9 Replies Latest reply: Mar 25, 2009 11:55 AM by sglinert RSS

    Framemaker color definitions--New

    sglinert
      Okay. I am bewildered. I haven't done much with Frame and color, so when my company asked me to set up a 4C template, I figured I would give it a try. Here's the problem.

      I need an orange color defined as M80, Y100, as defined in InDesign. When I use these values in Frame's color definition dialog box, the color is not correct (way too bright) on the display, nor does it print to PDF correctly. When I examine the color with Acrobat's Print Production preview, I get M92, Y100.

      Okay, I know Frame is really an RGB-based program, so I went into Photoshop to get the equivalent RGB definition, which is R241, G90, B34. Well, Frame doesn't allow RGB numbers greater than 100%, so there's no way to enter these values.

      I am stumped. I get the same results with Frame 7.1, Frame 8, Acrobat 7, and Acrobat 9. I print to a .ps file and then use Distiller to create the PDF, leaving colors unchanged. The same color outputs correctly from Photoshop.

      Years ago I did some color work in Frame and don't recall having these problems.

      Any suggestions?
        • 1. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
          Seanb_us Community Member
          Always tell your version of software when asking for a hand. <g><br /><br />R241 isn't really 241% red, it's 241/255*100% red. So, you don't have to enter RGB values greater than 100% in FrameMaker.<br /><br />Even with FrameMaker 9, I'd recommend avoiding CMYK in FrameMaker and using CMYK only in EPS files created elsewhere and imported into FrameMaker by reference.<br /><br />What are you using the CMYK colors for?<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Sean
          • 2. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
            Community Member
            I echo Sean's suggestion that you try adding color by using referenced eps files that use the cmyk color. Frame passes these through to Distiller as is.

            There is another strategy to add color within FrameMaker; however, I cannot find a reference to the information that I used to do this. FrameMaker allows you to add custom inks to the application with an acf file. You define the custom colors in the acf file in both cmyk and rgb. So you can specify the rgb equivalents as they come from Photoshop or Illustrator, which are different than the ones used by Frame.

            Note that the acf file specifies rgb colors in 16 bits, not 8 bits. The formula I used was

            16-bit component = (8-bit component * 256) + 255

            The 8-bit component values are the ones you got from Photoshop.

            The acf file is added to the fminit > color folder within the FrameMaker programs folder.

            I tested this in my case by importing a square eps file painted in the cmyk color. Then overlapped it with a square created in Frame and painted with the custom rgb color. Printing on my color laser printer showed negligible difference. We have yet to print to an ink printer.

            I know this is vague, but maybe someone else can provide the link to a better explanation. THere might be something about this in the Frame help files.

            Good luck,
            Van
            • 3. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
              sglinert Community Member
              Thanks! I knew there had to be a simple answer. I fixed that problem by lying in Frame--I just adjusted the values until I got the correct output in Acrobat.

              I am using CMYK colors because my company told me to :)

              As I said, I got the same results in Frame 7.1 and Frame 8.
              • 4. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
                sglinert Community Member
                Thanks! I found a link to the info here:
                http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/9.0/Using/WSBDFAC4BF-8326-4715-8E24-8F67B33103CF.ht ml

                I fixed the orange and yellow colors by lying to Frame and they now output correctly to pdf. However, I am having trouble converting this color:

                C100 K40.

                The color prints on four plates, not two, in Acrobat. I can use Pitstop to adjust the color, but I would rather work with a color definition file, if possible. Can anyone help out here?
                • 5. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
                  Community Member
                  As you know, there is no unique conversion from rgb to cmyk. I do work in a workflow that needs color management, so I am just making guesses here. You might look into your Distiller settings. Maybe you can play with the color options, such as preserving or not under color removal. Or turning off color management.

                  Just guesses,
                  Van
                  • 6. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
                    sglinert Community Member
                    The best way, I think, it to just convert the color using PitStop and hope that at some point, Adobe brings Frame color management into the 21st century. Thanks so much for your help!
                    • 7. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
                      Arnis Gubins ACP/MVPs
                      Sue,

                      You also need to make an adjustment in a maker.ini setting that
                      affects how FM renders colours on output.

                      Find the entry for GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK in the [Preferences]
                      section.

                      Set it to: GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK=None

                      For more detailed info about this see:
                      http://www.techknowledgecorp.com/help/color.html at Tim Murray's site.
                      This info was originally posted by Mike Hardy a couple of years ago on
                      this site, but it's scrolled off now. Here's the original posting
                      content:

                      +++++++++++++++++++++

                      This post gives all the information I know about using colors in
                      FrameMaker
                      under Windows. It does not cover the use of separations. It instead
                      describes display, and direct output to color devices such as printers
                      -
                      including creating PDFs.


                      Color models
                      =====================================
                      FrameMaker supports three different color models:

                      - CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Key)

                      - RGB (Red, Green, Blue)

                      - HLS (Hue, Light, Saturation).


                      FrameMaker uses an algorithm to convert between each of these color
                      models.
                      For example:

                      RGB to CMYK:
                      C = max(R, G, B) - R
                      M = max(R, G, B) - G
                      Y = max(R, G, B) - B
                      K = 100 - max(R, G, B)

                      CMYK to RGB:
                      R = min(100 - K - C, 0)
                      G = min(100 - K - M, 0)
                      B = min(100 - K - Y, 0)



                      Color output
                      =====================================
                      Like most Windows applications, FrameMaker uses the Windows graphics
                      device
                      interface (GDI) for its output. The GDI handles both display and
                      printer
                      output.

                      Unfortunately, the GDI only supports the RGB color model. Any colors
                      that
                      are defined in other color models are therefore converted to RGB for
                      output
                      (see below).

                      The only exception to this is Encapsulated PostScript (EPS). When you
                      print
                      to a PostScript printer, or distill a PDF, the EPS is inserted
                      unchanged
                      into the PostScript. So any CMYK colors in the EPS get printed
                      unchanged.
                      This is the only way to output a CMYK color from FrameMaker under
                      Windows.

                      (Note that if you instead print to a non-PostScript printer, any EPS
                      files
                      are output using their preview bitmap, in RGB.)


                      Types of color in FrameMaker
                      =====================================
                      There are two types of color in FrameMaker:

                      - those defined by component values that you type in

                      - those defined by choosing a named ink from a color library.

                      FrameMaker handles these differently.


                      If you type in the component values
                      -------------------------------------
                      FrameMaker stores the color in the document as CMYK. If the color was
                      not
                      defined as CMYK, FrameMaker uses its own conversion algorithm. So the
                      CMYK
                      values that are stored are the same values that you see in the CMYK
                      view of
                      the Color Definitions dialog.


                      FrameMaker outputs the color as RGB. If the color was not defined as
                      RGB,
                      FrameMaker uses its own conversion algorithm. So the RGB values that
                      are
                      output are the same values that you see in the RGB view of the Color
                      Definitions dialog.


                      If you choose the color from a library
                      -------------------------------------
                      FrameMaker also supports color libraries that contain named inks.
                      Almost all
                      libraries specify both CMYK and RGB values for each ink. The important
                      thing
                      is that the mapping between the CMYK and RGB values can be very
                      different to
                      the algorithm that FrameMaker uses.


                      FrameMaker stores the color in the document as the color library and
                      ink
                      name. It also stores CMYK values for the color, for backup. When
                      FrameMaker
                      opens the document, it looks for the color library and ink name, first
                      in a
                      cache, then on disk:

                      - if it finds the color library and ink, it reads the CMYK and RGB
                      values
                      for the ink from the color library

                      - if it doesn't find the color library or ink, it instead uses the
                      CMYK
                      values that are stored in the document, exactly as if you'd typed them
                      in
                      (see "If you type in the component values" above).


                      FrameMaker outputs the ink as RGB. It can use:

                      - the RGB values for the ink that are stored in the library

                      - the CMYK values for the ink that are stored in the library,
                      converted to
                      RGB using its own algorithm.

                      This depends on the output device that FrameMaker is using, and the
                      GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK setting in the maker.ini file:

                      - If GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK is set to "Screen", FrameMaker does
                      screen
                      output by converting the CMYK values for the ink to RGB. For printer
                      output,
                      it instead uses the RGB values for the ink.

                      - If GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK is set to "Printing", FrameMaker does
                      printer and PDF output by converting the CMYK values for the ink to
                      RGB. For
                      screen output, it instead uses the RGB values for the ink.

                      - If GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK is set to "Printing&Screen",
                      FrameMaker does
                      all output by converting the CMYK values for the ink to RGB. It never
                      uses
                      the RGB values for the ink.

                      - If GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK is set to "None", FrameMaker never
                      uses the
                      CMYK values for the ink. It does all output using the RGB values for
                      the ink.


                      For the most WYSIWYG results with the predefined libraries, I'd
                      suggest
                      setting GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK to "None". This means that the RGB
                      values
                      in the color library get used for the screen - and they're probably
                      the most
                      faithful colors for this. The same RGB color will be printed, giving
                      you the
                      same color mismatches that you get for most other Windows
                      applications. And
                      you will often find that the RGB to CMYK conversion of your output
                      device
                      will give more faithful results than FrameMaker's own conversion.



                      Defining your own libraries
                      =====================================
                      Finally, note that you can define your own libraries. From the online
                      "Customizing FrameMaker" manual:

                      "ColorLib [in maker.ini] specifies the folder that contains color
                      library
                      files. These files are read in at startup and appear in the Color
                      Libraries
                      pop-up menu in the Color Definitions dialog box. You can add any
                      library
                      file formatted in the ASCII Color Format (.acf), version 2.1 or
                      earlier, or
                      in the Binary Color Format (.bcf), version 2.0. You can't use a
                      FrameMaker
                      product to save a .bcf library file."

                      A web search might reveal details of these file formats, but if not,
                      the
                      ASCII one is pretty obvious. Here's a file I put together:

                      ACF 1.0
                      My Color Library
                      LibraryVersion: 1.0
                      Copyright: © 2005 Mike Hardy. All rights reserved.
                      AboutMessage: Colors for my company
                      Names: Partial
                      Rows: 4
                      Columns: 4
                      Entries: 2
                      Prefix:
                      Suffix:
                      Type: Process
                      Models: CMYK RGB
                      PreferredModel: RGB
                      Data:
                      0 0.25 0.5 0.25
                      65535 32768 0
                      Burnt Orange
                      0.5 0.25 0 0.25
                      0 32768 65535
                      French Blue

                      You can then control exactly what RGB values FrameMaker uses for
                      display and
                      printing:

                      - determine the RGB values that you want to use for display, and note
                      down
                      the RGB values

                      - determine the RGB values that you want to use for printing, perhaps
                      by
                      trial and error in another application

                      - set the FrameMaker Color Definitions dialog to your RGB values for
                      printing, then change to the CMYK color model, and note down the
                      "equivalent" CMYK values

                      - define your own color library

                      - in your color library, define an ink with the RGB values you noted
                      for
                      display, and the CMYK values you noted for printing

                      - set GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK to "Printing"

                      This doesn't get you CMYK output, but it's the best you can do under
                      Windows. Note, however, that setting GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK to
                      "Printing" might not give such good results with the predefined color
                      libraries (see above).
                      • 8. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
                        Arnis Gubins ACP/MVPs
                        Sue,

                        Use the technique described by Mike Hardy to create your own custom
                        colour library to ensure that FM creates the expected colours.

                        Q: why are you manually doing the separations. This is now normally
                        done from composite PDFs at the ripping stage.
                        • 9. Re: Framemaker color definitions--New
                          sglinert Community Member
                          Oh my. Thank you so very much! This is priceless information.

                          I am not doing separations, I was just inspecting the conversion results in Acrobat using the Output Preview. A color C100, B40 should print on only the cyan and black plates, but instead, I get sort of a mish-mash of colors on all the plates. I will have to carefully study this information and make a color library for my company's colors.

                          I can't thank you enough!