress.com/ptlens/
            • 3. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
              Level 1
              >> Is this just a punishment for buying the low $ product, or do I have somethiing set-up wrong?

              > For $99, what do you expect? :~)

              > Yes, Camera Raw in Elements is "elemental" (meaning the high end stuff isn't there).

              Jeff,

              I guess what I expected is that Adobe would not arbitrarily remove capabilities from a plug-in just to make it less useful. When ACR is mentioned on the Adobe site it is consistently referenced as though it were a single product with a single set of capabilities. The idea that you would spend extra programming time to mask out capabilities so that one of your products would be less useful never occurred to me. To me, this is akin to detuning an algorithm so that it will not work as well in lesser versions of a product.


              athegn - thanks for the heads up. It looks like a nice product. For the time being though, I'll probably stick to using the RAW conversion software that came with my camera. It does a very nice job and even has "high-end" features like correcting chromatic aberration. Using ACR would have improved my work flow, but I guess I set my expectations too high.
              • 4. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                the way ACR is [understandably] crippled in PsElements feels like a kick in the stomach.


                Excerpted from:

                Ramón G Castañeda, "Anyway to set ProPhotoRGB as output space in ACR hosted by Elements?" #25, 10 Jul 2008 6:11 pm
                • 5. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                  Level 1
                  >but I guess I set my expectations too high.

                  You set your expectation way beyond the reality of a $99 product, yes.
                  • 6. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                    Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                    Not even $99. I had paid $79.99 for PsElements 6 at Costco, and I received a refund check from Adobe for that amount yesterday. :)
                    • 7. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                      Level 1
                      >You set your expectation way beyond the reality of a $99 product, yes.

                      I don't believe it was one bit unrealistic to expect that the features of the ACR plug-in would be the same for PSE6 as they are for other Adobe products.

                      The download seems to be the same no matter what product will be invoking ACR, so it seems reasonable to think that the capabilities would be the same. Conversely, it does not seem reasonable to think that Adobe would go to special lengths to mask out features just to make Elements a worse product.

                      The idea that one should be able to tell from a product's price what features it has seems a little silly. Adobe Acrobat Reader is free. Does that mean that it should have no features at all?

                      To date, I haven't seen your line "For $99, what do you expect" in any of the marketing literature for PSE. Maybe you could suggest to some of the marketing types there that this be the new product tag line.
                      • 8. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                        Level 1
                        >I don't believe it was one bit unrealistic to expect that the features of the ACR plug-in would be the same for PSE6 as they are for other Adobe products.

                        Considering the base level difference between Photoshop CS3 and Photoshop Elements 6.0, I think you are expecting Champaign on a beer budget...Elements is made for the non=pro user looking for an entry level product on an entry level budget. There's a lot that Elements can't do that Photoshop can do...DOH, one should expect a different feature list between a $99 product and a $699 product, don't you think? Part of that is the desired feature list expected by non-pro users, part of the pricing is based on trying to offer an entry level product for a lower price.

                        If you are unhappy about your Photoshop Elements product, feel free to return it within 30 days for a full refund. If you are complaining that Elements doesn't have the full featured capability of the full version of Camera Raw, then you won't be getting too much sympathy from those people who HAVE purchased the full version of Photoshop.
                        • 9. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                          Level 1
                          > Considering the base level difference between Photoshop CS3 and Photoshop Elements 6.0, I think you are expecting Champaign on a beer budget...

                          I heartily disagree. A closer analogy would be that I didn't expect the server to drink part of my beer while he was bringing it to the table.

                          >If you are complaining that Elements doesn't have the full featured capability of the full version of Camera Raw, then you won't be getting too much sympathy from those people who HAVE purchased the full version of Photoshop.

                          First, I never made any such complaint. Second, that's a really bogus argument. I have trouble believing that CS3 users would be upset if ACR weren't crippled for PSE. Have you EVER had a complaint from a CS3 user that Elements had too much functionality?

                          > If you are unhappy about your Photoshop Elements product, feel free to return it within 30 days for a full refund.

                          I have had Elements for more than 30 days, and I never said I was unhappy with Elements. There are two things I am unhappy with -

                          1) The idea that Adobe went to extra effort just to mask out capabilities.

                          2) The flip reply "For $99, what do you expect". This rationale could be used to justify any omission, lack of function or even bug in Elements. Correcting chromatic aberration is NOT some highly sophisticated pro level feature. It's a feature that's available in nearly all raw converters, including the freebies from the camera manufacturers.
                          • 10. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                            Level 1
                            >Correcting chromatic aberration is NOT some highly sophisticated pro level feature.

                            Says you...if you have data to back this up, fill me in. Otherwise, I suspect that the VAST majority of Elements users would not know what the term "chromatic aberration" means, let alone defringing. I would suspect the vast majority of Elements users don't even shoot raw.

                            And it makes perfect business sense that a $99 product does NOT have the same functionality that a $699 product does. Elements does not have CMYK, nor an easy way to do curves. There's a bunch of stuff not in Elements. How many Elements users do YOU think needs defringing? 10%? 50%? 90%? Well, it's a moot point because the Camera Raw version for Elements doesn't have it. You want it? You'll need to get the full version that comes in Photoshop CS3. Course, you get a lot more than merely the full version of Camera Raw...if it's important to you, I believe Adobe offers a cross/upgrade from Elements to Photoshop.
                            • 11. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                              Level 1
                              I think Dave has a fair point.

                              Perhaps the next edition of RWCR could include an Elements/Photoshop icon
                              next to each command, and/or a feature matrix that shows which items are
                              available in Photoshop only.

                              Photographic talent and ability is not tied to a budget. Many Elements
                              owners create truly excellent photographs.
                              • 12. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                MethodPhoto Level 1
                                The title of the book is Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3, so the assumption might be that it looks at the Photoshop version of the plugin?!?!?
                                • 13. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                  Level 1
                                  > The title of the book is Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3, so the assumption might be that it looks at the Photoshop version of the plugin?!?!?

                                  OK. Point taken. This is no excuse for disrespect.
                                  • 14. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                    MethodPhoto Level 1
                                    Calm down, there is no disrespect here. Simply that the title of the book is such that you wouldn't expect it to mention too much about Elements.

                                    I think there are Philip Andrews books on Elements which cover this material, but then I suppose it is not quite the same as having Jeff and Bruce's voice!
                                    • 15. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                      Yammer Level 4
                                      I was surprised to learn that the Elements version of Camera Raw was different, not because I expect something for nothing, but because it has the same name, and isn't called Camera Raw Lite or somesuch.
                                      • 16. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                        Level 1
                                        >Correcting chromatic aberration is NOT some highly sophisticated pro level feature.
                                        Says you...if you have data to back this up, fill me in.

                                        As I said before, nearly every raw converter out there provides this feature, including the ones provided free by camera manufacturers and the shareware ones.

                                        > I suspect that the VAST majority of Elements users would not know what the term "chromatic aberration" means, let alone defringing. I would suspect the vast majority of Elements users don't even shoot raw.

                                        The arrogance and disrespect in that statement is amazing. I don't know what the VAST majority of Elements users do any more than you do, but the fact that Adobe added raw conversion to Elements seems to show someone thought there was a need. As far as chromatic aberration and defringing, I really think you would benefit from browsing a few of the forums (you could try DPREVIEW or STEVES-DIGICAMS). I think you'll find that there are a lot of non-CS3 users out there who know a fair amount about photography. Admittedly, many of them use non-Adobe products, but after hearing your attitude, it's easy to see why.

                                        >And it makes perfect business sense that a $99 product does NOT have the same functionality that a $699 product does. Elements does not have CMYK, nor an easy way to do curves.

                                        CMYK is of use mostly for professional printers or those preparing for professional printing. It makes perfect sense for it to be present only in CS3. Chromatic aberration affects pretty much everyone with a digital camera. Using sliders to defringe is not difficult, and is certainly not nearly complex as using curves well.

                                        >How many Elements users do YOU think needs defringing? 10%? 50%? 90%?

                                        Pretty much 100% of the people who own digital cameras NEED defringing. If you are trying to ask what percentage of Elements users would USE defringing, I would bet that most Elements users who use the raw converter would also use defringing.

                                        >Well, it's a moot point because the Camera Raw version for Elements doesn't have it

                                        Wrong - There is no "Camera Raw version for Elements". There is only only one version of Camera Raw. It merely masks out some of its features when called by Elements.

                                        >You want it? You'll need to get the full version that comes in Photoshop CS3.

                                        Wrong again. I can just use the raw converter that came with my camera.

                                        If you will read my first message, I never said that defringing was a must have feature for me. I merely asked if I had installed something wrong or if I was being punished for buying the low $ product. You've answered that question more than adequately.
                                        • 17. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                          MethodPhoto Level 1
                                          It is more that Elements does the restriction, it is the same Camera Raw plugin
                                          • 18. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                            Level 1
                                            > It is more that Elements does the restriction, it is the same Camera Raw plugin

                                            I would think that the actual code to mask the features is in the plug-in, and is invoked based on either parameters passed by the calling program or by detecting the name of the calling module. I don't think Elements really has any control after calling ACR.

                                            I agree with your other point above though. The article was in Photoshop News, so it makes perfect sense that it only referred to CS3 use of ACR. I asked the question because I wanted to be sure.

                                            This really isn't that big of a deal for me. I only do rough processing in Elements/ACR to create initial JPEGs. Final processing of the "keepers" is done with other software. Correcting chromatic aberration as a part of the first step would be nice but it's certainly not a necessity. If the initial answer had been "defringing is not available when using Camera Raw from Elements", I would have just dropped it at that point.

                                            The "what do you expect for $99" got my ire up. The inference that inexpensive software should automatically be lousy software is really offensive to me. I believe in giving a customer as much as you can, not in giving them as little as you can get away with.
                                            • 19. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                              JimHess-8IPblY Level 3
                                              Then drop it! If all you are using Elements/ACR is to create "initial JPEGs" to use for editing, why are you even bothering to shoot raw images? Converting to JPEG introduces JPEG compression and artifacts and a lot of other issues. A better choice, in my opinion, would be to convert to TIFF or PSD, and use that file for all of your Elements editing. But that is your choice. You can beat this thread to death if you want, but your ranting is getting tiresome.
                                              • 20. Re: Definge available in PSE6??
                                                Level 1
                                                Jim,

                                                Sorry if my comments bother you, but I believe the points expressed are valid. If you think the thread is tiresome you really don't have to keep reading it.

                                                The point of creating the initial JPEGS is to have an easily viewable set of pictures catalogued on my main hard drive. The JPEGs are just fine for browsing through and for identifying pictures that I think merit serious PP. For these pictures, I pull the raw file from archive for PP. Converting to TIFF would take more room, and wouldn't be merited for this use. Saving to PSD wouldn't make much sense since I'm not doing any substantial editing with Elements after the ACR process.