9 Replies Latest reply: Sep 26, 2008 12:27 PM by are18 RSS

    Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question

    Michael_H._Phillips-25llKp Community Member
      Mordy,

      In Isolation Mode is it now possible to switch to Outline view? Same question
      applies to editing Symbols.

      --
      Michael

      mhphillips at gmail dot com
        • 1. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
          CupertinoFruit Community Member
          Yes, in CS4, you can switch to Outline view while you are in Isolation Mode. This applies to symbol editing as well.
          • 2. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
            Mordy Golding CommunityMVP
            Yep -- Isolation Mode is "all grown up" now :)

            :) Mordy
            • 3. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
              JETalmage Community Member
              Can you use Isolation Mode in CS4 to break into a Symbol Set?

              Try this:

              1. Symbol Sprayer: Spray a flock of birds. Now you want to randomize their size.

              2. Expand the Symbol Set. Now you have a Group of Symbol Instances.

              3. Enter the Group using Isolation Mode. Select all the birds.

              3. Object>Transform>TransformEach. Turn on Random and Preview Checkboxes. Set Horizontal and Vertical Scale sliders to 50%. Note that all the Instances are scaled the same. Random doesn't work.

              4. Cancel the dialog. Deselect just one of the Instances. Now try Transform Each again, with the same settings. Now the Random sizing works. Cancel the dialog without applying the transform.

              Now try it without using Isolation Mode:

              5. Leave Isolation Mode. Ungroup the Group. Leave all the birds selected. Try TransformEach again. Now the random sizing works, even though all the birds are selected.

              One wonders if this is related to other situations in which something fundamental in Illustrator's object structures seems to make it unable to distinguish between all subparts and the containing object. For example, the align points commands do not work if all the points of a path are selected.

              JET
              • 4. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
                Michael_H._Phillips-25llKp Community Member
                On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:51:29 +0100, Mordy_Golding@adobeforums.com wrote:

                > Yep -- Isolation Mode is "all grown up" now :)

                Good news. Thanks Mordy.

                --
                Michael

                mhphillips at gmail dot com
                • 5. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
                  Michael_H._Phillips-25llKp Community Member
                  On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:48:24 +0100, Galumph@adobeforums.com wrote:

                  > Yes, in CS4, you can switch to Outline view while you are in Isolation Mode.
                  > This applies to symbol editing as well.

                  Good to know. Thanks.

                  --
                  Michael

                  mhphillips at gmail dot com
                  • 6. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
                    Mordy Golding CommunityMVP
                    One wonders if this is related to other situations in which something fundamental in Illustrator's object structures seems to make it unable to distinguish between all subparts and the containing object. For example, the align points commands do not work if all the points of a path are selected.

                    This has nothing to do with Isolation Mode, JET. It has to do with how Transform Each works. The Transform Each function considers a group as though it were a single object. This allows you to perform Transform Each functions on groups of objects. For example, if you have several logos that are each made up of individual objects, you can scale them all simultaneously (with each logo using its own origin point).

                    Illustrator's Align functions work the same way. Basically, to those functions, a Group is treated as a single object. Isolation mode allows you to jump into a group (and in CS4, into a single path), but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a group, and hence, things like Transform Each still see it and treat it as such.

                    :) Mordy
                    • 7. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
                      JETalmage Community Member
                      > This has nothing to do with Isolation Mode, JET. It has to do with how Transform Each works. The Transform Each function considers a group as though it were a single object. This allows you to perform Transform Each functions on groups of objects.

                      The situation is trying to use Transform each while in Isolation Mode.

                      When in Isolation Mode, you are supposedly operating "inside" the Group. That is, if you normal-select an object, only that object becomes selected, not a Group. So by what logic does the selection change to "Group" just because you have all the individual objects selected while in Isolation Mode?

                      Do this:

                      1. Draw three ellipses. Group them.
                      2. Enter Isolation Mode.
                      3. Black pointer: select one ellipse. What's selected? Appearance Palette says Path.
                      4. ShiftClick another ellipse. What's selected? Appearance Palette says Path.
                      5. ShiftClick the third ellipse. What's selected? Appearance Palette says Group. I think that's logically unjustified. I'm still in Isolation Mode. And, it prevents you from performing other normal activities (such as the Transform Each scenario) on all the objects inside the supposedly still-isolated Group.

                      Consider: If you have three paths on a Layer, and you select all three, does the selection then change to Layer?

                      The behavior is very much like directSelecting anchor points of a 3-point single path, except that in this case, AI's Appearance Palette never tells you that you have an anchorPoint selected; it always says path. Nonetheless, the seletion is treated as you would expect: operations performed on the selection affect the selected points-- until, that is, you have selected all the points. Then operations (such as align) don't "think" you have three selected points, but act as though you have one whole path selected.

                      So you think that is logically consistent? You say "selecting all the points of a path is the same thing as selecting the whole object."?

                      Okay, then consider selecting all the segments of a path. Shouldn't that follow the same "logic." Yet it doesn't. DirectSelecting all the segmements of a path does not act the same as selecting the whole path when performing operations.

                      But the overriding fact is that Groups now have this special "Isolation Mode" disposition, in which you are supposed to be able to operate "inside" the Group. So it seems to me there is even less justification for the behavior there.

                      JET
                      • 8. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
                        Mordy Golding CommunityMVP
                        I talk about this often in my training materials, and more so when I do training in person. There's a HUGE difference in Illustrator between "selecting" something and "targeting" something. Your example of isolating a group of 3 circles is a PERFECT example of illustrating that concept. Are you familiar with Illustrator's "smart targeting" behavior? But that isn't really the core of our discussion here (although a worthy one to have nonetheless).

                        More so, it would appear that Isolation mode allows you to "override" the "selectability" of a group (I just made up that word but I hope it conveys what I'm trying to say), but it doesn't change the overall "structure" of the group. I guess from a conceptual point of view, Isolation Mode gives you these super powers that allows you to walk through walls to get to what is inside. Just because you can walk through the wall doesn't mean the wall doesn't exist -- it still does. And no one else (or no other feature for that matter) can walk through the wall -- only you can.

                        I see your point though. It would appear that on a very primitive and basic level, only your Selection tool knows what Isolation Mode is. No other function in Illustrator is aware of that concept. Meaning that Transform Each for example, isn't "aware" that Isolation Mode even exists. If it did, you could ask it to "ignore" the fact that normally the object is a group, but that right now, your document is in a state where the group should act like its contents, not the group overall.

                        :) Mordy
                        • 9. Re: Mordy: 1 Illustrator CS4 question
                          are18 Community Member
                          Mordy, actually what you say is not entirely true. If you use James's example and use the black pointer to select ONLY 2 of the circles, then it IS possible to do a Transform Each to the objects. The Group situation ONLY happens when EVERY object in the group is selected while in Isolation Mode.