11 Replies Latest reply on Aug 5, 2008 6:11 PM by (Tony_Gwynn-Jones)

    Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation

    rasworth Level 1
      Ok, now I'm dangerous, have used dng_validate to dissect several profiles, both Adobe base and various constructed with PE. I believe I have a reasonable grasp as to which tags are added/modified for various PE operations.

      I believe the Adobe Camera Neutral Beta 1 for the D300 does a good job of matching the Nikon neutral picture control. However, my normal configuration for walk-around shooting is the neutral picture control with +1 contrast and +1 saturation. It's easy enough to add contrast to the Adobe Neutral profile with a tone curve; however so far the only advice on adding global saturation is to move the matrix sat. controls, which in turn modifies the ForwardMatrix tags. Is moving each of the three sat controls an equal amount really equivalent to adding a fixed global saturation across all colors?

      Or is it better to set up a table with all 18 cc colors and add a fixed saturation to each? Too bad there isn't a global command that would add a fixed sat amount to every entry in the ProfileHueSatMap tags.

      Richard Southworth
        • 1. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
          Level 1
          >Or is it better to set up a table with all 18 cc colors and add a fixed saturation to each? Too bad there isn't a global command that would add a fixed sat amount to every entry in the ProfileHueSatMap tags.

          To a certain extent, you really may be better off leaving the more exacting global saturation and contrast controls to Camera Raw. While I can see the reasoning behind editing a camera profile, using a camera profile for image editing (or what I would consider image editing requirements) would seem to be just a bit beyond the scope of what DPE is intended for. You could easily tweak the sat & contrast in Camera Raw and either reset that as the camera default (in combination with either the 'Camera Neutral Beta 1' profile or an edited profile) or simply create a preset.

          The question really is whether the effort spent editing a profile vs. editing an image is worth it. Editing the profile is definitely worth it to get an exact color rendering, but editing a profile do do image editing may not be. Not if you routinely need to tweak sat & contrast on a per image basis anyway...
          • 2. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
            rasworth Level 1
            Jeff,

            I agree, easy enough to create a preset in ACR to do the same. However I also believe global sat adjustment is a minimum requirement for any sort of profile editor, based primarily upon my experience with ICC profiles. I'm impressed with the new Adobe camera profiles, just looking to get that last piece of control.

            Richard Southworth
            • 3. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee
              Hi Richard, the color matrix tab is indeed a reasonable way to perform global saturation and/or hue adjustments. As Jeff noted, however, the idea behind PE is that it can perform very precise and selective color adjustments, so in general you'll find that doing global stuff is just easier to accomplish in CR/LR either using per-camera defaults or presets / saved settings.

              If you'd like to encapsulate it in a profile, though, try bumping up all three saturation sliders in the Color Matrix tab by the same amount.
              • 4. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                Level 1
                Deviating a bit from the topic I have found that tweaking specific colors in the editor causes issues of posterisation, when viewed at 100%. Any similar experiances, solutions.
                Anurag.
                • 5. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                  Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                  Please start a new topic, rather than burying your question in an unrelated thread, Anurag.
                  • 6. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                    rasworth Level 1
                    Bringing this thread back on topic, it strikes me that I don't really know what I'm asking for, i.e. what is the definition of "increasing global saturation"? So I brought in my cc image, white balanced, then loaded into Photoshop with no ACR adjustments (using the new Adobe Standard Beta 1 profile) and again with a +10 in ACR.

                    Changed the info palette to show HSB, turns out PS shows saturation in %. % of what? I'm familiar with the LAB based definition of saturation (distance of a vector from neutral out to the color in question for constant L), perhaps % is the ratio of same vector to the one out to the boundary. Or whatever. All I know for sure is there did not seem to be any rhyme or reason to the % increases of the 18 color patches.

                    Next did a PS global sat adjustment of +10 on the base image, and compared it to the one with +10 from ACR. Certainly closer, but not nearly equal, so even between ACR and PS the definition of "increasing global sat" changes.

                    So I guess I'll have to agree with Jeff, just bring the image into PS and do whatever makes it look "ok". Per Margulis, change to LAB and juice it by moving a and b, works great for really dull landscape shots, such as canyons. Adobe, is there any generally accepted standard for modifying global saturation, or is it just a crapshoot?

                    Richard Southworth
                    • 7. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                      Level 1
                      >Adobe, is there any generally accepted standard for modifying global saturation, or is it just a crapshoot?

                      There's a big difference when doing image edits in a linear gamma space and a gamma encoded space. Contrary to Margulis, I think it's foolish _NOT_ to use the tools of Camera Raw because you can not exactly duplicate the results in Photoshop (and sometimes visa versa)...and it's Camera Raw whose toolset is designed for working with raw captures. If you have Camera Raw open, making adjustments takes only moments and substantially reduces the time required in Photoshop...and for those things that Photoshop is uniquely suited for, why golly, when you click Open, you get the image with the CR adjustments, open in Photoshop for whatever other adjustments you may need. How cool is that?

                      Just to be perfectly clear, Margulis knows Photoshop...he's made a career out of writing and teaching about Photoshop. So, he's predisposed to develop processing routines for Photoshop. He's _NOT_ a photographer and doesn't have a photographer's sensibilities...it's also my experience that Dan doesn't really get much practice working with Camera Raw and his skills may be a bit, uh...underdeveloped? And that's fine. Photoshop is a powerful place to edit images of any kind. However, Camera Raw was specifically designed for working with raw, digital captures and you may as well take advantage of that and combine the power of Camera Raw with Photoshop.
                      • 8. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                        rasworth Level 1
                        Jeff,

                        No argument, my reference to LAB and Margulis was an attempt at humor, although I do find his techniues in LAB to be useful for a small subset of images. And I wasn't trying to exclude CR as the best place to add global tweaks such as sat, have created presets to do same.

                        It is interesting to me that there is no apparent "standard" or even conventional wisdom as to adjusting global sat. Just curious if any of the Adobe gurus can describe their philosophy.

                        Richard Southworth
                        • 9. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                          Thomas Knoll Level 2
                          Camera Raw uses what is probably the most "accurate" saturation adjustment, since it is working in a linear color space.
                          • 10. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                            rasworth Level 1
                            Thomas,

                            Probably starting to belabor the subject, but given the linear gamma space, presumably ProPhoto, how is the "saturation" of a given pixel defined, and more importantly if I slide the CR sat up 5 points how is each pixel modified? Or am I getting into proprietary areas?

                            Thanks,

                            Richard Southworth
                            • 11. Re: Using DNG Profile Editor to modify global saturation
                              It seems to me this issue could be overcome if you could use ACR to build initial profile by letting Acr also output an initial profile to be tuned in DNG profiler. I'm as happy as a PIG in it. Thanks Eric and Thomas. I was a bit peeved when it first came out but have worked out a bit of a work flo. Integrates well on Mac, by allowing you to keep a destination space open in photoshop. Still a little cumbersome but, hey, Its great. Tony Gwynn-Jones.

                              Ps Grew up in San Jose,in the 60s,when apples grew on trees. Googled my old home recently what happened to all the cherry orchards . Things are a lot quieter here in OZ. Cheers.