Can this be made sticky please
In my opinion, although true, it's not polite enough to remain on top.
I think a notice of this sort does belong near the top of the forum, but you're right, Buko's turn of phrase leaves something to be desired.
I'm up to my eyes at the moment so even if I could carve out the time, I doubt I have the energy to do justice to the job. Would you care to attempt to compose a more acceptable alternative?
alright remove the last half of the last sentence.
Harsh, but in essence true.
Somebody who didn't do their homework is going to come in here complaining that the PM box says they can run Pagemaker in OSX Classic how come it won't work on the new Mactel the Mactel runs OSX. It doesn't say on the Box it won't run on the Mactels.
How many times did we see this type of post about Pagemaker not being OSX native?
Its going to happen again.
I'm trying to save somebody a few hundred dollars and get them to look for something else other than Pagemaker.
Buko, I know you are well intended. I did say that what you wrote is true -but also that I think your tone was unnecessarily offensive.
Dave, not being a native English speaker, I don't feel qualified to offer an alternative. Plus, at the time I am away from home, connected through the slow internal modem of an ancient and slow portable, and having to pay for every second I am connected. To top it all, I wouldn't like Buko to get angry with me; I think he is an excellent fellow. Sorry.
I wouldn't get angry.
and it seems Dave has removed the offensive bit already. thanks Dave.
I would like to add one thing, having just got an Intel iMac today.<br />This may help to recognise symptoms if people start posting them.<br /><br />If you have a program that requires Classic, and you manage to install<br />it on or copy it to an Intel Mac, you will see the icon overlaid with<br />a "stop sign" logo. If you try to run it, you will get "You cannot<br />open the application <name here> because it is not supported on this<br />system".<br /><br />While I haven't tried it, this fate is likely to hit the PageMaker<br />installer, so it isn't likely to get as far as being installed;<br />however, people might try copying it from an older Mac.<br /><br />Aandi Inston
After fighting with Classic and PageMaker on a "conventional" modern Mac running OSX, am wondering why anyone with any Mac with OS X.3 or later would buy PageMaker in this day and age instead of InDesign? If someone already has PageMaker and wants to move it onto a new Mac, I could understand it for cost control.
However, I consult with a newspaper client who, month after month, had Classic and PageMaker 7 "eat" files (corrupt them to the point of being unreadable and refusing to open them) at deadline. We switched to InDesign and that stopped happening. That isn't a MacTel machine, true, but we have had such a reduction in headaches since leaving PageMaker that InDesign has almost paid for itself in the equation of time = money.
2. Why does Adobe continue to sell PageMaker if it is obsolete?
>Why does Adobe continue to sell PageMaker if it is obsolete?
I've been asking this for the past 5 years.
You probably are right about the need to switch to In Design. Not because it is better than PageMaker (personally, I found it more cumbersome and therefore, decided to stick with my trusty old PM, which did everything I needed) . . . UNTIL I bought my MacIntel.
What a disappointment! The only apps it recognizes of those I regularly use (i.e., PM, Illustrator, Word and Photoshop) is the latter. And even if I were to consider plunking down more than I did for my new Mac to buy the Creative Suite, the Adobe sales rep with whom I spoke admitted to me that Adobe can't guarantee it will work on the new Mac. Any suggestion on the packaging that it will is inaccurate, because those boxes were printed before the MacIntel was released. Currently there are no patches and she did not expect any updated version of Creative Suite until next year.
So where does that leave a dedicated PM user like me? Limping along with my iMac G3 (OS 10.8.2/Classic) but a CD burner that no longer works and a PowerMac G4 (OS 9.2) with a DVD/CD drive that does not burn disks, and only reads non-commercial ones sporadically. My MacIntel was supposed to solve those problems!
With luck, by the time software is available for the MacIntel, I may be ready to buy it That's how long I expect it will take me to transfer the data from my iMac to CD disks. For now, all I can do is move it to the MacIntel via Firewire and burn it there. But since the MacIntel can't read PM files I then have to transfer the disks to the G4 for verification and if the CD drive balks at reading them, either test them on my iBook or comb thru every file ensuring that it is properly linked, but not "placed in the doc." (By the way, thanks to those of you who unraveled that problem for me. You were absolutely right. Your advice worked!)
My MacIntel fiasco taught me something else, too. Listen to my instincts, since they usually are right. Unfortunately, I allowed myself to get so caught up with all those nifty bells and whistles that I neglected my usual common sense. I shoulda' waited until all the kinks in this new product were worked out and software was available to use on it. Instead, what I have is an expensive desk ornament to remind me of my folly.
Sorry, that message was in response to John I. Livingzton (4-12-06)
>The only apps it recognizes of those I regularly use (i.e., PM, Illustrator, Word and Photoshop) is the latter.
>the Adobe sales rep with whom I spoke admitted to me that Adobe can't guarantee it will work on the new Mac.
Are you saying that you have a version of Photoshop that runs on your new computer, but Adobe said Photoshop CS.x may not work? What version of Photoshop are you running now?
I don't mean to be harsh, but when I bought my first Mac in 1992, the first thing the sales guy asked me was what software (and hardware) I intended to run, and if I had done any research as to whether it would run on the Mac I wanted to buy.
You may want to see if the seller has a return policy, and get a Mac more suited for your needs.
Sorry if I gave you the impression that I'm a new Mac user. I really am not. Have actually been chomping on Apples ever since the Apple II Plus (or maybe even earlier). Ad yes, I did ask about software compatibility.
I'll admit that i was in a bit of a panic when I visited the Apple store. The CD drive on my iMac died with a client's disk in its mouth, which it refused to release. although i did manage to nab it from its grasp eventually, the purpose of my trip was to see if they could repair it. Since they could not, my attention turned to the crowds around the new MacIntels, which one of the sales reps was glad to demo for me. It was he who assured me that Rosetta would bridge the gap between the old and new CPUs, although data processing would not take advantage of the speed of the new Mac. Since I've lived thru changing Mac architecture before, that did not bother me, so I assumed I was safe in switching upward.
<<Are you saying that you have a version of Photoshop that runs on your new computer, but Adobe said Photoshop CS.x may not work? What version of Photoshop are you running now? >>
That's what i am saying. The Adobe sales rep could NOT guarantee that it would work. I am currently using Photoshop 7.0, which does appear to work on the MacIntel, although to be honest, I have not tried. But it is the ONLY app that is not dimmed.
By the way, in case you are wondering why I have not upgraded Photoshop . . . My Service Bureau advised against it. I've forgotten why, but seem to recall it had something to do with avoiding releases with "odd numbers" and the fact that they were having problems with 9.0 at the time. Regardless of that, however, I'm satisfied with 7.0; in fact, sometimes even 3.0 works just as well (and faster).
>but seem to recall it had something to do with avoiding releases with "odd numbers"
You're thinking of avoiding odd-numbered Star Trek movies. ;)
There are programs that run faster (and/or better) in earlier versions on older computers than new programs on new computers. Since I'm using OSX, I avoid anything that has to run in classic mode. If I need to use PageMaker, I boot up my old G3 into OS9. If you want to keep using PM, you may want to look for an older model, at least as a backup to anything new that you need to run CS.
As I said, that's what I've been doing.
My G3 and iBook are still running both OS X and Classic, so I have no problem using PM or other older apps there. My challenge is just to save my docs to CD, so that if the day ever comes when when software that WILL work with MacIntel becomes available, I can retire my G3. I also have a G4 PowerMac with OS 9.2 networked to my G3, so am in pretty good shape with respect to using older software.
While I got off the track a bit, my post actually was in response to the poster who suggested trashing PM and switching to InDesign. My goal was just to point out that while it sounds like a good idea, it's not practical for those of us who rushed out to buy one of the new Macs.
My complaint is twofold: (1) That the Apple Store sales rep misrepresented the ability of the new Macs to provide interim support of existing software, via Rosetta. . . and (2) that Adobe not only decided to phase out stand-alone PM applications, but that it has not risen to the challenge of providing in a timely manner either a temporary patch or updated software GUARANTEED to work with the new Mac.
Adobe has stated that they are commmitted to providing universal
versions of its software. But to think that something like that can be
accomplished in a short period of time is simply unfair.
As for PM, for many people it won't even run decently in classic and
those that need to keep using it are sticking with old Macs running OS9.
You could likely find one on eBay for next to nothing.
>Limping along with my iMac G3 (OS 10.8.2/Classic) but a CD burner that no longer works and a PowerMac G4 (OS 9.2) with a DVD/CD drive that does not burn disks
>My challenge is just to save my docs to CD
Your short-term solution would be to check ebay for CD burner (probably pretty cheap these days) that will connect to your working G3 (SCSI, Firewire, USB, or whatever you have). In the long-term, it sounds to me like you are going the way of the Amish. They have no trouble getting around in horse-drawn buggies, so you should be able to use PageMaker until the last OS9-bootable computer goes out of existence. As long as you can find output devices and/or clients/printers that will accept your work product, you will be in business.
If you want to use newer computers with newer operating systems, you will likely need newer software.
I guess I'm still not making myself clear.
I am far from living like the Amish. My willingness to invest in the latest MacIntel is an example. It is the 4th new Mac I have purchased in the last 6 years and at least one of those has been upgraded signigicantly.
There's no need for me to look around for an older Mac or OS 9 on eBay. Two of mine are capable of running on that system; one already does and the other is on OS 10 /Classic.
I have no trouble outputting high-quality docs, since I have two high res printers (including one of the most recent color laser printers on the market); but when needed, my local service bureau and commercial print shop are more than willing and able to accept my orders.
Nor have I ruled out buying new software. It's true, I had counted on Rosetta bridging the gap for me until I scraped together enough $$$ for upgraded software, but since it can't, apparently have nowhere to go (except back to OS 9.2 or OS 10/Classic) . . . at least until Adobe releases a package it guarantees will work with the new Mac.
As for an external CD drive . . . believe it or not, I've already been there and done that before I bought my iMac. Can't remember why I finally got rid of it, except that maybe it was cumbersome to set up and operate. As I recall, it was a SCSI device, designed by Sony for a PC, but configurable for a Mac. Anyway, whatever deficiencies it had gave me an excuse to get an iMac soon afterward. Having done that once and leaping into a MacIntel before looking, this time I'm inclined to put my $$$ into InDesign (when it becomes available), instead of throwing more good money after bad.
Hope I don't sound obstinate. I'm really not. Just frustrated that my plans to update my equipment were sidetracked by technology itself.
You can but a new internal super drive for about US$50.
Check out OWC
new internal or external drives. Usb2 or firewire will run rings around
any scsi cd/dvd drive, But I would still recommend a new internal dvd drive.
Thanks, Claudio but . . .
That's not what i was told. I contacted at least 3-4 service shops. All agreed a new drive would cost anywhere from $200 - $300 plus tax. What I don't remember at this point was whether or not that figure included labor, which all estimated at anywhere from $100-$150. That's why I decided to put the $$$ towards a new computer.
Set-up, software Installation, troubleshooting, etc. don't scare me . . . but I know my limits. When it comes to hardware installation, I call a professional.
And to Jay . . . I happen to agree with you. Having dealt with SCSI peripherals, there's no way I would go back to daisy chains, terminators, etc. I have no problem working wih USB or Firewire devices, but all the cables under my desk already look like a rabbit's warren. For that reason alone, an internal device would be my first choice, if it were not for the situation described above.
If you won't work on your own computer, you can hardly complain about
Just hazarding a guess here look at Apple's line up:
Only things left to go to Intel: the iBook (which is waaaay overdo for an update) and the G5 towers, which are, still the fastest Macs. My guess is that Apple will beat their timeline by a year. Remember Apple said it would be early 2007 when the switch would be done, now it looks like it will be done this year.
So where does that leave the blame? Soley at Adobe's door IMHO. I agree that software rewrites are difficult and time consuming. I also know people at Adobe they are great people who are extremely dedicated, however:
1) The CEO should never have been on stage prodding Steve Jobs What toke you so long? Especially when Adobes own software wouldnt be ready for 18-24 months.
2) Did Adobe not really expect this reaction from the customers?
3) Did Adobe think people would be mollified with We are not going back to patch CS2. I agree it would divert resources from CS3, doesnt mean its going improve relations with the customer base.
From a personal standpoint this effects me very little as we are not upgrading our G4s and G5s until Q3 next year.
Im a supporter of Adobe, but Adobe attempting to lay the blame on Apple saying that Apples tools are not up to par as has been done before looks like simple finger pointing He did it, he did it. If that is indeed the case they CEO Chisen shouldnt have been digging Jobs. Because as it stands right now Jobs could easily turn around within the next few months and say Adobe what took
Sorry, Jay . . . but I'm not complaining about the labor costs..
I have professional skills for which clients pay me.
Unfortunately, they don't include plumbing or electrical work. When my home needs that kind of work, I know enough to call a specialist just as I hope folks will call on me for projects I can perform better than they can do themselves.
The same is true when it comes to working on the innards of my Mac. I don't know how to do it, so I am prepared to pay for the services of those who do. I don't begrudge them the cost of their labor. That's THEIR specialty and livelihood. It's also probably less costly in terms of time, frustration and errors, than if I were to try to do it myself.
Are they overcharging? Maybe. But who knows. However, when 3 or 4 independent service techs ALL tell me an appropriate replacement CD drive will cost approximately $200 retail (including markup) plus tax and labor, I'm inclined to believe that's probably a reasonable estimate. But to me, it still does not make sense to put that kind of $$$ into a technically obsolete 3-4 year-old cpu, when a new state-of-the-art replacement costs relatively little more.
Thanks. Willmark . . .
I think you got the point I was trying to make.
Basically, the problem was of my own doing. I was under pressure and bought on impulse. Although it was highly uncharacteristic for me (or maybe just for that reason) . . . it also was fun to be indulgent . . . at least for the moment. But once that glow wore off, the frustration set in. And for that, I both blame and do NOT blame Adobe and Apple.
I agree with you. Although Adobe might have been caught a little off-guard with Apple's earlier-than predicted product release, if it had its ear to the ground (as I'm sure it did), it certainly knew MacIntel was on its way. And if Adobe did not want to rush release of CS3, it could have come up with some sort of patch for the interim. As you suggested, not doing so certainly is not going to improve relations with its customer base.
Similarly, on Apple's end, suggesting that Rosetta would bridge the architectural gap (as Classic did a few years ago) was a great selling feature. But who do they think sustained dtheir company during the lean years and still account for the bulk of their customer base if not designers, writers and page layout professionals? And what products do they rely on mostly if not Adobe software and/or Quark Express, which I rarely hear mentioned these days.
If they did not test Rosetta's ability to convert that sofware, they should have. They would have discovered that Rosetta doesn't work with the most commonly used apps. Even more insulting, judging from the last product specialist I spoke with at Apple, they now believe it's up to their customers to find a workaround. Huh? Like what? How does one convert hundreds of (Mac) PM files to work on OS 10 (Tiger) if Adobe has phased out PM; can't guarantee that CS2 wil do itl, and Apple can't even get Rosetta to read them?
So much for the value either company places on customer loyalty.
To be honest, at this point my ruffled feathers are settling down. My initial anger is now just a sad sense of annoyed acceptance whenever I look in the direction of my new Mac. Thanks to my other equipment, I am still able to work, and will probably buy the next version of CS when it is released. Meanwhile, I'm keeping my eyes and ears open in case anyone discovers that elusive workaround Apple talks about.
By the way, i don't think the iBook is scheduled for intel conversion. If I'm not mistaken, it was released at the same time as the MacIntel.
>By the way, i don't think the iBook is scheduled for intel conversion. If I'm not mistaken, it was released at the same time as the MacIntel.
I think it is. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/04/12/apple_colour_macbooks/
It's also the lead item (in full color0 if you click on www.apple.com
> Why does Adobe continue to sell PageMaker if it is obsolete?
I got my US$50 figure here:
and believe me, changing an optical drive is a very easy task. Plus, if I remember correctly, you will be offered links to instructions, mostly from Apple (no time for checking myself now).
>and believe me, changing an optical drive is a very easy task.
You obviously never tried doing this in a G4 Cube!
To add a little more: my G4 Cube started to fail in a variety of
interesting ways, all of which seemed to point to a bad disk. So I
opened it up - not the simplest of tasks, once you need to get into
the heart of the cube - for picrures, see
http://homepage.mac.com/tracer302/bluecube/PhotoAlbum24.html - and to
my surprise found it wasn't the hard disk (since a replacement showed
the same symptoms). On a whim I disconnected the optical drive, and
That left me with a broken drive, still with (naturally) the system CD
inside it. It took a long time and a number of surprising tools to get
the drive open and rescue the system CD. There was no way the drive
was repairable now!
So, I looked into buying a broken down Cube on eBay for spares, but in
the end, I just left the drive out - carefully taping over the CD slot
to stop people dropping disks into a void. I already had an external
DVD writer, but you can pick up an external CD writer for $90.
External drives work well with a Mac. You can even boot from an
external hard drive, which you can't directly do with Windows. (Never
tried to boot a Mac from an external CD, but that would be needed if
you ever had to reinstall Mac OS).
Aandi, I was obviously refering to c schatzman's Powermac G4, not about any Mac model. Not even to his iMac, which I probably wouldn't touch either. :-)
Ah . . .
Sorry I've gotten everyone so riled up.
Aandi, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has learned the folly of do-it-yourself repairs. I'm not afraid of tackling new challenges, but also know my limits. Sometimes it really is more cost-effective to pay someone who knows what s/he is doing.
And Claudio . . . I'm glad you clarified that you were suggesting a replacement for my PowerMac (G4) . . . NOT my iMac. If I were really stuck for an optical drive, I might be willing to do that. At least just the thought of opening the case does not stop me in my tracks, as it does for the iMac G3.
But as things stand now, I don't really think it is necessary. The G4 drive does work, just a little balky. But last month a posted a question on that topic and you guys were all very helpful. Following your advice, I've been checking the CDs that were giving me trouble and found that in most cases it WAS due to the way I had/had not linked and placed graphics, just as several of you had tried to impress upon me.
I've been remiss in not reporting back sooner and expressing my thanks, but had been intending to do that as soon as I took care of reviewing and burning the data I wanted to save from my iMac. Unfortunately, it's just taking longer than I had expected, due to work interruptions and the number of backups and duplicate copies scattered around my mini-network.
For the moment though, I am in relatively good shape. since my G4 is the oldest of my Macs, I still don't think it pays to rush out and replace the drive, since I now understand its limitations, but if it does poop out entirely before new software is available for my MacIntel, I may still do it. Thanks for the prodding and encouragement there.
By the way, "cs" is not a "he." Actually, I'm a grandmom and a pretty hip and computer savvy one at that, I am told.
Not sure what you just bought, can't be bothered to reread the thread, but whatever it is I'm sure there is still a PPC equivalent and its most likely a little cheaper than the Mactel. Taking the Mactel back and getting the G4 or G5 version would allow you to keep using all your old software will let you use the new UB software when its released and when you need another Mac you will be in a better position to take advantage of the Mactels because you will have more software that will run native.
Thats what I would do.
> c schatzman wrote: By the way, i don't think the iBook is scheduled for intel conversion. If I'm not mistaken, it was released at the same time as the MacIntel.
Nope the iBook is still PPC at this stage of the game.
OH MY GOD!
I'm glad I'm not the only one complaining about the untimely death of pagemaker. I am a dual user- I have PC's and Mac's in my house.
I have gone through the transition of Wordstar to Ami Pro to Microsoft word.
I have gone through the transition of Visi Calc (on an apple II) to Lotus 1-2-3 to Excell.
I will be damned if I'm going to switch from Pagemaker to In Design.
I can run pagemaker on a pc. And that's where I go everytime I want to use it. But my main computer is this mac I'm typing on right now.
I WANT TO RUN PAGEMAKER ON A MAC!!!!!!
Is that too much to ask?
AM I A MONSTER FOR WANTING SOMETHING SO SIMPLE?
Because I said so. wrote:
I will be damned if I'm going to switch from Pagemaker to In Design.
Then install it on a contemporary (i.e. old) Mac and your problems are over.
Iechyd da! John
20:41 23/02/2010 23/02/2010 GMT